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Thread Journal - Potency of variety of Mescaline containing cactus Options
 
mori
#1 Posted : 5/24/2009 3:34:58 PM
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Hi folks,
Basis for investigation:
Thanks to techniques suggested from 69ron's posts, high performance Mescaline extraction is possible using a simple process.

There are several questions which come to my mind, and all research draws a blank.

This thread will contain answers to the following questions:

Which sections of a live cactus contain mescaline:
SWIM will perform extraction on the follow sections of the cactus separately, to determine the yield of mescaline by wet and dry weight:
Skin
Wet green
Wet white
Hard core
Hard core fibourous surrounds (last cactus SWIM harvested had cables of fibre which reminded him of nutmeg seeds)

Which varieties of cactus contain what potency of mescaline (all samples will be a non stressed healthy variety):
Trichocereus Pachanoi (4 foot 10cm diameter sample)
Trichocereus Scopulicolis (4 foot 15cm diameter sample)

Most important is the Scopulicolis because there is no documentation on this variety, and it has a much more productive volume than Pachanoi.

Expect a couple of posts of SWIMs results in a few weeks.
 

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'Coatl
#2 Posted : 5/28/2009 7:49:19 AM

Teotzlcoatl


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Wow... posted Sunday, May 24, 2009 and nobody has said anything.

Quote:
Which sections of a live cactus contain mescaline:
I will perform extraction on the follow sections of the cactus separately, to determine the yield of mescaline by wet and dry weight:
Skin
Wet green
Wet white
Hard core
Hard core fibourous surrounds (last cactus i harvested had cables of fiber which reminded me of nutmeg seeds)


There is an analysis in Trout's Notes (you really should buy that book if your interested in this work) but another would be VERY interesting!!! PLEASE report back as soon as you have some results!!!

Quote:
Which varieties of cactus contain what potency of mescaline (all samples will be a non stressed healthy variety):
Trichocereus Pachanoi (4 foot 10cm diameter sample)
Trichocereus Scopulicolis (4 foot 15cm diameter sample)

Most important is the Scopulicolis because there is no documentation on this variety, and it has a much more productive volume than Pachanoi.


It's very important that you understand that every CLONE (not every species) has it's own unique profile of psychoactive compounds and potency, these vary with age, stress, environment and other conditions.

So... document you plants extremely well! Take pictures! Name the clones! Should you find a good one propagate it and spread it among the community!!!

Best of luck! THANKS FOR DOING THIS TYPE OF WORK!!!
WARNING: DO NOT INGEST ANY BOTANICAL WHICH YOU HAVE NOT FULLY RESEARCHED AND CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED!!!

I am Teotzlcoatl, older cousin of Quetzalcoatl. My most famous physical incarnation was Nezahualcoyotl, but I have taken many forms since the dawn of the cosmos. In this realm I manifest as multiple entities at a single time. I am many, I am numbered. I am few, but more than one. I am a multifaceted being, a winged serpent with many heads. We are Teotzlcoatl.

"We Are The One's We've Been Waiting For" - Hopi Proverb
 
burnt
#3 Posted : 5/28/2009 9:05:41 AM

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Remember to assure that sample to sample extraction is done quantitatively. This is hard to do with full on alkaloid extracts hence why we see such a variety in yields and reported concentrations.

This is often why when people plant analysis they just extract a small amount of material in a very simple crude extract maybe clean it up and then analyze by some chromatography of spectroscopic method. Anyway enough rambling and good luck.

 
'Coatl
#4 Posted : 5/28/2009 9:10:20 AM

Teotzlcoatl


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Thanks for the input Burnt. I have no idea what the hell you just said.

Laughing

Maybe a little.... maybe...
WARNING: DO NOT INGEST ANY BOTANICAL WHICH YOU HAVE NOT FULLY RESEARCHED AND CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED!!!

I am Teotzlcoatl, older cousin of Quetzalcoatl. My most famous physical incarnation was Nezahualcoyotl, but I have taken many forms since the dawn of the cosmos. In this realm I manifest as multiple entities at a single time. I am many, I am numbered. I am few, but more than one. I am a multifaceted being, a winged serpent with many heads. We are Teotzlcoatl.

"We Are The One's We've Been Waiting For" - Hopi Proverb
 
Infundibulum
#5 Posted : 5/28/2009 9:46:50 AM

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He said that alkaloid extraction to purity is neither the best nor the common route for determining the concentration of alkaloids in a given plant or plant tissue.

People usually use mass spectropetry which does not require much purification other than some simple crude extraction, it is quanitatively (i.e. you can "measure" the amount of your chemical in question) and it's very reproducible.

Downside is that most people cannot have a mass spectrometer in their house and even if they did they wouldn't have a clue on how to operate it.

Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
mori
#6 Posted : 5/28/2009 9:52:26 AM
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'Coatl wrote:
Wow... posted Sunday, May 24, 2009 and nobody has said anything.


Yah.. I figured the best threads grow like stalegtites.

'Coatl wrote:
It's very important that you understand that every CLONE (not every species) has it's own unique profile of psychoactive compounds and potency, these vary with age, stress, environment and other conditions.


True; SWIMs suspicions are two fold.
The Scorp is undocumented "assumed" to be the same as a Pacahnoi. The cost of grown Scorp are cheaper than Pachanoi in SWIMs location by a factor of .5 - .7
The Pachoanois in SWIMs local neck of the woods seem to be elusively low in potency. SWIM downed 2 foot of dried cactus the other day (100 pills shells) without even minor effects (crazy guy he is).
He's getting frustrated.

So science will answer SWIMs question. How much mescaline is in the cactuses..
My next idea is to get a chromatography column and separate each of the other molecules. Does anyone here have any idea (besides HPLC or mass spectronomy) how to ID a molacle from from a Thin Layer Chromatography (TLC) if some suspect ingredients are known (common to cactus)

'Coatl wrote:
Best of luck! THANKS FOR DOING THIS TYPE OF WORK!!!


Theres another way? Smile
Ironically these are big plans; as SWIM is still learning the finer parts of this trade.

Update 1:
SWIMs progress is staggered. SWIMs accurate scale doesn't get delivered until next week, so SWIM didn't weigh the separate components of the length of scorp he carved up last night; however the total wet weight was 3.8kg of wet cactus length; will update shortly on length (about a good 2.3 foot).
SWIM has separated the very outer skin (the waxy underskin is being counted with the green parts of the cactus this time) - [yet to weigh will update this post when got scales]

SWIM was quite dissapointed with the scorp, as although the cactus is beefier (less folds and more cylindrical, more volume) and SWIM thought that would translate to more mescaline, but the green layer is much thinner than SWIM expected (3-5 mm at bottom, 5-10mm at the top) much less than pachanoi. SWIM supposes this is because of the less length of the circumference of the surface.
As it is, the "green" section SWIM was hoping to segragate had a lot more of the white flesh in it this time. Live and learn, SWIM should have used a apple peeler from the outside. much messier, much more precise!
Also got my eye on a dehydrator. SWIM's worried that the oven at half of 155f is too hot for mescaline.

The skin is cut up ready to go, dried in about 2 hours of air..
The green is cooking in oven open a crack at an unmarked temp of half of 155f.
The white is drying slowly in long sections.

SWIM doesn't have a good scale for the weight of wet, and will have to work off dry weights unfortunately.
SWIM will fill the holes of this process on cactus v2.0

Incidently SWIM in a blow to the sensitive mescaline successfully got the perfect 79 degree setup for his Soxhlet Ethanol Mescaline extraction. But its very energy expensive (and very wet as it involves lots of water boiling).
Suspend the solvent recepticle in water bath, immersing the flask in water.
supply enough energy to keep the water at 82-85 degrees not more than 90, and the ethanol processes through the soxhlet like a dream. Technically the solution won't reach dangerous levels because the boiling water whilst its in contact with the flask, its feeding the ethanol to boil (continuously). If (hazard the thought) that the water boils down (as it will as the water is evaporating at sub-boil temperatures) the water will loose contact with the water and the heat circuit is broken and your mescaline is safe!
Now need a cistern for my bath lol. thinking copper pipe or somefin.

SWIM's Solvents arrive Friday; and he's looking forward to trying a purely chemical extraction. thanks be to 69ron's friend's assitance.

Brian
 
mori
#7 Posted : 5/28/2009 10:08:09 AM
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Infundibulum wrote:
People usually use mass spectropetry which does not require much purification other than some simple crude extraction, it is quanitatively (i.e. you can "measure" the amount of your chemical in question) and it's very reproducible.


Well I hear ya. I'd love one, so would my anon SWIM. I looked it up last night the cost on ebay... Between 5k and 30k for one "sold as is". Tell me why someone would pay 30k for something that is (and I quote) "Sold AS-IS for Parts/Repair, no way to test."

However... I'm certain that if you had a chart with comparible weights or polarability figures (i think i made that one up) you could do it lo tech. ya know... The way they used to do it. before those new fangled compuwhatzits.

Does anyone in the group have a MassSpec that could give us a run down on what they should cost? Hazards pitfalls?

I hear both of your points.. ideally i'd use both techniques, column chrom and a mass spec.. identify, separate, identify. but any other way of identifying a molacule without using HPLC or Mass Spec? or is this chemists used to spend years "synthesizing" a molecule from plants?
 
mori
#8 Posted : 5/28/2009 10:14:52 AM
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burnt wrote:
Remember to assure that sample to sample extraction is done quantitatively. This is hard to do with full on alkaloid extracts hence why we see such a variety in yields and reported concentrations.

This is often why when people plant analysis they just extract a small amount of material in a very simple crude extract maybe clean it up and then analyze by some chromatography of spectroscopic method. Anyway enough rambling and good luck.


Well assuming this is a pure extraction, MHCL and only MHCL (a big ask for a cactus original solution which may have any number of alcoloids in it) SWIM should be able to easily get a yeild against wet and dry weight measurements. even girth and volume.

SWIM doesn't have an accurate scale yet, so it won't be against wet this time. Girth, topology and volume may be recorded for later studies. Although this is somewhat useless info.

SWIMs ultimate goal is the mescaline though. He can't wait!
 
burnt
#9 Posted : 5/28/2009 5:19:36 PM

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For sure when making mescaline from cacti there are other compounds present. SWIM checked with a GC-MS (haha and yea don't go looking for this equipment on ebay its very sophisticated) once with alks from peyote. There was other alkaloids even in the mesc HCl even after cleaning it with acetone. So its not pure. But pure enough for most purposes like eating! Shocked

Anyway what I am trying to say that there is very little point in doing a side by side comparision of cacti unless you are doing it quantitatively. Most people are not capable of doing such a study especially in their kitchen.

Not trying to discourage but just saying your results may not mean anything. But go for it anyway because you can probably at least at the end of the experiments say what plant contains more or less but not accurately by any means.


 
'Coatl
#10 Posted : 5/28/2009 5:31:18 PM

Teotzlcoatl


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Quote:
The Pachoanois in SWIMs local neck of the woods seem to be elusively low in potency. SWIM downed 2 foot of dried cactus the other day (100 pills shells) without even minor effects (crazy guy he is).


It's most likely the "Predominant cultivar" of Trichocereus pachanoi... you need a NON-predominant cultivar (a clone of T. pachanoi which is not the predominant clone) these are often much more potent! PM me for a vendor!

Check out my Cacti thread for more info!!!

WARNING: DO NOT INGEST ANY BOTANICAL WHICH YOU HAVE NOT FULLY RESEARCHED AND CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED!!!

I am Teotzlcoatl, older cousin of Quetzalcoatl. My most famous physical incarnation was Nezahualcoyotl, but I have taken many forms since the dawn of the cosmos. In this realm I manifest as multiple entities at a single time. I am many, I am numbered. I am few, but more than one. I am a multifaceted being, a winged serpent with many heads. We are Teotzlcoatl.

"We Are The One's We've Been Waiting For" - Hopi Proverb
 
burnt
#11 Posted : 5/28/2009 5:43:44 PM

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Is there a way to tell the difference morphologically coatl? SWIM has been starting a cacti collection and hopes SWIM didn't just waste money!
 
'Coatl
#12 Posted : 5/28/2009 5:50:39 PM

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O yes, most certainly! Get Trout's Notes and check out my thread (I think the "P.C. pachanoi" thing is covered on the 1st page).

Quote:
Trichocereus all depends on genetics!

This is what's know as "P.C." (Predominant cultivator) pachanoi, it makes a great grafting stock, but isn't anything close to being a decent entheogenic cactus.



You don't want that! Don't buy that! Don't propagate that!

This here is a good "true" peruvianus-







Now there are forms of "peruvianus" which are actually Cuzcoensis, this is the most common type of "peruvianus" on the market... it is horrible entheogenically, perhaps worse than the "P.C." pachanoi!




"Non-P.C." (pachanois which are NOT the P.C. type) are great! They are often VERY potent!

http://flickr.com/photos.../set-72157600838194009/

http://flickr.com/photos.../set-72157600838194009/

http://flickr.com/photos.../set-72157600838194009/


I personally dislike Trichocereus bridgesii, I prefer pachanoi or peruvanius, it's often more potent among the more well know Trichocereus clones, but it's "darker" possibly due to a different mixture of compounds than peruvianus/pachanoi.

Bridgesii

One thing that must be understood is that all Trichocereus vary in their morphology, potency, etc. but with some research it becomes easy to understand which cacti have the traits that make them potenially decent entheogens, once this is confirmed with a bioassy, that clone needs to be propagated.


Trichocereus macrogonus = Trichocereus peruvianus... Macrogonus is just an outdated name! THEY ARE THE SAME CACTUS! MACROGONUS = PERUVANIUS


Many of the above pics come from Mr.Smith, who is awesome! Here's his pics! Check 'em [url=http://flickr.com/photos/msscacti/sets/72157600838194009/]out!

Concerning "P.C." pachanoi- predominant cultivar Trichocereus pachanoi is the most common (the predominant) clone sold in the horticultural market.... a NON-predominant cultivar pachanoi would be a T. pachanoi which is NOT the common clone, but another rarer pachanoi clone (which are often MUCH more potent than the P.C. pachanoi.
WARNING: DO NOT INGEST ANY BOTANICAL WHICH YOU HAVE NOT FULLY RESEARCHED AND CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED!!!

I am Teotzlcoatl, older cousin of Quetzalcoatl. My most famous physical incarnation was Nezahualcoyotl, but I have taken many forms since the dawn of the cosmos. In this realm I manifest as multiple entities at a single time. I am many, I am numbered. I am few, but more than one. I am a multifaceted being, a winged serpent with many heads. We are Teotzlcoatl.

"We Are The One's We've Been Waiting For" - Hopi Proverb
 
mori
#13 Posted : 5/28/2009 7:04:04 PM
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Indeed. I read your thread at your insistance last night with great interest. The most readilly available type in my area is the cactus below (unfortunately).

SWIM has been processing these down to liquid or dry powder with limited effects.
The only one SWIM has success with is something that was marked as bridgesii.. which had active effects, but unfortunately wasn't large enough for SWIM to get beyond his major threshold.

The scorp looked like the other one from your thread, the one with 4 fat lobes and tiny spikes.. SWIM hopes that one is going to pan out. I doubt it from the lack of green flesh on it tho.

'Coatl wrote:



 
'Coatl
#14 Posted : 5/29/2009 1:56:42 AM

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Quote:
Indeed. I read your thread at your insistance last night with great interest. The most readilly available type in my area is the cactus below (unfortunately).


Unless you live somewhere besides Earth I can help you get NON-P.C. T. pachanoi and "TRUE BLUE" T. peruvianus, PM me if interested!

Quote:
scorp


It's Scop. man. It's is Trichocereus scopulicola! Not "scorp".

Quote:
The scorp looked like the other one from your thread, the one with 4 fat lobes and tiny spikes.. SWIM hopes that one is going to pan out. I doubt it from the lack of green flesh on it tho.


It's all about genetics. Get some good clones and you will have a good experience... right now your dealing with "schawg" cacti. Smile
WARNING: DO NOT INGEST ANY BOTANICAL WHICH YOU HAVE NOT FULLY RESEARCHED AND CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED!!!

I am Teotzlcoatl, older cousin of Quetzalcoatl. My most famous physical incarnation was Nezahualcoyotl, but I have taken many forms since the dawn of the cosmos. In this realm I manifest as multiple entities at a single time. I am many, I am numbered. I am few, but more than one. I am a multifaceted being, a winged serpent with many heads. We are Teotzlcoatl.

"We Are The One's We've Been Waiting For" - Hopi Proverb
 
mori
#15 Posted : 6/4/2009 3:34:33 PM
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[quote='Coatl]
Quote:
Unless you live somewhere besides Earth I can help you get NON-P.C. T. pachanoi and "TRUE BLUE" T. peruvianus, PM me if interested!


Well, my country have import restrictions. Frankly SWIM is in this for the long haul so has found a local supplier of seeds to grow from. Germinate 1000 seeds, chuck em onto a country property and come back in 2 years. Smile

Quote:

It's Scop. man. It's is Trichocereus scopulicola! Not "scorp".

Its my kid name for the spirit which is SWIM's cactus. One thing its important to remember is the spirit of the life which gives you the contents.

Well after SWIM performed her first extraction, she has reevaluated her over-eager plans. Without some sort of HPLC or MS, efforts would be in vain, and the process is without being able to determine the outputs of the extractions. Too much bloody work! Took her almost 3 days for one extract (learning more each extract).

I think the biggest problem is the total lack of wet specimens of sufficent potency in our local area.

As her second extract, SWIM will be performing a full exact extract (to the letter) of the most common variety of cactus in the area. if yield is insufficent, he will go out of his local area to boutique nursreys or barring that, he will simply pull away from extraction and concentrate on the growing process.
 
 
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