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Advise needed on larger scale manske Options
 
NamRa
#1 Posted : 9/1/2015 12:27:03 PM

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Hi there my friends.

I have been boiling 4 kilos of syrian rue.
this left me with 190 grams of "harmalas" after the first basification and 170 grams after second vacuüm flitering and basifying again.

I performed quite a few manskes and most of the times I fololow the instructions of the "tao of rue".
Most times the second some times the first way.

to fresh up the memory.

Step 6 - Manske
Once you have redissolved your alkaloids in a minimal amount of fresh, hot vinegar and then filtered the solution, it's time to perform the manske.
There are three ways you can perform the manske.
The first and the "official" way is:
Recommended
Take a note of how many ml's you have and add 10 grams salt per 100ml solution. Make sure your solution is hot before you add the salt, otherwise the harmalas might fall out too soon. Allow to cool slowly.

The second way by Phlux-:
Prettier Crystals
Take note of how many ml's you have and saturate the same amount of fresh distilled water with salt. Add them together and allow to cool slowly. If the first solution wasn't overly saturated with alks, you should get needles that are similar to what's pictured to the right. This seems to work better with an excess of water/vinegar to allow the crystals more room to grow.

The third way:
Completely saturate the solution with salt and allow to cool.
Not Recommended for Final Manske due to the higher chance of more salt contamination. It's better to use one of the above methods, preferably Phlux's on the final manske and push any remaining alks out by reducing the solution further after you filter the harmala hcl.



None of examples take into account the amount of "harmalas" used.
ITs about volumes of water/dissolved harmala in water vingar.

Step one would be to dissolve the 170 grams in water vinigar en filter it again.

But then, in what ratios would you go and continue the manske in this case ?
Or am I just confusing myself ?
Dissolving the 170 grams in water already will give me like 2/2,5 liter of solution and from there just follow the tao of rue ?

I just want to be sure I will get most of the harmine and harmaline crystalized.

Please, I need some advise.


I did 2 boils with whole seeds.
I am gonna skip the third.
First boil 160 grams second 20 grams




NamRa attached the following image(s):
170.jpg (155kb) downloaded 245 time(s).
 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
ouro
#2 Posted : 9/1/2015 5:11:56 PM

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Hi NamRa,

first, I would consider if I actually want to manske at all. It is definitely not a necessary step to get a useful medicinal extract. The minor alkaloids have an extremely low concentration and they are medicinal in their own right.

Phlux-'s advice should work fine - dissolve harmala fb in minimal acidic water, add the same volume of boiling salt saturated water and let it cool. It is a crude rule of thumb but it is reliable. I think I calculated it adds around 20 percent more salt than actually required but its easy to remember.

That much harmala would last me decades. You could always start with a smaller batch to get more confidence if you want to manske. This begs the question: why did you extract 4 kilos?
 
NamRa
#3 Posted : 9/1/2015 6:34:11 PM

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Hi ouro.
thanks for reply.

I like to Purify. And in this picture the other alkoloids dont fit in.
pure harmine harmaline is what it is about
The manske step does the job.
its not just about getting the "goodies"

I have plenty confidence because I have done this multiple times.
This time I am looking for some reasurance because I have some doubts.

Why 4 kilos ?
Because I have a hundred liter pot to boil them Big grin


Where I live harmine and harmaline are legal.
I want to provide this medicine to others.
I like to smoke it and so do many others.

So it is more easy to go for a big batch instead of 4 smaller ones


Thanks for you help.
I will go plux's way.

to keep the acidid water to the minimum, at what ph should all the harmala's be completely dissolved, 5,5 or lower ?
 
DeltaSpice
#4 Posted : 9/2/2015 4:39:46 AM

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NamRa wrote:
I like to smoke it and so do many others.

Hi, How do you smoke it and how much do you smoke and what are the effects?
I ask because I have Rue Alkaloids that I no longer use. Smoking it only had an effect if I followed it up with some enhanced leaf.
thanks
 
NamRa
#5 Posted : 9/16/2015 5:33:12 PM

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Hi Delta.

I prefer to smoke it infused on herbs.
Just like a changa but without the Divine Master Teacher Laughing

Smoking a small pipe I like a lot.
Sometimes a bong.

I find it interresting you feel nothing from smoking it.
Maybe you should smoke more.

Normally I smoke it in low dosages.
This gives me calmness, peace of mind, its a grounding energy.

In high dosages I find myself glued to the floor, desoriantated/drunk en deeply inmerged with visuals and audiotory effects.

 
xa
#6 Posted : 9/16/2015 6:40:54 PM

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NamRa: sorry but how much you smoke of changa without spice ? how much harmala for get some effect ? or what ratio did you have (harmalas:herbs) ?
i'm interested too, to made some experiment with harmala and various herbs (not only spice related)
thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
 
FLeP
#7 Posted : 9/17/2015 1:45:58 AM

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DeltaSpice wrote:
Smoking it only had an effect if I followed it up with some enhanced leaf.
thanks


Stop

Smoalk moar



Xa, you can make any old changa blend, just leave out the dmt. If the ratio of herb to harmala is 1:1 you can definitely mix that changa into some plain mullein and roll a joint. Takes me a third to half a joint this way to get floored. With dmt involved I get floored and euphoric.
 
pitubo
#8 Posted : 9/17/2015 1:52:29 AM

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Freebase harmalas can also be dissolved into hash oil (with a little heating). Very mellow.
 
DeltaSpice
#9 Posted : 9/17/2015 4:02:38 AM

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I tried a Rue joint because Mr.Pitubo was saying about its medicinal qualities in another thread.
That is rough compared to vine. A bit heady. Or maybe I'm not used to it.

Vine gets me stoned every night and its a really nice stoned.
 
FLeP
#10 Posted : 9/17/2015 6:39:35 AM

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Rue's prevalent alk is harmaline. Vine's prevalent alk is harmine. Vine also contains an additional prominent alk, THH. In most of the literature I've read and in my limited experience I have found that harmine is much less sedative than harmaline and THH add a special something that I haven't quite put my finger on. This would explain the difference in effects of Rue vs. Vine.
 
pitubo
#11 Posted : 9/17/2015 2:05:59 PM

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DeltaSpice wrote:
I tried a Rue joint

I hope you didn't smoke whole rue seeds, that sounds awful. Even adding powdered freebase to a joint is suboptimal, because the poweder is not very sticky and you'll be sucking in quite a bit of unvaporized powder. Hash oil when heated dissolves the freebase and provides a good matrix for vaporization.

FLeP wrote:
Rue's prevalent alk is harmaline.

The amounts of harmaline and harmine in rue are quite close. Discounding the amounts of harmine is not factually correct.

FLeP wrote:
Vine also contains an additional prominent alk, THH.

Not all vine contains significant amounts of THH. Some vine was reported in scientific analysis to contain hardly any THH.

FLeP wrote:
In most of the literature I've read and in my limited experience I have found that harmine is much less sedative than harmaline and THH add a special something that I haven't quite put my finger on.

I'm not aware of scientific literature comparing the subjective effects of the various harmala alkloids. I've seen a lot of subjective claims to that effect on web forums such as this, but I'd classify that as forum lore, not as objectively substantiated fact. It might as well be fashion statements.
 
FLeP
#12 Posted : 9/17/2015 2:43:43 PM

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pitubo wrote:

I'm not aware of scientific literature comparing the subjective effects of the various harmala alkloids. I've seen a lot of subjective claims to that effect on web forums such as this, but I'd classify that as forum lore, not as objectively substantiated fact. It might as well be fashion statements.


Excuse me, you're right. My information comes from internet lore and personal experience. MY rue contains almost negligible amounts of harmine compared to harmaline and it is a trend I have noticed elsewhere with folks who are separating their harmine from harmaline in rue extractions. In any case I and many other people have noticed a very distinct difference in the effects of rue full spectrum extract versus caapi as well as distinctive differences between harmine and harmaline and even more distinction with addition of THH. Maybe they are fashion statements to someone who doesn't stand one place or another on the subject. Perhaps you could benefit from some self-experimentation Big grin
 
pitubo
#13 Posted : 9/17/2015 4:28:30 PM

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FLeP wrote:
MY rue contains almost negligible amounts of harmine compared to harmaline

This is not my experience with my rue and my processing of it.

Anyway here's a few scientific studies that I cursorily checked and that found these numbers for harmine and harmaline respectively:

4.3 % 5.6 %
(source: beta-Carboline alkaloids in Peganum harmala and inhibition of human monoamine oxidase (MAO))

1.84 % 0.25 %
(source: Partial least squares-based multivariate spectral calibration method for simultaneous determination of beta-carboline derivatives in Peganum harmala seed extracts.)

0.44 % 0.096 %
(source: High-performance thin-layer chromatography densitometric method for the quantification of harmine, harmaline, vasicine, and vasicinone in Peganum harmala)

0.851 % 0.087 %
(source: Quantitative and Qualitative Analysis by HPLC of Major Peganum harmala Alkaloids at Different Stages of Development)

These studies do not confirm your findings, to the contrary even: most find a lot more harmine than harmaline.

FLeP wrote:
and it is a trend I have noticed elsewhere with folks who are separating their harmine from harmaline in rue extractions.

Would you care to point me to some references for this trend?

FLeP wrote:
In any case I and many other people have noticed a very distinct difference in the effects of rue full spectrum extract versus caapi as well as distinctive differences between harmine and harmaline and even more distinction with addition of THH. Maybe they are fashion statements to someone who doesn't stand one place or another on the subject.

I am merely pointing out the need for objective scientific data. "I and many other people have noticed" is not objective scientific data. It does not disqualify your experience in any way to state that it is not objective scientific data. I am not trying to disqualify your experience. I am not trying to attack you personally. All I want to establish is substantiated and objectively verifiable data.

It's fine with me when people have visions of elves, clowns, snakes, tigers or their mother in law for all I care. That is all part of subjective experience. Nobody should tell another person they mustn't have such experiences. Nor should anyone tell others they must have such experiences, or even suggest that they should.

When it comes to physical substance data, we should however aim for referenced, repeatable and objective data. When making factual statements about the subjective effects of objective substances like hamaline, harmine and tetrahydroharmine, we should aim to do so too. Can you point me to literature that evaluates these subjective effects in a systematic and scientific manner? You wrote about "reading literature" on the subject. I am assuming that by "literature" you didn't mean "prose".

FLeP wrote:
Perhaps you could benefit from some self-experimentation Big grin

What makes you question me on that?
 
DeltaSpice
#14 Posted : 9/18/2015 12:58:34 AM

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pitubo wrote:

I hope you didn't smoke whole rue seeds, that sounds awful. Even adding powdered freebase to a joint is suboptimal, because the poweder is not very sticky and you'll be sucking in quite a bit of unvaporized powder.


I have Rue Alks . I rolled it like I do my vine joints.

Take one King-size blue Rizla .
Add some fresh Mullein, equivalent in size to a 3rd of a cigg.
Then add 2 eggs (Joke)
Add 100 to 200 mg of Alkaloids .
Also use a hand rolling filter, the carbon type are nice.
Roll very loosely otherwise the Alks will clog air flow.

I'd like to add this :
I came to a conclusion from my experiences and smoking vine Changa today.
Rue Changa is a singular experience .
Vine Changa is part of a course .
Cheers guys Thumbs up
 
FLeP
#15 Posted : 9/18/2015 3:38:46 PM

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Ok, Pitubo. I think you have caught me with my shorts on backwards on a couple things here. While I am finding studies showing higher amounts of harmaline than harmine in some cases, the difference is not significant. I don't know if it's my seeds or what but hardly anything crashes out of my teas at around ph 8 where I thought the harmine was supposed to precipitate. It usually takes a higher ph to crash out my alks leading me to believe what I had was mostly harmaline. This made sense as I had seen people mention that rue was mostly harmaline. I may have mostly harmaline but I'm not at all sure at this point.

You are right, proper rigor should be applied when studying and I have wandered a bit far into the realm of subjectivity here. Thanks for keeping it real.
 
pitubo
#16 Posted : 9/19/2015 8:09:03 PM

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Hi FLeP, thanks for the reply and the compliments.

I wrote quite a lengthy piece of text, previewed and edited it a few times and then closed the browser tab before actually posting Sad

Anyway, a lot of the text concerned the scientific studies that I have been reading and analyzing. I think I found some interesting bits, but they don't really fit this thread anyway, so I'll write it up in a new thread if I feel like retyping it.

Your results from the harmine and harmaline separation possibly not coming out right may well be caused by the tek being less than perfect at its current stage. Or maybe I should say that the underlying ideas are good, but that the practical execution is harder to get right than it seems.

I guess that pH measurement can be a bit tricky in (relatively) concentrated solutions of organic chemicals such as harmala alkaloids. Consumer grade pH meters may not be the best equipment for this purpose and pH paper or other indicators tend to get swamped by the color of the harmala solution. Even if performed correctly, the separation procedure has to be repeated several times to get a reaasonably good isolation. Finally, it is really hard to determine the quality of the end result without decent analytical equipment, which few people have access to. So don't feel too bad about it not working as well as you would have liked. Lets all cooperate to improve things!
 
Jin
#17 Posted : 9/20/2015 3:12:01 PM

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in most rue extraction teks its advised to do the manske atleast 3 times to get somewhat pure harmalas

however this tek https://wiki.dmt-nexus.m...Crystals_from_Syrian_Rue

there is only 1 manske , and then harmalas are dissolved in alcohol and evapped

so does this work , will the harmalas be pure ?

also is it ok to use acetone instead of alcohol

illusions !, there are no illusions
there is only that which is the truth
 
pitubo
#18 Posted : 9/21/2015 6:58:57 PM

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Jin wrote:
in most rue extraction teks its advised to do the manske atleast 3 times to get somewhat pure harmalas

however this tek https://wiki.dmt-nexus.m...Crystals_from_Syrian_Rue

there is only 1 manske , and then harmalas are dissolved in alcohol and evapped

so does this work , will the harmalas be pure ?

That tek dates from 2007. It is in fact the oldest harmala tek at the wiki. The most recent one is The Tao of Rue Extraction. I assume that that one has the best information based on the most up to date insights.

Reading the tek you quote, it appears to me that it would give results that are not as good as the Tao tek. The alcohol step will help to get rid of solids like plant dust and microscopic sand particles, in general anything that is not soluble in alcohol. But there are many other substances in rue seeds, apart from the harmala alkaloids, that are very soluble in alcohol. These would not be filtered out. In my experience, one Manske salting doesn't clean up rue tea very well.

Jin wrote:
also is it ok to use acetone instead of alcohol

I never tried to dissolve harmala HCl in acetone, did you already try this yourself? Some rough experimenting suggests that 40 grams of harmala HCl will dissolve in 1 liter of 95 % ethanol. I don't know about acetone solubility of harmala HCl. At least freebase harmalas are reported to be less soluble in acetone than in ethanol.
 
 
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