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Advaita Vedanta - ancient wisdom Options
 
zhoro
#81 Posted : 8/8/2014 12:16:52 AM

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This thread is the culmination of the Nexus. Love it!
Here it is - right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it. ~ Huang-po
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
Rising Spirit
#82 Posted : 8/8/2014 3:07:10 PM

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joedirt wrote:
For awareness to exist there must be an object (object in this sense can be anything. A thought, an emotion, a tree, river, solar system..etc) to be aware of. So eternal awareness would still imply permanent duality.

I love anything Brother joedirt pens! Here we have a provocative notion and it raises much deep pondering. I have given this idea much contemplation and something seems more than a wee bit intriguing, herein this wondrrful discussion. Bravissimo guys! Thumbs up

And I agree wholeheartedly, any awareness of objects and things, times and places, no matter how grandiose, is surely dependent on a dualistic premise. Even so, when the mind stops distinguishing this from that, what is then left? I do not personally fancy a nihilistic view of the hidden reality behind the appearances of life as we know it to be, to be nothing and like a vacuum. The Spirit is ever present everywhere, even as we cognize it's dancing presentation before our finite subjectivity, attempting to figure things out sufficiently to step further beyond the known. I guess I am more inclined to romantically see the Void as a limitless non-thing, itself made manifest by a witness or internally observant Atman.

Who can say what awareness is actually aware of, since we perceive of this material universe and those we cannot yet perceive of, through our own clearly defined limitations. Now what remains of one's mortal subjectivity when all strings, membranes, delineations and the myriad dichotomies of conceptual existence, subside into eternal stillness? Even Sakyamuni utilized duality to discourse upon the nature of this impermanent and ever-changing universal flow, which we know through our human consciousness and it's propensity for defining and knowing, with concrete certainty.

In my own small experiences, when such an eclipsing is happening, the human attuned to the Infinite, thought itself ceases and yet, conscious-awareness blooms resplendently. Self is evaporated and dissolved within the sheer fulcrum of The Oneness... or perhaps "the only" (to quote a wise friend). On my deepest and most self-shattering journeys, there still exists a perception of blinding pulsations of the Inner Light and the roaring AUM vibration. This always precedes ecstatic-bliss or Ananda, is the only perceivable paradigmatic occurrence humming joyfully before the vision of the Omniself (Paramatman). It is intelligence and universal law.

The Indian Hindu yogi mystics call this Omniversal consciousnehss, "Ishvara", amongst many other titles. God with intention and an eternal presence. This Great Spirit is the epicenter of everything else and is wholly Sacred. We are That and naught is existent save That. Brahman is also Ishvara but not compressed into being a "God" to become the object of observation or insight. Brahman casts no shadow, nor leaves any impression. Out of That issues forth, "the ten thousand things" (Tao Te Ching).

That is the very seed which spontaneously blossoms duality, KABOOM, and the universe at play is born. Forever spinning around the vacuum of the Clear Light of the Void, this primordial Over-soul is more real than the ego or the mind can grok or vainly grasp at. Yet, it is not actually an object at all but I have come to believe that it is an Omniscient state of Absolute Being.

Sakyamuni (The Buddha) wrote:
The mind which perceives limitation... IS the limitation.

I also believe, and I may well be most incorrect to think so, that this is what Gautama Buddha implied by his use of the word Nirvana, for even the bliss of the heavenly plane is part of the dualistic causation, as it is said to be freedom from bondage and the imprisoning burden of selfhood. It has a name when named, yet, however it is inferred or implied, enlightenment blooms to be an interphase between mankind and the ineffable. That too... is a division within an indivisible core, however undivided it's truest nature really is. Perhaps this is why words and concepts are so crude and ineffective to express such a non-dual state of seamless unity? Neti, neti... Big grin

joedirt wrote:
BTW nen I didn't respond to the parts of your post about comprehension being the basis of final state. I rather like this notion and want to meditate on it... Buddha obviously understood nirvana.. he comprehended it. Though it wasn't a thing at all and not something he could talk about. Fascinating perspective. I will meditate on this avenue of thinking for sure.

Yes, yes, yes!!! But who comprehends the "basis of final state"? No beginning and no ending. I feel that Buddha's enlightenment was more of an effulgent dawning, than a final achievement or realization. As if there is ever a ceiling. Perhaps spiritual awakening is an experiential, humanoid reflection of Pi? Turning on to the infinity. Or is it the source which casts it's shadow, as a refracted pulsing, as an enigmatic energy burst of sorts? Oblivion surely awaits the body and mind of any sentient entity, in any frequency or dimension. Atman is also a degree of impermanence, as it manifests throughout form and substance. But Anatma is exactly what? The transparency of any fixed self, ergo, the absence of a dominant ego (even the higher frequency of the mortal ego, the immortal soul)? Witness and that which is witnessed fuse as one, thus vanishing into sheer, boundless mystery. IMO, it seems to be along such lines as these.

Paradoxically, an experience still happens... and it is so far beyond human linguistics it cannot be spoken of or encapsulated by any lofty Sutras or Gospels. Just who this happens to is our religious-philosophical, subjective choice, I suppose?

I might say, Brahman, God or The Tao. While another embodiment of awareness might say, La Illaha Illallah Hu and yet another might perceive of Buddha Nature or The Empty Void... but the key is that the sudden awakening is without any corralling, encapsulation nor substantiation as finite form. Mind stops and within the stillness occurs an immersion. The whiteout experience is like an entheogenic triggering of Savikapla Samadhi. In post-eclipsing mode, we can then most dualistically interrelate and deeply discuss these issues, albeit, well after ego re-crystallizes and self is reborn anew... only to ponder the pause in it's cognitive functioning. Blah, blah, blah? Stop

Still trysting not to try? I know, what else is new? But even so, this is one of the coolest of spiritual exercises and I appreciate all of the wonderful comments shared. More are welcomed!



There is no self to which I cling, for I am one with everything.
 
Rising Spirit
#83 Posted : 8/8/2014 3:08:42 PM

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Words... silly words. Pardon my long-winded verbosity, folks. Still, how can "That" be spoken of... and by whom to who? Whose dream is this anyway? And by golly, who then, listens to the music of the Roaring Silence? Cool





There is no self to which I cling, for I am one with everything.
 
joedirt
#84 Posted : 8/10/2014 3:43:23 PM

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zhoro wrote:
This thread is the culmination of the Nexus. Love it!


I have to agree with this!


I love you guy's and these conversations. it's just nice to have talk like this with people that are actually spending time deeply thinking about it.

RisingSpirit I alway's love your posts as well man. As Yogananda would say: There are many paths up the mountain leading to God. I believe this as well. I mean at the end of the day the school one arrives by doesn't matter. Even Buddha referred to his teachings as a raft to cross the river, but once the river was crossed you didn't need to cling to the raft any longer.

Peace
If your religion, faith, devotion, or self proclaimed spirituality is not directly leading to an increase in kindness, empathy, compassion and tolerance for others then you have been misled.
 
#85 Posted : 8/10/2014 5:54:17 PM
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joedirt wrote:
I love you guy's and these conversations. it's just nice to have talk like this with people that are actually spending time deeply thinking about it.


I concur, friend. Smile

Everyday that goes by, I can't help but be immersed in THAT. Everyday that passes, THAT is uncovered a little more, my awareness encompassing wider and wider vistas of the ever-present ineffability of THAT which we are bound.

By becoming intimate with the Self - we become intimate with Brahman, which then in the same turn lends us to identify with the whole of the phenomenal world, because of the fact that the phenomenal world cannot exist without the presence of Brahman. It is just like saying there cannot be a pot without clay and there cannot be a golden ring without the gold. We're steeped/embedded in Brahman.

 
Praxis.
#86 Posted : 8/11/2014 6:30:00 AM

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Wonderful thread, lots of wisdom here! Thumbs up

It's funny, I just recently started down the path of Advaita after years of searching for a practice that I really resonated with. Almost exactly the day after I made the conscious decision, I found this thread.

I just got a copy of the Brahma Sutra and a few other books. Are any of you familiar with Vasistha's Yoga?

I like what people are posting, it's very thought provoking. When I have more time I'll be sure to share some of my thoughts.

Keep it coming!
"Consciousness grows in spirals." --George L. Jackson

If you can just get your mind together, then come across to me. We'll hold hands and then we'll watch the sunrise from the bottom of the sea...
But first, are you experienced?
 
nen888
#87 Posted : 8/11/2014 3:25:23 PM
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..thanks zhoro glad you're enjoying and also Tattvamasi..your last post was a nice summary of learning to 'abide in Brahman'..good to hear, and well put..

VTSeeker48..that's a nice coincidence..yes, enjoy to hear of the path..a good section from the Yoga Vasistha was kindly posted in post#31 by zhoro..are you studying this?

and thanks Rising Spirit..good words, yes..how many can we use to try to get the meaning of experience..we can only ever point indirectly to this thing…in the language i attempt to use myself i am bounded by meanings, concepts and apparent contradictions or paradoxes..in this subject we come to the limits of language, or analogy..
joedirt. thank you for your posts, i enjoy the conversation too..
Smile



we are definitely in areas of thought that can be meditated on for some time to 'break through'..for now i will ponder some your previous conjecture, and Buddhist 'nirvana'..
joedirt wrote:
Quote:
What happens when even the awareness is dissolved? Science has shown that subatomic particles effectively dance in and out of existence. What exactly is non existence? I think I made a compelling argument that existence is essentially awareness right down to the most fundamental level. What is the other side of the coin? Where do these particles 'jump' to.. Personally I don't think it's a place. To use Buddhist words ( sorry they are the ones I know best at the point) it is the unbecome. Nirvana being the end of becoming... If becoming is rooted in awareness then perhaps unbecoming is simply the absence of this awareness as well?


..from an Advaita Vedanta perspective, as i understand it, the particles 'jump' to the unmanifest aspect of the same thing which is perceiving them (or causing their objectification) ..non-manifest is unbecome..'potential'..not in time or space, which also arise from the unmanifest potential..
while most, if not all things, could be 'non-existing' from a particular point of view, i think one thing must exist…existence itself..which is phenomenal and non-phenomenal, and ultimately neither..it is the unification..wholly unbroken universally..

if we make the statement 'there is nothing', or there is absolutely no thing being experienced, there is still a comprehension that there was nothing..

using the word 'comprehension', rather than 'awareness',
the most basic of comprehensions simply is that 'there is'..not of anything..just there 'is'..
can one comprehend comprehension? it would be to comprehend that there is the means of comprehension..but what comprehends that? it can only be pure comprehension, which cannot be be comprehended outside of it self..it is 'experienceable' in it's existence unto itself...but by any ordinary sensory means, comprehension itself is incomprehensible..

if think could we take that comprehension away, in the absolute sense of (doing) nothing, then we can only be left which it's potential..or source..neither real nor not-real, it still exists.. this same 'potential' is the potential for anything which is comprehended..being 'incomprehensible', yet which results in every 'thing'..the means of comprehending anything..the potential (and actual) comprehension itself..we are left with what in Upanishadic texts is Brahman..the basis (in Shaktism, Adi Shakti is the basis of this) of comprehension..

it is the means of the verification of existence (or non-existence)..'It'..transcendent from any object, action or attachment..'Brahman'
which i think is surely 'Nirvana'..there is no beyond this..without comprehension nothing can be known to exist, except existence itself..unbroken whole..the 'pure' comprehension..everpresent
the 'clear' light..

but all such language tries to point to at something which..well..is outside its bounds..

Quote:
Buddhists seem adamant that there is a difference.

i like this conjecture..i think the difference is in the language being used to try to reach this..for by neither intellect or experience can i see a difference in the end between these 'non-dualisms'..except in conceptualisations which derive from mind and language..i mean, 'non dual' is non dual, isn't it?

i agree also the Experience is the core understanding of the transcendent, beyond intellect..
..advaita vedanta is largely about the careful observation of mind, and what underlies this phenomena..so, using intellect (buddhi) and reading texts is not the realisation itself..various practices, techniques (mantras, yogas) aid in experiential focus..
.

thanks everyone..
 
nen888
#88 Posted : 8/12/2014 10:09:00 AM
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..'Bliss' is the word i left out in the above post..Smile

Tattvamasi wrote:
Quote:
By becoming intimate with the Self - we become intimate with Brahman, which then in the same turn lends us to identify with the whole of the phenomenal world, because of the fact that the phenomenal world cannot exist without the presence of Brahman. It is just like saying there cannot be a pot without clay and there cannot be a golden ring without the gold. We're steeped/embedded in Brahman.
..this in turn leads to less suffering, by identifying with the source, not our thoughts, desires, emotions..yes these will all still arise, but the nature of underlying peace (bliss) becomes more apparent with focus..each day, to increasingly 'abide in the Self', with practice..It is always 'there'..whatever state of perception..

experientially..i have a couple of times been suddenly awoken from deep sleep (the nothing going on, no dreams level) by a sudden sound (branch on the roof) ..in the split second transition back to the 'awake' state, and identification with body/mind, i have realised what i was just experiencing in that deep sleep state (where there was no 'me', no dreams etc) ..'everything' was there..seamless, unending 'everything'..no wonder to the limited perception it seems like 'nothing'..it can't be contained in ordinary mind or vision..but it was more fully 'aware' than 'awake'..and it was like 'bliss'..

joedirt wrote:
Quote:
As Yogananda would say: There are many paths up the mountain leading to God. I believe this as well. I mean at the end of the day the school one arrives by doesn't matter. Even Buddha referred to his teachings as a raft to cross the river, but once the river was crossed you didn't need to cling to the raft any longer.
..absolutely! we need more than one raft..i really appreciate what you said about the benefits of mindfullness meditation on p.1..hope your meditations are going well..and peace

Rising Spirit wrote:
Quote:
Brahman is also Ishvara but not compressed into being a "God" to become the object of observation or insight. Brahman casts no shadow, nor leaves any impression. Out of That issues forth, "the ten thousand things" (Tao Te Ching).
..wise words Rising Spirit..yes, 'clear'..
Quote:
But who comprehends the "basis of final state"? No beginning and no ending. I feel that Buddha's enlightenment was more of a dawning, than a final achievement or realization. An experiential, humanoid Pi of sorts? Oblivion awaits the mind of any sentient entity, in any dimension. But Anatma is exactly what? The transparency of any self, ergo, the absence of a dominant ego (even the higher frequency of the ego, Atman or soul)? Witness and that which is witnessed, vanishing into sheer mystery. IMO, it seems to be along such lines as these.

..yes, and fine words, in attempting to sum up the unfathomable..Adi Shankaracharya said: "Who can describe That (i.e., Brahman) whence words turn away ? (So silence is inevitable while describing Brahman). Or if the phenomenal world were to be described, even that is beyond words. This, to give an alternate definition, may also be termed silence known among the sages as congenital. The observance of silence by restraining speech, on the other hand, is ordained by the teachers of Brahman for the ignorant." .

.. in terms of language and metaphor for the non-dual, i quite like Shakta Advaita...but this is just personal taste..i see the same final understanding in 'Mayavadin' Vedanta and Buddhism..
.




for Advaita Vedanta, i thought it would be good to look at some of Adi Shankaracharya's 'descriptions' of Brahman..
[from Atma Bodha]
Quote:
41. There are no distinctions such as “Knower”, the “Knowledge” and the “Object of Knowledge” in the Supreme Self. On account of Its being of the nature of endless Bliss, It does not admit of such distinctions within Itself. It alone shines by Itself.

[from Vivekachudamani]
Quote:
225. Brahman is Existence, Knowledge, Infinity, pure, supreme, self-existent, eternal and indivisible Bliss, not different (in reality) from the individual soul, and devoid of interior or exterior. It is (ever) triumphant.

237-238. ...whatever is manifested, viz. this universe, is the Supreme Brahman Itself, the Real, the One without a second, pure, the Essence of Knowledge, taintless, serene, devoid of beginning and end, beyond activity, the Essence of Bliss Absolute – transcending all the diversities created by Maya or Nescience, eternal, ever beyond the reach of pain, indivisible, immeasurable, formless, undifferentiated, nameless, immutable, self-luminous.

255. That Supreme Brahman which is beyond the range of all speech, but accessible to the eye of pure illumination; which is pure, the Embodiment of Knowledge, the beginningless entity – that Brahman art thou, meditate on this in thy mind.

263. That beyond which there is nothing; which shines even above Maya, which again is superior to its effect, the universe; the inmost Self of all, free from differentiation; the Real Self, the Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute; infinite and immutable – that Brahman art thou, meditate on this in thy mind.


513. I am verily that Brahman, the One without a second, which transcends the endless differentiations of Maya, which is the inmost essence of all, is beyond the range of consciousness, and which is Truth, Knowledge, Infinity and Bliss Absolute.


as for the apparent world, Shankaracharya says of Maya: (the 'mayavadin' perspective)[from Vivekachudamani]
Quote:
108. Avidya (Nescience) or Maya, called also the Undifferentiated, is the power of the Lord. She is without beginning, is made up of the three Gunas and is superior to the effects (as their cause). She is to be inferred by one of clear intellect only from the effects She produces. It is She who brings forth this whole universe.
109. She is neither existent nor non-existent nor partaking of both characters; neither same nor different nor both; neither composed of parts nor an indivisible whole nor both. She is most wonderful and cannot be described in words.

..Shankaracharya says Maya is dissolved by the full realisation of Brahman..
(the subtly different Shakta Advaita language position i mentioned earlier)

.. also,
peace..
.




 
Rising Spirit
#89 Posted : 8/13/2014 8:30:06 PM

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I was reading some of Swami Vivekananda's thoughts on Advaita Vedanta, just last night and thought them as relevant to this present thread topic in 2014, as it was when he wrote it, more than a hundred twenty years ago. His wisdom was culled from the fusion of the ecstatic revere and esoteric mysticism of his Guru, Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa, conjoined with the penetrating insight and sound reasoning of a true philosopher. His was a precise science of deep spirituality. So eloquent and dignified a soul was he, that even today his intelligent discourses ring true. Cool

Sri Swami Vivekananda wrote:
According to the Advaita Vedantist, the soul is struggling to reveal itself. After long struggle, it finds that the subject must always remain the subject; and then begins non-attachment, and it becomes free.

According to the Advaita philosophy, there is only one thing real in the universe, which it calls Brahman; everything else is unreal, manifested and manufactured out of Brahman by the power of Maya. To reach back to that Brahman is our goal. We are, each one of us, that Brahman, that Reality, plus this Maya. If we can get rid of this Maya or ignorance, then we become what we really are.

According to this philosophy, each man consists of three parts — the body, the internal organ or the mind, and behind that, what is called the Atman, the Self. The body is the external coating and the mind is the internal coating of the Atman who is the real perceiver, the real enjoyer, the being in the body who is working the body by means of the internal organ or the mind.

Therefore in the Advaita philosophy, the whole universe is all one in the Self which is called Brahman. That Self when it appears behind the universe is called God. The same Self when it appears behind this little universe, the body, is the soul. This very soul, therefore, is the Self in man. There is only one Purusha, the Brahman of the Vedanta; God and man, analyzed, are one in It. The universe is you yourself, the unbroken you; you are throughout the universe. "In all hands you work, through all mouths you eat, through all nostrils you breathe through all minds you think." The whole universe is you; the universe is your body; you are the universe both formed and unformed. You are the soul of the universe and its body also.

You are God, you are the angels, you are man, you are animals, you are the plants, you are the minerals, you are everything; the manifestation of everything is you. Whatever exists is you. You are the Infinite. The Infinite cannot be divided. It can have no parts, for each part would be infinite, and then the part would be identical with the whole, which is absurd. Therefore the idea that you are Mr. So-and-so can never be true; it is a day-dream. Know this and be free. This is the Advaita conclusion. "I am neither the body, nor the organs, nor am I the mind; I am Existence, Knowledge, and Bliss absolute; I am He."

Advaita. . . affirms that Purushas can be only One, that Purusha cannot be conscious, unconscious, or have any qualification, for either these qualities would bind, or they would eventually cease; so the One must be without any qualities, even knowledge, and It cannot be the cause of the universe or of anything, itself without any differentiation.
"In the beginning, existence only, One without a second", says the Vedas.

This is true knowledge; all reason and intellect, and everything else is ignorance... The first is called dualism. The second holds that there are God, soul, and nature. Soul and nature form the body of God, and, therefore, these three form one unit. It represents a higher stage of religious development and goes by the name of qualified monism. In dualism, the universe is conceived as a large machine set going by God while in qualified monism, it is conceived as an organism, inter penetrated by the Divine Self.

The dry, abstract Advaita must become living, poetic, in everyday life; out of hopelessly intricate mythology must come concrete moral forms and out of bewildering Yogi-ism must come the most scientific and practical of psychologies. And all this must be put into a clear and concise format, so that even a small child may grasp it. That is my life's work.


Wise words from a very cool guy! Like Sri Adi Shankaracharya, his life was fleeting but brilliant! Thumbs up
There is no self to which I cling, for I am one with everything.
 
#90 Posted : 8/13/2014 9:58:25 PM
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Sri Swami Vivekananda wrote:

You are God, you are the angels, you are man, you are animals, you are the plants, you are the minerals, you are everything; the manifestation of everything is you. Whatever exists is you. You are the Infinite. The Infinite cannot be divided. It can have no parts, for each part would be infinite, and then the part would be identical with the whole, which is absurd. Therefore the idea that you are Mr. So-and-so can never be true; it is a day-dream. Know this and be free. This is the Advaita conclusion. "I am neither the body, nor the organs, nor am I the mind; I am Existence, Knowledge, and Bliss absolute; I am He."


Great words indeed.

<3


 
Rising Spirit
#91 Posted : 8/14/2014 12:38:02 AM

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An intriguing question & answer interview on Sri Aurobindo's ideas, held with the Jnani mystic, Sri Ramana Maharshi: Cool

Sri Ramana Maharshi wrote:

Q: In the Vedanta of Sri Sankaracharya, the principle of the creation of the world has been accepted for the sake of beginners, but for the advanced, the principle of non-creation is put forward. What is your view in this matter?

M: Na nirodha na chotpattirNabaddho na cha sadhakaha Na mumukshur na vai mukta Ityesha paramarthata This sloka appears in the second chapter [v. 32, vaithathya prakarana] of Gaudapada's Karika [a commentary on the Mandukyopanishad].

It means really that there is no creation and no dissolution. There is no bondage, no one doing spiritual practices, no one seeking spiritual liberation, and no one who is liberated. One who is established in the Self sees this by his knowledge of reality.

Q: Sri Aurobindo believes that the human body is not the last on this earth. Establishment in the Self, according to him, is not perfectly attained in a human body, for Self-knowledge does not operate there in its natural way. Therefore the vijnanamaya sarira [the body made of pure knowledge]1 in which Self-knowledge can work naturally must be brought down on this earth.

M: Self-knowledge can shine very well in the human body, so there is no need of any other body.

Q: Sri Aurobindo believes that the vijnanamaya sarira will not be attacked by disease, will not grow old, and will not die without one's desire.

M: The body itself is like a disease. To wish for a longer stay within that diseased state, is not the aim of the jnani. Anyhow, one has to give up identification with the body. Just as the I-am-the-body consciousness prevents one from attaining Self-knowledge, in the same way, one who has got the conviction that he is not the body will become liberated even if he doesn't desire it.

Q: Sri Aurobindo wants to bring the power of God into the human body.

M: If, after surrendering, one still has this desire, then surrender has not been successful. If one has the attitude, 'If the higher power is to come down, it must come into my body', this will only increase identification with the body. Truly speaking, there is no need of any such descent. After the destruction of the I-am-the-body idea, the individual becomes the form of the absolute. In that state, there is no above or below, front or back.

Q: If the individual becomes the form of the absolute, then who will enjoy the bliss of the absolute? To enjoy the bliss of the absolute, we must be slightly separate from it, like the fly that tastes sugar from a little distance.

M: The bliss of the absolute is the bliss of one's own nature. It is not born, nor has it been created. Pleasure that is created is sure to be destroyed. Sugar, being insentient, cannot give its own taste. The fly has to keep a little distance to taste it. But the absolute is awareness and consciousness. It can give its own bliss, but its nature cannot be understood without attaining that state.

Q: Sri Aurobindo wants to bring down on the earth a new divine race.

M: Whatever is to be attained in the future is to be understood as impermanent. Learn to understand properly what you have now so that there will be no need of thinking about the future.

Q: Sri Aurobindo says that God has created various kinds of worlds and is still going to create a new world.

M: Our present world itself is not real. Each one sees a different imaginary world according to his imagination, so where is the guarantee that the new world will be real? The jiva [the individual person], the world and God, all of these are relative ideas. So long as there is the individual sense of 'I', these three are also there.

From this individual sense of 'I', from the mind, these three have arisen. If you stop the mind, the three will not remain, but Brahman alone will remain, as it remains and abides even now. We see things because of an error. This misperception will be rectified by enquiring into the real nature of this jiva.

Even if the jiva enters Supermind, it will remain in mind, but after surrendering the mind, there will be nothing left but Brahman. Whether this world is real or unreal, consciousness or inert, a place of happiness or a place of misery, all these states arise in the state of ignorance. They are not useful after realisation.

The state of Atmanishta [being fixed in the Self], devoid of the individual feeling of 'I', is the supreme state. In this state there is no room for thinking of objects, nor for this feeling of individual being. There is no doubt of any kind in this natural state of being-consciousness-bliss.

So long as there is the perception of name and form in oneself, God will appear with form, but when the vision of the formless reality is achieved there will be no modifications of seer, seeing and seen. That vision is the nature of consciousness itself, non-dual and undivided. It is limitless, infinite and perfect. When the individual sense of 'I' arises in the body, the world is seen. If this sense is absent, who then will see the world?

Profound insights by one who stepped beyond himself and inter-phased directly into Brahman. Therein, finding the original nature and the eternal effulgence of the ineffable Self. Big grin

There is no self to which I cling, for I am one with everything.
 
zhoro
#92 Posted : 8/14/2014 1:20:46 AM

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Rising Spirit wrote:
An intriguing question & answer interview on Sri Aurobindo's ideas, held with the Jnani mystic, Sri Ramana Maharshi: Cool


My dear Bhagavan - always straight to the point, ever shepherding the wayward mind and its countless fancies - visions, gods, entities, spaces, grand dreams of improving the world - back to its source, the only solution. Love him.
Here it is - right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it. ~ Huang-po
 
zhoro
#93 Posted : 8/14/2014 1:56:05 AM

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It might be useful to some to have the below pointers to gateways included in this thread.

Centering Practices:
112 ways to open the invisible door of consciousness.
Transcribed by Paul Reps.
From Zen Flesh, Zen Bones*
________________________________________
Zen is nothing new, neither is it anything old. Long before Buddha was born the search was on in India, as the present work shows.

Long after man has forgotten such words as Zen and Buddha, satori and koan, China and Japan and America - still the search will go on, still Zen will be seen even in flower, and grass-blade, before the sun.

The following is adapted from the preface to the first version in English of this ancient work.

Wandering in the ineffable beauty of Kashmir, above Srinagar I come upon the hermitage of Lakshmanjoo.

It overlooks green rice fields, the garden, of Shalimar and Nishat Bagh, lakes fringed with lotus. Water streams down from a mountaintop.

Here Lakshmanjoo - tall, full bodied, shining - welcomes me. He shares with me this ancient teaching from the Vigyan Bhairava and Sochanda Tantra, both written about four thousand years ago, and from Malini Vijaya Tantra, probably another thousand years older yet. It is an ancient teaching, copied and recopied countless times, and from it Lakshmanjoo has made the beginning of an English version. I transcribe it eleven more times to get it into the form given here.

Shiva first chanted it to his consort Devi in a language of love we have yet to learn. It is about the Immanent experience. It presents 112 ways to open the invisible door of consciousness. I see Lakshmanjoo gives his life to its practicing.

Some of the ways may appear redundant, yet each differs from any other. Some may seem simple, yet any one requires constant dedication even to test it.

Machines, ledgers, dancers, athletes balance. Just as centering or balance augments various skills, so it may awareness. As an experiment, try standing equally on both feet; then imagine you are shifting your balance slightly from foot to foot: just as balance centers, do you.

If we are conscious in part, this implies more inclusive consciousness. Have you a hand? Yes. That you know without doubt. But until asked the question were you cognizant of the hand apart?

Surely men as inspiritors, known and unknown to the world, have shared a common uncommon discovery. The Tao of Lao-tse, Nirvana of Buddha, Jehovah of Moses, the Father of Jesus, the Allah of Mohammed — all point to the experience.

No-thing-ness, spirit - once touched, the whole life clears.
________________________________________
DEVI SAYS:
O Shiva, what is your reality?
What is this wonder-filled universe?
What constitutes seed?
Who centers the universal wheel?
What is this life beyond form pervading forms?
How may we enter it fully, above space and
time, names and descriptions?
Let my doubts be cleared!
SHIVA REPLIES
[Devi, though already enlightened, has asked the foregoing questions so others through the universe might receive Shiva’s instructions. Now follow Shiva’s reply, giving the 112 ways.]
1. Radiant one, this experience may dawn between two breaths. After breath comes in (down) and just before turning up (out) — the beneficence.
2. As breath turns from down to up, and again as breath curves from up to down—through both these turns, realize.
3. Or, whenever inbreath and outbreath fuse, at this instant touch the energyless energy-filled center.
4. Or, when breath is all out (up) and stopped of itself, or all in (down) and stopped—in such universal pause, one's small self vanishes. This is difficult only for the impure.
5. Consider your essence as light rays rising from center to center up the vertebrae, and so rises livingness in you.
6. Or in the spaces between, feel this as lightning.
7. Devi, imagine the Sanskrit letters in these honey-filled foci of awareness, first as letters, then more subtly as sounds, then as most subtle feeling. Then, leaving them aside, be free.
8. Attention between eyebrows, let mind be before thought. Let form fill with breath-essence to the top of the head, and there shower as light.
9. Or, imagine the five-colored circles of the peacock tail to be your five senses in illimitable space. Now let their beauty melt within. Similarly, at any point in space or on a wall — until the point dissolves. Then your wish for another comes true.
10. Eyes closed, see your inner being in detail. Thus see your true nature.
11. Place your whole attention in the nerve, delicate as the lotus thread, in the center of your spinal column. In such be transformed.
12. Closing the seven openings of the head with your hands, a space between your eyes becomes all-inclusive.
13. Touching eyeballs as a feather, lightness between them opens into heart and there permeates the cosmos.
14. Bathe in the center of sound, as in the continuous sound of a waterfall. Or, by putting fingers in ears, hear the sound of sounds.
15. Intone a sound, as a-u-m, slowly. As sound enters soundfulness, so do you.
16. In the beginning and gradual refinement of the sound of any letter, awake.
17. While listening to stringed instruments, hear their composite central sound; thus omnipresence.
18. Intone a sound audibly, then less and less audibly as feeling deepens into this silent harmony.
19. Imagine spirit simultaneously within and around you until the entire universe spiritualizes.
20. Kind Devi, enter etheric presence pervading far above and below your form.
21. Put mindstuff in such inexpressible fineness above, below, and in your heart.
22. Consider any area of your present form as limitlessly spacious.
23. Feel your substance, bones, flesh, blood, saturated with cosmic essence.
24. Suppose your passive form to be an empty room with walls of skin - empty.
25. Blessed one, as senses are absorbed in heart, reach the center of the lotus.
26. Unminding mind, keep in the middle - until.
27. When in worldly activity, keep attentive between the two breaths, and so practicing, in a few days be born anew. [Lakshmanjoo says this is his favorite.]
28. Focus on fire rising through your form from the toes up until the body burns to ashes but not you.
29. Meditate on the make-believe world as burning to ashes, and become being above human.
30. Feel the fine qualities of creativity permeating your breasts and assuming delicate configurations.
31. With intangible breath in center of forehead, as this reaches heart at the moment of sleep, have direction over dreams and over death itself.
32. As, subjectively, letters flow into words and words into sentences, and as, objectively, circles flow into worlds and worlds into principles, find at last these converging in our being.
33. Gracious one, play the universe is an empty shell wherein your mind frolics infinitely.
34. Look upon a bowl without seeing the sides or the material. In a few moments become aware.
35. Abide in some place endlessly spacious, clear of trees, hills, habitations. Thence comes the end of mind pressures.
36. Sweet-hearted one, meditate on knowing and not knowing, existing and not existing. Then leave both aside that you may be.
37. Look lovingly on some object Do not go on to another object. Here, in the middle of this object — the blessing.
38. Feel cosmos as translucent ever-living presence.
39. With utmost devotion, center on the two junctions of breath and know the knower.
40. Consider the plenum to be your own body of bliss.
41. While being caressed, sweet princess, enter the caressing as everlasting life.
42. Stop the doors of senses when feeling the creeping of an ant. Then.
43. At the start of sexual union, keep attention on the fire in the beginning, and, so continuing, avoid the embers in the end.
44. When in such embrace your senses are shaken as leaves, enter this shaking.
45. Even remembering union, without the embrace, the transformation.
46. On joyously seeing a long-absent friend, permeate this joy.
47. When eating or drinking, become the taste of the food or drink, and be filled.
48. 0 lotus-eyed one, sweet of touch, when singing, seeing, tasting, be aware you are and discover the ever-living.
49. Wherever satisfaction is found, in whatever act, actualize this.
50. At the point of sleep when sleep has not yet come and external wakefulness vanishes, at this point being is revealed. [Lakshmanjoo says this is another of his favorites.]
51. In summer when you see the entire sky endlessly clear, enter such clarity.
52. Lie down as dead. Enraged in wrath, stay so. Or stare without moving an eyelash. Or suck something and become the sucking.
53. Without support for feet or hands, sit only on buttocks. Suddenly, the centering.
54. In an easy position, gradually pervade an area between the armpits into great peace.
55. See as if for the first time a beauteous person or an ordinary object.
56. With mouth slightly open, keep mind in the middle of tongue. Or, as breath comes silently in, feel the sound HH.
57. When on a bed or a seat, let yorself become weightless, beyond mind.
58. In a moving vehicle, by rhythmically swaying, experience. Or in a still vehicle, by letting yourself swing in slowing invisible circles.
59. Simply by looking into the blue sky beyond clouds, the serenity.
60. Shakti, see all space as if already absorbed in your own head in the brilliance.
61. Waking, sleeping, dreaming, know you as light.
62. In rain during a black night, enter that blackness as the form of forms.
63. When a moonless raining night is not present, close eyes and find blackness before you. Opening eyes, see blackness. So faults disappear forever.
64. Just as you have the impulse to do something, stop.
65. Center on the sound a-u-m without any a or m
66. Silently intone a word ending in AH. Then in the HH effortlessly, the spontaneity.
67. Feel yourself as pervading all directions, far, near.
68. Pierce some part of your nectar-filled form with a pin, and gently enter the piercing.
69. Feel: My thought, I-ness, internal organs—me.
70. Illusions deceive. Colors circumscribe. Even divisibles are indivisible.
71. When some desire comes, consider it. Then, suddenly, quit it.
72. Before desire and before knowing, how can I say I am? Consider. Dissolve in the beauty.
73. With your entire consciousness in the very start of desire, of knowing, know.
74. 0 Shakti, each particular perception is limited, disappearing in omnipotence.
75. In truth forms are inseparate. Inseparate are omnipresent being and your own form. Realize each as made of this consciousness.
76. In moods of extreme desire, be undisturbed.
77. This so-called universe appears as a juggling, a picture show. To be happy look upon it so.
78. 0 Beloved, put attention neither on pleasure or pain but between these.
79. Toss attachment for body aside, realizing I am everywhere. One who is everywhere is joyous.
80. Objects and desires exist in me as in others. So accepting, let them be translated.
81. The appreciation of objects and subjects is the same for an enlightened as for an unenlightened person. The former has one greatness: he remains in the subjective mood, not lost in things.
82. Feel the consciousness of each person as your own consciousness. So, leaving aside concern for self, become each being.
83. Thinking no thing, will limited-self unlimit.
84. Believe omniscient, omnipotent, pervading.
85. As waves come with water and flames with fire, so the universal waves with us.
86. Roam about until exhausted and then, dropping to the ground, in this dropping be whole.
87. Suppose you are gradually being deprived of strength or of knowledge. At the instant of deprivation, transcend.
88. Listen while the ultimate mystical teaching is imparted: Eyes still, without winking, at once become absolutely free.
89. Stopping ears by pressing and rectum by contracting, enter the sound of sound.
90. At the edge of a deep well look steadily into its depths until — the wondrousness.
91. Wherever your mind is wandering, internally or externally at this very place, this.
92. When vividly aware through some particular sense, keep in the awareness.
93. At the start of sneezing, during fright, in anxiety, above a chasm, flying in battle, in extreme curiosity, at the beginning of hunger, at the end of hunger, be uninterruptedly aware.
94. Let attention be at a place where you are seeing some past happening, and even your form, having lost its present characteristics, is transformed.
95. Look upon some object, then slowly withdraw your sight from it, then slowly withdraw your thought from it. Then.
96. Devotion frees.
97. Feel an object before you. Feel the absence of all other objects but this one. Then, leaving aside the object-feeling and the absence-feeling, realize.
98. The purity of other teachings is as impurity to us. In reality know nothing as pure or impure.
99. This consciousness exists as each being, and nothing else exists.
100. Be the unsame same to friend as to stranger, in honor and dishonor.
101. When a mood against someone or for someone arises, do not place it on the person in question, but remain centered.
102. Suppose you contemplate something beyond perception, beyond grasping, beyond not being, you.
103. Enter space, supportless, eternal, still.
104. Wherever your attention alights, at this very point, experience.
105. Enter the sound of your name and, through this sound, all sounds.
106. I am existing. This is mine. This is this. 0 Beloved, even in such know illimitably.
107. This consciousness is the spirit of guidance of each one. Be this one.
108. Here is a sphere of change, change, change. Through change consume change.
109. As a hen mothers her chicks, mother particular knowings, particular doings, in reality.
110. Since, in truth, bondage and freedom are relative, these words are only for those terrified with the universe. This universe is a reflection of minds. As you see many suns in water from one sun, so see bondage and liberation.
111. Each thing is perceived through knowing. The self shines in space through knowing. Perceive one being as knower and known.
112. Beloved, at this moment let mind, knowing, breath, form, be included.
Here it is - right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it. ~ Huang-po
 
nen888
#94 Posted : 8/15/2014 1:56:57 PM
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..nice to get some Vivekananda in there thanks Rising Spirit..the remarkable Ramakrishna was, interestingly, really i think a Shakta, through his ritual devotion to 'Ma' as Kali, the supreme as form, however he also recognised the changeless formless Brahman, saying Shakti and Brahman are one, as i mentioned earlier..



and thanks zhoro..yet more good reading there..and technique..
and i've really been appreciating Ramana since you mentioned him in the thread, thanks..!




..speaking of Ramana, and Shaktas, and Advaita..i found a vedic version of what i was trying to convey in my previous post about comprehension and the nature of existence..

it is from the ancient sanskrit work, the Tripura Rahasya which is considered a Shakta work, but also "Tripura Rahasya was considered by Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi as one of the greatest works that expounded Advaita philosophy. He often quoted from it and regretted that it was not available in English." [foreword to the first English translation in 1938] ..an advaitan friend kindly sent it to me..

a long work, in it's final appendix it is a core old Advaita position with regards to interpretations of Buddhism..
(or, some ideas of 'neo-advaita' ('nobody's here' etc) misunderstood)

the opening of it:

(note: 'jagat' means 'the whole world' )

Quote:
Refutation of the Doctrine of Void

"The followers of this school of thought declare that illusion can and does arise even in the absence of any background (niradhishtana). In the case of a piece of shell appearing as silver, they say that the knowledge of silver is groundless (i.e., void); similarly with the knowledge of the Self. Their position is briefly put as follows: On the firm conviction that the jagat is nonexistent, by a prolonged contemplation on the void, the thought of jagat completely vanishing, void prevails and this is liberation.

Now to refute it — denial of the jagat is imperfect knowledge. Just as a pot is not altogether false, but real as clay, so also is jagat not altogether false but is real as intelligence. Therefore to deny the jagat as being nonexistent is only illusory knowledge. Its nonexistence cannot be established by any proofs. Because the jagat shines as knowledge from which the individual who proves the jagat to be real or unreal, is not distinct; also the jagat though denied yet persists. Though a pot may be denied, its material clay cannot be so denied. Similarly though the jagat may be denied, its existence as knowledge cannot be denied. The same relationship holds between the jagat and consciousness as between a pot and clay. However the adherents of the school of void stick to void and deny all that is perceptible as void. But he is also contained in the jagat which is denied by him. What is left of him beyond denial is knowledge; this cannot be denied.

They mean to say that the moded consciousness constitutes samsara, whereas unmoded consciousness void of all else including the pramanas (means of valid knowledge) to prove it, constitutes liberation. But our objection is that the one who denies the jagat cannot deny himself and the jagat does not cease to exist simply because one curses it. Our objection is valid because consciousness subsists unimpaired in the unmoded state after denying all else to exist."


advaitan but shakta, Tripura Rahasya means "The Mystery Beyond the Trinity"..
it says:

Quote:
"The one undifferentiated Brahman signified by Aum polarises as Sat-chit-ananda, taking shape as Parameswari who, in Her crystal purity displays the variegated phenomena, which gyrate in equipoise within Her. Neutral Brahman and the polarised Brahman are thus interchangeable. The idea of the mirror implies the non-separateness of the object from the subject (conscious being)."











 
nen888
#95 Posted : 8/15/2014 3:13:47 PM
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..here's a short Indian documentary about Ramana i watched the other week..



 
zhoro
#96 Posted : 8/16/2014 1:44:38 AM

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nen888 wrote:
..here's a short Indian documentary about Ramana i watched the other week..

Always lovely to hear the story, presented here with the characteristic pathos of the culture Smile

Your post reminded me of the Adi Shankaracharya film from 1983, which is entirely in Sanskrit. This version has English subtitles.

Here it is - right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it. ~ Huang-po
 
nen888
#97 Posted : 8/16/2014 1:46:54 PM
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^..yeah that's a great movie! Wink


 
nen888
#98 Posted : 8/18/2014 2:10:39 PM
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ps..
on 'Vedanta vs Buddhism', i was careful to say 'interpretations of buddhism' before, of which there are obviously a few..
Buddha himself i see as coming from a vedic tradition, which he has branched from..
the ending of suffering, and non-attachment to desire, anger etc, are core principles of advaita vedanta as well..
i think his use of language suits a different subset of people in attempting to realise the same 'thing' (which is not a thing)

however people have chosen to philosophically interpret things after his death, i firmly believe that 'Nirvana' is simply a different description of the non-duality which Advaita Vedanta also points to..
the 'Source' in ancient Gnosticism..and of course the Tao..

in the earliest Pali recordings of what Buddha is meant to have said
regarding liberation and Nirvana, we find:
Quote:
"This is the practice leading to the cessation of suffering, to me, monks, regarding these previously unheard-of things reflecting wisely and practising continuously, knowledge arose, vision arose, understanding arose, comprehension arose, intelligence arose, wisdom arose and light became manifest."
[Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta]

Quote:
"Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around."
[Kevatta Sutta]

..in advaita we have 'pure' consciousness (without attribute) ..beyond this no one (of any school) has any descriptions..Brahman is a word for 'absolute'..for which there is no beyond..
as Shankaracharya said: "..beyond the range of consciousness, and which is Truth, Knowledge, Infinity and Bliss Absolute."

one school says 'happiness', another says 'bliss'..these are mere words..
whichever path we contemplate such things we arrive at the wordless basis of knowing..


.




 
Rising Spirit
#99 Posted : 8/20/2014 9:15:43 PM

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Received a PM today and wanted to share the exchange, since it is so relevant (at least, within my tiny mind it certainly is) to this wonderful discussion taking place here. Very happy

Quote:
Hello friend,

maybe you can help me; the god experience from DMT or the experience of complete ego death and becoming that which is THAT:


Becoming Brahaman from brahamans perspective;

IS that Nirvakalpa Samadahi?

Namaste my friend,

The paradoxical thing with human words is that they are a relative phenomenon, limited by anthropomorphic definitions. One cannot encapsulate the experience of becoming aware of being Brahman awakening to it's own limitless reality. Still, we do ascribe names and meanings, as an ego-self (Jivatman) going through direct immersions within the Godself or Omniself (Paramatman).

Thus, if all is truly Void... even the concept of Sakyamuni's idea of Anatma, no-self or zero-self, is another illusion. For who is dreaming up this dream? Must there be an original cause to perceive of a reality of one? More so, how does one describe the indescribable?

Within the cosmology of Indian mysticism, there are three levels of Samadhi: Savikapla, Nirvikalpa and Sahaja. While the union is identical, the duration/saturation/immersion of the "eclipsing" is conceptually differentiated from one degree to the next. The psychedelic experience can and in many peoples, facilitates Savikapla Samadhi. Cool

In other words, we all come down, separate from the Oneness and recrystallize as ego-selves, existing in a multiverse of thriving duality. As long as we understand that these semantics are within the realm of mortal illusion, we do not get too, too fixated on definitions and delineations between this and that. Neti, neti...

In some systems of yoga, Nirvikapla Samadhi is considered the ultimate state, one revealing complete union with the Divine nature. In others, Sahaja is considered beyond Nirvikapla, as the union is never broken, the transcendental shift in attention is never undone. The self is 100% dissolved, forevermore, in the Absolute and therefore, cannot return to delusion. One's ego is wholly deadened and no one is left as witness, separated enough, to have a finite/relative self. Whereas, in Nirvikapla, enough humanity remains intact, despite the "enlightenment", to become a Master Soul/Sat Guru/Enlightened One... fused within the Unified Field of the Paramatman.

So, can a humanoid experience Sahaja and still communicate, teach or even exist in a mortal guise? A good question, perhaps the only valuable one to consider, standing before the looking glass? Now... as far as Sahaja samadhi is concerned, I am prone to believe that were this totally the case, even enlightened beings like: Krishna, Zarathustra, Mahavira, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Socrates, Patanjali, Christ, Muhammad, Shankara and Sri Ramana Maharshi... would simply cease to be contained within the organic human form. Awakening wholly from this dreamscape, the eternal soul would no longer hold to any boundaries and manifestation, at all.

In short, no matter what we call this whiteout experience, this blooming of Spirit, this Godhead experience, this dawning of illumination... we cannot make reference to it and BE IT, simultaneously. Only in complete stillness and silence, is That echoed, reflected and refracted exponentially, internally at that! Big grin


Quote:
I'm trying to put a name of the state We have both experienced but words can so not describe!

Exactly. But we are here, living in this very moment. We are existent in this nowness... so as long as we live, love and breath in mortal guise, we do ascribe names to these uber-subtle things.

Again, "trying not to try" is often a wholly fruitless endeavor. You know, merging within the vortexial fulcrum of the unformed, far beyond any membrane of self, propelled as awareness into the Infinite state... and yet, holding on to enough human reason to translate the quietude into comprehensible linguistics?

No words can capture the essence nor ground the epiphany to any conclusive degree. One must surrender and in so doing, evaporate as the watcher of the drama, incrementally so.

Lao Tzu wrote:

The Tao that can be described in words is not the Eternal Tao.

Amen to that! Thumbs up

Ciao for now, RS


There is no self to which I cling, for I am one with everything.
 
nen888
#100 Posted : 10/27/2014 9:39:04 AM
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..belated thank you for that post Rising Spirit..
have been in a lot of meditation and silence of late..and the advaitan perspective certainly helps to bring peace, and acceptance, allowing positive action and flow..
you wrote:
Quote:
The psychedelic experience can and in many peoples, facilitates Savikapla Samadhi. Cool

In other words, we all come down, separate from the Oneness and recrystallize as ego-selves, existing in a multiverse of thriving duality. As long as we understand that these semantics are within the realm of mortal illusion, we do not get too, too fixated on definitions and delineations between this and that. Neti, neti...
..very well put..yes
i don't know that Nirvikapla Samhadi is sustainable for most people..the body would deteriorate..such levels of merging/dissolving can happen spontaneously in some..
and realisation (even very transient) of the essence of reality can happen in any 'state', regardless of entheogens..
because consciousness is all possible states..

Quote:
Thus, if all is truly Void... even the concept of Sakyamuni's idea of Anatma, no-self or zero-self, is another illusion. For who is dreaming up this dream? Must there be an original cause to perceive of a reality of one? More so, how does one describe the indescribable?
..yes, this is like the refutation of the doctrine of void..but, what is there to describe..it can become quite circular going between advaitan and buddhist philosophy..trying to point to that which can't be pointed to..alluding to something which cannot be truly described..
if there's one thing (alluding to 'it' ) both schools agree on, it's OM Smile


"The essence of all beings is the earth, the essence of the earth is water,
the essence of water the plants, the essence of plants man, the essence of man speech,
the essence of speech the Rig-veda, the essence of the Rig-veda the Sâma-veda,
the essence of the Sâma-veda the udgîtha (which is Om) "

(Khandogya Upanishad)

.






 
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