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1.5mg/kg harmala alkaoid all thats needed to activate oral dmt? Options
 
The Day Tripper
#1 Posted : 6/20/2012 4:52:09 AM

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Quote:
Approximately 1.5 mg harmala alkaloids per kilogram body mass is all that is needed to activate oral DMT. [13]


Found that here-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmaline

Assuming they are talking about harmine/harmaline extracted from rue, i am curious as to what ratios in terms of mg/kg body weight work for nexians in activating oral pharma. With relative reference as to how far from threshold they were to get the affects.

Lets see if we can figure out a nexus contributed experiment into the validity of that claim on wikipedia. Get enough submissions and crunch some numbers.

So to start, if you don't mind, post a mg/kg ratio that works for you in activating oral dmt, the relative length of the experience, and a + to ++++ rating of how strong of a dose ABOVE what is needed to activate dmt is. Also what process you used to extract (fs/mankse, and method of ingestion and time taken to ingest).

For me-

130mg harmala hcl (rue manske) dissolved in water and drank immediately.
59kg
2.2mg/kg
+
4hrs

170mg harmala hcl (rue mankse) dissolved in water and drank immediately.
59kg
2.9mg/kg
++
4-6hrs

Ill add more as i have more time to conduct trials both lower and higher than the above 2.

Remember this is not about dmt other than what dose of harmalas activates a known amount of dmt from past pharma experiences. IE use an amount of dmt that you know will be enough to be noticable with sufficent mao-a inhibition.


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Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
alzabo
#2 Posted : 7/29/2012 11:30:55 PM

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I don't understand your plus to quad plus rating system.
These aren't the droids you're looking for.
 
d*l*b
#3 Posted : 7/29/2012 11:49:01 PM

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alzabo wrote:
I don't understand your plus to quad plus rating system.

The Shulgin Scale–

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulgin_Rating_Scale

?
D × V × F > R
 
Sandgrease
#4 Posted : 7/30/2015 10:15:17 PM
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Gonna do a fat bump.

I wish more people would express dosages in this most scientific of ways.
It gives you more context.
 
Auxin
#5 Posted : 7/30/2015 11:55:16 PM

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But is mg/kg the most useful and 'scientific' of dosage measurements for ß-carbolines?
The alkaloids activity is not a function of body mass or total blood volume. The MAO inhibition occurs as the ß-carbolines wash over the lining of the stomach and small intestine, right? So weight should matter far less than is the case for other drugs.
I weigh 52 kg, by a simple shift in diet I could gain 100 kg without changing the surface area of my stomach and small intestine. I doubt I would need 3 times as much rue.

People dont measure athletes foot cream by mg/kg
 
Sandgrease
#6 Posted : 7/31/2015 12:10:53 AM
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Harmala alkaloids are kind of a weird issue because they s
are simultaneously both an maoi and a psychoactive substance all their own. I meant in general mg/kg statement of dose is a great way to express doses, especially in trip/experience reports.

 
Jees
#7 Posted : 7/31/2015 9:12:53 AM

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A 1.5 works for me as a bare minimum.

A 2 is better, gives now more depth and duration, I consider this as a minimum for a good session, the harmalas are now clearly a component of the experience too without taxing the ingestion system.

A 2.8 to 3 is my usual, never re-dosed with this, harmalas are now a profound part of the experience. The taxing on the ingestion system becomes noticeable.

* * *

If there are just days between sessions, the 2 does great.
If it was a week or more in between, then 2.8 to 3 is the habit.

YMMV
 
tregar
#8 Posted : 7/31/2015 11:37:38 AM

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(1) Moderate and Strong activating amounts of harmine (pg 250 of 639):"Pharmacotheon: Entheogenic drugs, their plant sources & history" by Jonathan Ott:

Quote:
(1) For Experiment 12, I increased the qty of harmine base to 120mg, and ingested this along with 35mg DMT free-base. By 45 minutes after ingestion,it was obvious the dose was psychoptic, and I experienced a distinct DMTeffect building to a peak at 1:05 after ingestion and maintaining a plateau until 1:50, with the effects largely dissipated by 3 hoursafter ingestion. This experience was of comparable intensity toEXPERIMENT 6 involving ingestion of a similar amount of DMT (30mg; 0.38mg/kg) with extract of 4g of harmel seeds, and we may conclude that 120mg of harmine (1.5mg/kg) will effect sufficient in vivo MAO-inhibition to render DMT active orally with a longer duration and about half the potency of inhaled DMT vapor.

To confirm these results, I decided to make another experiment with the harmine/DMT combinations, slightly increasing the amounts of both compounds.Accordingly, I prepared a capsule containing 160mg of harmine base;2.0mg/kg) and 40mg DMT base (0.5mg/kg).

This capsule of 160mg harmine base and 40mg DMT base was ingested in EXPERIMENT 13 and indeed provoked a proportionally stonger DMT effect with the first effects felt in 20 minutes, building to a peak by 1:30 after ingestion with a plateau until 2:40, and clearly diminishing effects at 3:00 after ingestion. By 4:00 after ingestion there were no effects, nor after-effects. All in all, the experience was quite pleasant and similar to EXPERIMENT 3 in Ecuador with about 50 leaves of DMT-containing Psychotria viridis per dose.

While harmine is ok by itself with leaf, caapi is even better since it contains not only harmine but thh. Back then Jonathan Ott did experiments with harmine only and not combinations of harmine and thh as found in caapi brews.

The Internationalization of Ayahuasca

https://books.google.com...nathan%20ott&f=false

The new entry in the above book around page 105 from (once again) the Legend Jonathan Ott is a good read as well.



You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
Sandgrease
#9 Posted : 7/31/2015 5:36:28 PM
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I just got 2 grama of freebase Rue extract. Super fine tanish/grey powder.

I'm looking to ease into oral Harmala. Like, noticeable Harmala effects, not just mao inhibition.

Would you recommend 2mg/kg mixed into OJ or lime juice and hot water?
 
Jees
#10 Posted : 7/31/2015 6:58:30 PM

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Sandgrease wrote:
...Would you recommend 2mg/kg mixed into OJ or lime juice and hot water?
Looks fine, you could put it in a gel cap too. The FB form will dissolve harder than HCL form, but that's not a problem to swirl down some undissolved.
 
tregar
#11 Posted : 9/8/2015 11:23:56 AM

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From Caymanchem:
Quote:
THH inhibits monoamine oxidase (MAO)-A and MAO-B with much weaker potency (IC50s = 74 nM and >100 μM, respectively) compared to the companion harmala alkaloids also found in B. caapi: harmaline (Item No. 10995; IC50s = 2.5 nM and 25 μM, respectively) and harmine (Item No. 10010324; IC50s = 2 nM and 20 μM, respectively).


You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
pitubo
#12 Posted : 9/9/2015 11:25:02 PM

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tregar wrote:
Would not recommend dissolving the freebase rue extract into orange juice

I'm not familiar with the "additional effects" you describe with OJ. I did notice that gel caps can cause unreliable timing of the harmala digestion. For me a drink is more dependable. I get strongest and most reliable effects from a drink that has both dmt and harmalas dissolved together, similar to classic ayahuasca.

To dissolve freebase alkaloids with minimal added loading, you could put the weighed amounts of alkaloids into a glass, add a little bit of hot water and then add aa few drops of vinegar. Stir for a minute and if there is still a lot of undissolved matter, add a few more drops and stir again.

20 standard drops equals 1 milliliter;
1 ml vinegar of 5% acetic acid concentration equals 0.05 ml of acetic acid;
0.05 ml acetic acid weighs almost 0.05 grams or 50 milligrams;
1 mole of acetic acid weighs about 60 grams, 50 milligrams contains 0.83 millimole acetic acid;
1 mole of harmine weighs about 212 grams, 0.83 millimole has about 177 milligrams;

So that 20 drops of vinegar will salt and dissolve 177 milligrams of rue extract freebase, or 1 drop for every 8.8 milligrams of freebase.

tregar wrote:
Although 150mg of harmine will work for activation, prefer 170 to 180mg of harmine

Some say that more is even better.

tregar wrote:
In the first link, chart on page 2, typical brew amount was 100ml, so looking at the chart, many of the "best entries" contained 180mg of harmine and about 180mg of thh found during analysis of the Caapi which was brewed for a long time by the leaders of the Vegetals (Shuar, UDV, Santo Daime, etc.)

Many of the least best entries contain almost no THH. Caapi vine and/or brew does not always contain spectacular amounts of THH.

Anyway, IMHO the THH issue is somewhat off-topic for the OP's question.

To respond to the original inquiry: From the reports that I have read here on the nexus forum and from what have personally noticed it seems that the particulars of individual's metabolism play an important role. The uptake, efficacy and metabolism of harmala alkaloids and its effects in the body on other alkaloids depends on many more factors than simply body weight.

Nevertheless I would like to encourage every forum member to experiment with:
- varying amounts of harmala alkaloids and dmt;
- delay between ingestion of harmalas and dmt;
- forms of ingestion, like gelcapped ground plant, filtered tea or purified extract;
- entire dose at once or at spaced intervals.

It would be great to have more data points. Please experiment with various combinations so that we can build up a more complete knowledge base for pharmahuasca use.

Personally, I have found 250 mg or more of harmalas and 50-75 mg dmt, taken together in the form of extracts to work best for me, and that dividing and spacing the doses gives a longer during and more manageable plateau instead of a wild rollercoaster peak.

 
DeltaSpice
#13 Posted : 9/12/2015 1:09:10 AM

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I'm doing 300mg caapi alks tomorrow with 60mg spice.

That's makes it like 4/kg.

Sounds like I'm over doing it?

I got these dosage ideas from the Nexus
 
Jees
#14 Posted : 9/12/2015 8:34:33 AM

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pitubo wrote:
tregar wrote:
Would not recommend dissolving the freebase rue extract into orange juice

I'm not familiar with the "additional effects" you describe with OJ. I did notice that gel caps can cause unreliable timing of the harmala digestion. For me a drink is more dependable...

I concur on the gel caps, timing becomes more unreliable. This for both harmalas and/or spice.

Taken both at once or 15 or 30 minutes delay, can't make up my mind about it, so that lets me think it doesn't play much of a role.

I was missing out on that OJ arguments? First time I hear about that.

Whether a dose works or not is not like an ON-OFF, somewhere it starts to work but is that sufficient for the personal likes? Sometimes I want a 1.5 and other time I want a 3 mg/kg, they serve different style experience. Spice rate follows accordingly.
 
 
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