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A new, important idea--must read! Options
 
bufoman
#81 Posted : 6/19/2009 4:45:17 AM

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SWIMfriend wrote:
bufoman wrote:
DMT fum is very soluble in water. If one wants to use a salt there should be no problem in using DMT fum as opposed to other salts.
SWIM thinks the freebase should be used as the salts are not absorbed well. They may work but if one could nebulize the Free base it would likely be absorbed quicker and and at higher concentration than the salt.


According to a test that warrensaged did--the results of which were give 69ron's imprimatur--DMT-fumarate is not going to soluble ENOUGH, unfortunately (in water). DMT-acetate will probably work FAR better. Ideally, we'd like to be able to dissolve a dose in 8-10 drops of water...

....but see next post.



Was this DMT fumarate recrystalized or from FASA. As the FASA crystals are a large portion fumaric acid which is not very soluble in water.
This fact can be used to seperate DMT fum from unreacted fumaric acid.

Obviously this would be important. I am surprised 50mg doesn't dissolve in 10 drops of water. Fumarate is the salt used for IV studies it is very water soluble.

Also the problem of using a salt is not being addressed. I think this will ultimately be a problem as absorption will be significantly attenuated by use of the salt over the freebase.
 

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SWIMfriend
#82 Posted : 6/19/2009 5:10:20 AM

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bufoman wrote:
...Also the problem of using a salt is not being addressed. I think this will ultimately be a problem as absorption will be significantly attenuated by use of the salt over the freebase.


That certainly needs to be addressed--and I think the actual answer is going to be demonstrated by experienent. Also, perhaps Garulfo's report of solubility of the freebase is going to make the question moot.
 
bufoman
#83 Posted : 6/19/2009 5:24:36 AM

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It should be tried as sometimes things that are not predicted do happen however it is very likely that the FB would be the better bet.
 
WSaged
#84 Posted : 6/19/2009 6:15:17 AM

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bufoman wrote:
Was this DMT fumarate recrystalized or from FASA. As the FASA crystals are a large portion fumaric acid which is not very soluble in water.
This fact can be used to seperate DMT fum from unreacted fumaric acid.

Obviously this would be important. I am surprised 50mg doesn't dissolve in 10 drops of water. Fumarate is the salt used for IV studies it is very water soluble.


The DMT-Fumarate I used for the test, was from the D-Limo/FASW tek, using Chacruna leaf.
It was filtered over & over & recrystallized a number of times, using acetone the first 2 times, then just water 3 more times.
It's damn clean..white crystal fumarate.
I'm pretty sure there isn't any FA left in there.

I was way surprised at how much it took to completely dissolve it too!!
And that was with lots of stirring & swirling as well.

Those IV test the "Spirit Molecule guy" did (can't remember his nameEmbarrased ), used synthesized DMT-Fumarate & it was dissolved in saline. And probably waaaay more than a few drops of saline, plus they did a flush of the IV line with more saline.
More liquid then this will allow.


WS
All posts are fictional short stories depicting the adventures of WSaged!! None of these events have actually happened and any resemblance to any real persons or incidents is totally coincidence!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
SWIMfriend
#85 Posted : 6/19/2009 6:22:54 AM

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warrensaged wrote:


Those IV test the "Spirit Molecule guy" did (can't remember his nameEmbarrased ), used synthesized DMT-Fumarate & it was dissolved in saline. And probably waaaay more than a few drops of saline, plus they did a flush of the IV line with more saline.
More liquid then this will allow.


WS


And they also talk about people getting DEEP IN before they had even completed the injection. That is somewhat in line with your figure: they probably had to use a 5cc syringe, which you can't just shoot into the typical vein in a single fast bolus.
 
WSaged
#86 Posted : 6/19/2009 6:38:34 AM

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SWIMfriend wrote:
warrensaged wrote:


Those IV test the "Spirit Molecule guy" did (can't remember his nameEmbarrased ), used synthesized DMT-Fumarate & it was dissolved in saline. And probably waaaay more than a few drops of saline, plus they did a flush of the IV line with more saline.
More liquid then this will allow.


WS


And they also talk about people getting DEEP IN before they had even completed the injection. That is somewhat in line with your figure: they probably had to use a 5cc syringe, which you can't just shoot into the typical vein in a single fast bolus.


In fact I remember him describing the actual amount of time he would take to complete the initial injection.
I don't remember for 100% sure, but I think it said they would take 30sec to fully push the plunger all the way down. Then another 30 sec for the flush.

Is there any reason why we couldn't inhale saline? Not that it is gonna hold much more than water, I guess...

WS
All posts are fictional short stories depicting the adventures of WSaged!! None of these events have actually happened and any resemblance to any real persons or incidents is totally coincidence!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
SWIMfriend
#87 Posted : 6/19/2009 6:48:29 AM

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Saline would be fine to inhale--but you'd probably be able to dissolve more DMT salt into distilled water--that didn't ALREADY have salt another dissolved in it.

I'm also encouraged by Garulfo's observation.

I don't have any spice available to experiment with, but when I do, I will get definitive answers to these questions, and have an answer about the details of nebulizing DMT.

I'm keen to do it because I think--when the method is perfected--that it will allow for FASTER administration of the desired dose. Any trouble with "breaking through" seems always to involve not getting a large enough dose, quickly enough. I'm also enthusiastic about avoiding hot vapors (although water filtering helps with that). Finally, I'm thrilled about a possible way to easily take mescaline and psilocybin/psilocin by inhalation. AND, also, experimenting with COMBINATIONS of DMT, Mesc, and Ps. Who knows what interesting experiences could result...
 
WSaged
#88 Posted : 6/19/2009 7:09:48 AM

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SWIMfriend wrote:
Saline would be fine to inhale--but you'd probably be able to dissolve more DMT salt into distilled water--that didn't ALREADY have salt another dissolved in it.

I'm also encouraged by Garulfo's observation.


Right!

Using some kind of essential oil could also provide a very nice scent & flavor to go along with the ease of inhalation.
DMT vapor tends to smell like old lady musk...

And the breakthrough issue would also be helped by knowing that you are actually receiving the entire dose that was intended.
We will be able to figure out the exact amount that equals a full-on experience for each individual.
When vaporizing, you never know how much is lost to burning it, exhaling it, excess vapor floating away etc...
This will be a revolutionary way to ingest DMT if it can be figured out correctly. However it is a bit expensive...Confused

WS

All posts are fictional short stories depicting the adventures of WSaged!! None of these events have actually happened and any resemblance to any real persons or incidents is totally coincidence!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
SWIMfriend
#89 Posted : 6/19/2009 7:48:18 AM

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warrensaged wrote:
... However it is a bit expensive...Confused


I have no doubt that sometime down the road I'll convince myself to figure out a way to build one cheaply and easily. The circuitry is ridiculously simple...
 
bufoman
#90 Posted : 6/19/2009 8:16:21 AM

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warrensaged wrote:
bufoman wrote:
Was this DMT fumarate recrystalized or from FASA. As the FASA crystals are a large portion fumaric acid which is not very soluble in water.
This fact can be used to seperate DMT fum from unreacted fumaric acid.

Obviously this would be important. I am surprised 50mg doesn't dissolve in 10 drops of water. Fumarate is the salt used for IV studies it is very water soluble.


The DMT-Fumarate I used for the test, was from the D-Limo/FASW tek, using Chacruna leaf.
It was filtered over & over & recrystallized a number of times, using acetone the first 2 times, then just water 3 more times.
It's damn clean..white crystal fumarate.
I'm pretty sure there isn't any FA left in there.

I was way surprised at how much it took to completely dissolve it too!!
And that was with lots of stirring & swirling as well.

Those IV test the "Spirit Molecule guy" did (can't remember his nameEmbarrased ), used synthesized DMT-Fumarate & it was dissolved in saline. And probably waaaay more than a few drops of saline, plus they did a flush of the IV line with more saline.
More liquid then this will allow.

WS


Strange. How much water was used to recrystlize? If SWIM used a lot than some of the fumaric acid may have been carried over. But it sounds as though it was clean. It just seems strange as 50 drops is a mL. The only other thing SWIM could think of is did SWIY give it enough time to dissolve before adding more water? ? Maybe try finaly powdering the crystals and giving ample time to dissolve although SWIMS experience it dissolves quickly.
Also are other alkaloids present in that extract?

Using regular FASA. SWIM has done HEAVY acetone washes on FASA and still is 25% more fum. See the alteration of FASA final step in the FASA folder. The unwashed can be up to 75% fumaric acid!!! Although this depends on a variety of variables. Just because it is white doesn't mean much as Fumaric acid is white. To re-crystalize only a small amount of water is needed. The recrystalized DMT fum will be big chunky transparent crystals like ROCK CANDY. (Use a small amount of water, do 3 washes, Let it slowly evaporate at Room Temp (NO HEAT) and decant water before it all it gone to seperate the higher purity crop)


There is about 50 drops in a mL. 50mg of pure DMT fum should dissolve in way less than this. The fum is used in all IV studies I am aware of althugh maybe it only needs to be soluble 50mg/mL or something...for IV use.
 
bufoman
#91 Posted : 6/19/2009 8:49:07 AM

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Well SWIM would have to agree. To great surprise SWIM FOAF just calculated that the solubility of pure DMT fumarate to be 57mg/mL. Which is just about what is reported by others. Sorry for the doubt but SWIM was surprised she guessed that it would be more soluble as it is used in IV studies but apparently it only needs to be soluble relatively. SWIM would like to see the solubilities for the other salts as well.

A large IV dose is 30mg which would only require about a 1/2mL. More to be safe avoid crystallization from occurring. A insulin syringe would be capable of handling this amount although it would take a little to inject it. I see no need for a saline flush.
 
SWIMfriend
#92 Posted : 6/19/2009 8:53:00 AM

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Actually, a drop is typically between .05ml and .06ml. Believe it or not, "drops" have now been "standardized" into the metric system: 1 drop = .05ml exactly. Which means 20 drops per ml.

I'm thinking lately, though, that I may be worried over nothing about geting hyper-small quantities of solvent. My reasoning was based on a nebulizer output rate of between 0.25ml-0.5ml per minute--which would be 5-10 drops per minute. I wanted to be able to take a full dose in a minute or less. But....

Lately I'm realizing that there is nothing to stop up from storing the output in a resevoir before inhaling. Indeed, this is often down with asthma "inhalers"--apparently it allows for better uptake into the lungs. I'm imagining maybe two 2-liter soda bottles, with the bases cutoff and connected together: the fog goes into one neck, and after the volume is filled you inhale it out the other. If you filled up that 4 liter container BEFORE you even BEGAN to inhale, then time isn't an issue anymore. You probably wouldn't even need a second hit to get a full dose--but if you did, your "nebulizer time" would be measured only by the time needed to fog the SECOND dose.

Remember that the standard "3 hits to breakthough" is dependent on the RATE at which DMT vaporizes by standard methods (and if it gets TOO hot it burns rather than vapes). IOW, it's not NECESSARILY a law of physics that a full dose has to necessarily be three lung-fulls: if you had the vape all in one resevoir, you might indeed be able to hit it all at once (which would undoubtedly make for the ultimate possible experience, as well).

It's too soon to be certain, but the nebulizer, or nebulizer plus resevoir, might end up allowing administration potential better than anything yet experienced.
 
bufoman
#93 Posted : 6/19/2009 8:56:41 AM

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I guess it depends what the drop is coming from. What is the standard instrument for dropping a drop? Very happy In chemistry labs we typically say 40 drops from a glass pipette is a mL. I wonder though if this is accurate now. I will have to check it out.
 
SWIMfriend
#94 Posted : 6/19/2009 8:57:14 AM

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bufoman wrote:
Well SWIM would have to agree. To great surprise SWIM FOAF just calculated that the solubility of pure DMY fumarate to be 57mg/mL. Which is just about what is reported by others. Sorry for the doubt but SWIM was surprised she guessed that it would be more soluble as it is used in IV studies but apparently it only needs to be soluble relatively. SWIM would like to see the solubilities for the other salts as well.

A large IV dose is 30mg which would only require about a 1/2mL. A insulin syringe would be capable of handling this amount although it would take a little to inject it. I see no need for a saline flush.



Thing is, though, that's the MAXIMUM solubility. Nobody's going to inject a solution that's close to precipitating.

I don't believe that Strassman was injecting only 1ml into his subjects. That conflicts with his descriptions that it took a significant amount of time to actually make the injections.

I believe 69ron when he says that DMT-acetate and DMT-HCl are SO soluble that they're seriously hygroscopic! I'm ready to bet that (given that description), a full dose of either one is going to dissolve in 3-4 drops of distilled water, max.
 
bufoman
#95 Posted : 6/19/2009 9:04:59 AM

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No of course not but an insulin syringe can hold about 1mL. Thus this is plenty of room for a huge dose and then some. It would be perfectly soluble in twice the saturation point. Strassman had IV hook-ups, he infused over 30 seconds and then did a 15 sec flush of the line. No indication of the solution concentration is given.

This was almost def automated and the time doesn't mean anything. This is a medical controlled setting. One could easily inject a full dose of IV DMT Fum in 1mL of saline, no problem. It could also be done in less than 30 seconds, although to be safe it would have to be done pretty slow.

Subjects reported effects from within 5 to 10 seconds of the start of the infusion.
 
Xstacy
#96 Posted : 6/19/2009 11:56:32 AM
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Wow this was an amazing read. I did not see a few questions others have posted so I will ask them again:

Ethanol? - from a liquor store? any brands? I think someone said everclear? - 95%?

Did anyone try this to see how many drops etc.

I do not have a scale to weigh out 50mg of DMT.
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Garulfo
#97 Posted : 6/19/2009 12:54:51 PM

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I think that the "reservoir" idea is the best bet (with a small hole at the other side). It would probably require higher doses than with smoking for two reasons : there are obviously some loss in the process at several levels from nebulizer to lungs, and if a essential oil is used, the mix of it with DMT may increase the DMT absorption time.

SWIM tried to vaporized (smoke in a tube) the mix of 2 drops of essential oil and 50 mg of DMT... it was just impossible to smoke all that in a short time. There is a kind of 'throat barrier' that hurt althought the feeling on the lungs is quite pleasant (like menthol fresh effect). However this is very different from nebulizing so it's hard to compare.

I would avoid ethanol as solvent. Ethanol is quite irritative on mucosas.
 
SWIMfriend
#98 Posted : 6/19/2009 6:39:45 PM

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Garulfo wrote:
I think that the "reservoir" idea is the best bet (with a small hole at the other side). It would probably require higher doses than with smoking for two reasons : there are obviously some loss in the process at several levels from nebulizer to lungs, and if a essential oil is used, the mix of it with DMT may increase the DMT absorption time.

SWIM tried to vaporized (smoke in a tube) the mix of 2 drops of essential oil and 50 mg of DMT... it was just impossible to smoke all that in a short time. There is a kind of 'throat barrier' that hurt althought the feeling on the lungs is quite pleasant (like menthol fresh effect). However this is very different from nebulizing so it's hard to compare.

I would avoid ethanol as solvent. Ethanol is quite irritative on mucosas.


1) Absorption time: I'm thinking this won't be an issue. Nebulizer droplets are around 5 microns in size; when they attach to lung tissue and spread out, you have about as fine a dispersal as is possible.

2) Ethanol: there have been clubs/bars awhile back that "served" alcohol by nebulizer! People got WILDLY drunk almost instantaneously, but I don't think there were reports of irritation. The quantities we will be using are insignificant.
 
bufoman
#99 Posted : 6/19/2009 6:50:51 PM

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Ethanol would be a great carrier and the freebase could then be used.
 
SWIMfriend
#100 Posted : 6/19/2009 6:52:06 PM

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bufoman wrote:
Ethanol would be a great carrier and the freebase could then be used.


I've posted the question before, but haven't gotten an answer yet: How many drops of alcohol to dissolve a dose of freebase?
 
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