Awesome stuff on the "Acacian Philosophy"
I've always considered myself to be a bit animistic - I've always seen things as having energies, mostly plants and animals, but even stones, gems etc... seem to pull me towards a greater understanding of this "Energy flow"

I tend to become obsessed with things like ID'ing a new cacti I found or a strange rock I dug up. I guess it's this thirst for knowledge about us, the universe and beyond that drew most of the people here, but it's the ability to give back and acknowledge the energy's willingness to share with you that defines you imo.

I have always given an offering of some sorts to a cacti/succulent when I take a cutting from the wild, and even when harvesting at home I do the same, usually a bit of milk or chocolate. A lot of my friends think it's a bit odd. But I truly believe all the magical plants were placed here with the intention of a symbiotic relationship eventually forming.(By who/what idk) but I like to think giving thanks for the blessing of these plant teachers is a small task for an infinite amount of knowledge that they can hold and share.

I hope this kind of attitude grows and we a species can once again feel the connections to the earth we once had. The majority of the Nexians I know seem to share a similar philosophy, and if there ar those that don't then I hope this philosophy makes then re-think their intentions.

Peace

Peace

Philosophy .. I remember a few years ago there was a group of people who wrote letters pretending to be authored by 4-5 year old children, to famous scientists. The letters asked: what is God ? It was a cheeky way of soliciting the religious views of people who would not ordinarily disclose them to anyone but their close friends and family. The reply that I think has the most relevance to the nexus went along the following lines: 'think of all the smartest people who have ever lived - NONE OF THEM KNOW ANY MORE THAN YOU DO'.

My experience with the nexus, and with others I've met that champion the spiritual dimension of tryptamines, shows that they know no more than anyone else. Apart from insights of a personal nature, that could easily be obtained via other means (quit smoking, find ... etc), I see things from people here that could only be compared to a drowning man, thinking he's saved because he knows the chemical composition of water. The wattles are not a panacea. William James says the index for gauging the value of any religious experience is the practical benefit it produces in your everyday life. Wattles have shown me that the spirit is real, but they're a blunt instrument for cultivating a personal relationship with it. I get a lot more from playing music, studying philosophy and having meaningful relationships. Some people may get it from sewing. There are virtually an infinite number of entry points.


So the message I got from the wattles is stop taking psychedelics. It's knocking on the open door. The message is 'you've been shown this a thousand times, it's pointless to stay here any longer'. It's like going walkabout in Chernobyl: it's incredibly beautiful, but if I stay there too long, I'll probably die. And it's not fair to keep doing that to plants. Only yalke ane alangkwe itne akngnirtnetyarte arlhe ampwe mapeke ane awele-awele, ane merne utyerrke, layake mission thayate-arle anetyarte arunthe anthurre alakenhe. People advocating a 'symbiosis' with the wattles need to have a more realistic estimation of human nature. How many people have smoked tryptamines from trees that they've grown themselves? is it not naive to think that a few words on an internet forum can change this ?


What do you people get from the wattles that can't be obtained more effectively via other means?

great post Seldom, as always.. a lot of your points I agree with, though I thought i'd offer my own perspective on a few of your comments

first of all, I agree that wattles/tryptamines are not the be all end all of "spiritual enlightenment", and one doesn't need to take a psychedelic to embark on a spiritual path (or keep taking them to retain that path) ..these trees for me though, were memorable catalysts in shaping the way I see the world today - and for that I am eternally grateful and tend to venerate them in a manner of worship... that worship needn't include continuing their consumption, but can also take place in the form of enjoying their presence in nature, growing them, even sharing ideas with others who are also passionate (like on the nexus)

certain tryptamines are quite unique in the magnitude of the experience they offer too, and from that perspective alone they hold potential to be very useful at differen't times in a persons life. I certainly don't feel like I need to keep going back to the acacia extracts these days, and like yourself find the greatest pleasure in expressing myself through music, connecting with others and increasingly of late, philosphy...but once in a while I still find it beneficial to connect with these teachers as they can help provide a fresh perspective, unburdened by my own preconceptions or egoical tricks I play on myself at times. as you pointed out though, the truths one may gain from tryptamines are really of a personal nature, and objectively may be seen as nothing particularly groundbreaking

the realms psychedelics connect me with are of awe inspiring beauty, and sometimes its even nice to treat myself to the experience with the intention of exploring the deep sensory pleasures that they offer.. I find this element of psychedelics incredibly useful for music. once in a while I like to take psychedelics with the intention of exploring music or visual art on a deeper level (I personally find trance parties for example quite useful platforms for this element). if that falls under the category of taking psychedelics recreationally (which seems taboo in the community) then I ask that people rethink whether this is an inherently negative way to use them. recreation can also hold a deep spiritual element to it - take dance, music and art for example.. even connecting with others is a form of recreation.. beauty is in the eye of the observer at the end of the day.

so personally I don't so much get the message that I need to stop taking psychedelics all together, but rather I get the message that I don't need them anymore to understand the world the way I do through the tryptamine lense. it has become a part of who I am and the way I look at the world around me, the situations I am confronted with, and the decisions I make. I certainly don't feel any need to take them often anymore and I'm still only young

I guess in answer to your question regarding what I get from wattles that I can't get via other means, my only answer can be the experience itself that is unleashed when I vape their extracts...and those experiences are still important to me even though I don't need to have them often anymore. they are important because of the can of worms that they have opened

great find on the Cinnamamide in A. longifolia DreaMTripper...thanks!


& nice to see you back Primal Wisdom...



Seldom ..always appreciate your views..
..what i was talking about (Acacianism) was the spiritual dimension of acacia trees..whatever is in them, and the relationship between them, the environment and humans..certainly tryptamines have opened the eyes of a few here to this, but the point was that the perspective widens..not everyone gets why a plant could be considered holy or sacred, but i'm not talking about knowledge (or knowing more), it is about devotion or reverence..
..this comes from the heart..there isn't much more to know..except that peoples and cultures with wisdom have various symbology and mythos connected to trees..and that the experiences people report of gnosis under trees can be remarkably similar..this shows similarity of insight, rather than any penultimate explanation..
spiritual practices, on the other hand, are varying techniques for insight or understanding..often developed over very long periods of time, by multiple people...i think we can learn a great deal from such approaches..they are collective wisdom, cultural knowledge (incl. spiritual) ..not just taking some plant..that's not enough..
..what i have frequently said is that i think the usage of tryptamines can only develop further insight or usefulness in one's life if supplemented with a disciplined or spiritual approach, or focus..whatever that may be..the ingestion of plants alone is not the kind of spiritual path i refer to..

i have also said before of tryptamine trees: after initial exposure most people don't keep taking them..but whether to continue, and how (healthily) varies for individuals..only a small handful have a path to work longterm with these, or other visionary plants, and it is dangerous to attempt to rely on them for spiritual development.. i believe multiple methods are required, e.g. meditation, health awareness, music, yoga/fitness, philosophy, enquiry etc.. even compassion..
principally, these trees are medicine plants, imo...as much for body as mind, if used wisely..this kind of wisdom can be passed on from others...teachers..who have studied deeply..in various traditions

..i know of only a handful, sure, [a few examples on the nexus] but this is increasing..but, would it be better not to advocate what may be termed by some an ethical, or 'proper' way? ..how else is awareness to grow?...if people had not written about the negativity of slavery a few hundred years ago, the awareness to abolish it would likely not have grown as rapidly..changing a handful of people's approach is better than changing none at all..

..ahh! well this is my point about my branch of Acacian philosophy..if you just want DMT there are effective, easier and faster growing sources..it's the Love for the trees themselves that draws the acacian to the wattle..
this is what eventually leads to a symbiotic approach..

summed up beautifully by acacian, acacian

The acacias and other entheogens are a catalyst for personal change, and provide direct concise communication. Other activities can provide access to the spiritual backdrop underlying everything, but the two-way dialogue between the plant and person is a more efficient and better catalyst then anything besides meditation, and is perhaps better then meditation because there is an obvious teacher intelligence present to point out perspectives the lone meditator might aver away from. Entheogens provide a challenge to the ego that meditation and other one-pointed activities do not. It comes down to which road you want to take, the gradual slope to the horizon or the uncomfortable bumpy express pass to the summit. Theres plenty of proof that things like mushrooms or ecstasy can provide accelerated healing of the psyche that would take years of psychotherapy. Its the same concept, it just depends on how fast you want to get to the end goal.

Another thing to consider is that medicinal plants very likely produce the useful alkaloids and other components to encourage cultivation by man and to increase the survival of their species. Watch one of the plant intelligence documentaries, plants warp and mold themselves inside and out in every conceivable permutation to attract the attention of mobile critters. If acacias did not want to be harvested they would have far fewer useful attributes and would not have evolved into the Total Tree descriptor talked about here.

The message you received is a personal one, you have apparently received the `full' message and don't need to access that door any longer. There was a dialog between Robert Hunter and Terrance Mckenna I read on Erowid where Hunter said that after 1,000+ dmt jurneys the spice told him he had to stop or he would lose access to the gnosis. Here is an excerpt:

Terence,
in reading your books I was struck with how closely your DMT experiments paralleled my own. I wasn't surprised by the confirmation, as you might guess. I considered myself a serious DMT explorer between 1967-69. I stopped only because I was told to, in no uncertain terms, by the Boss of that place. Three times, in fact, to my dismay. Disobedience was costly. I was informed that I'd been shown all that was mine to know, to use that, and not try to extract more. I've written of the classes and varieties of DMT experience in a chapter of my journal, memoirs, and will send it along at some point. The experiences were commanding and altered my grasp of reality. DMT invokes the various dimensions of its domain through pathways characterized by brisk rhythms.
Robert Hunter

I haven't received this message yet, nor have most of us here. So the school is still open and we have alot to learn. The wattles are here to facilitate that.

___________________________________________________________________________________________
a mind is made of words
words are made of fear

..thank you for that perspective Pharmacognosis..

you wrote: ..this is a good point which i was also making a couple of years ago in the thread..
in the case of many of these acacias it is the presence of alkaloids which has lead to the increased interest in growing them...thus they are now colonising parts of the globe they had not previously..
this is also why, despite having many reservations, i wrote about them in the thread...their increased cultivation increases their long term survival, despite initially opening them up to the danger of exploitation and mistreatment..i do resonate with some of Seldom's concerns regarding aspects of human nature and the exploitation of the environment..this is why a core message has been GROW them...
in much of the world now this is exactly what the interested are doing..
in australia i would hope people would have learned already what the selfish exploitation of resources can do to the land...such as the Red Cedar...once common, reduced to near extinction in 50-70 years, and still extremely rare..
but i hope that through information, people become more intelligent..

Pharmacognosis also wrote: ..this is plant-teacher philosophy, which i resonate with...the plant replaces the guru when no such teacher or wise person can be found...but this only really works with an attitude of complete respect for the plant as a living being (as one would treat a human teacher) ..i believe the more one gives, the more one will receive..
if we as a species over-exploit i think the dialogue would become increasingly strained..
i have seen evidence that trees which have had bark taken produce nasty phenolic defence compounds to discourage mistreatment..
the work by nexians to demonstrate the effective use of phyllodes is in both plant and human interests..

the nexus, though, represents a very small minority of the population, and just as in traditional cultures only a very small percentage of people were on-going 'shamans' or yogis, i think for the majority of people the experience need not be frequent or regular, but can serve as an insight which can be carried throughout life..if there's one thing true curanderos, or yogis have in common, it's that they say the path is not easy..

i think Seldom's gnosis of 'seen enough now'/'what more do you need to see?' is where this leads for all in the end, and for most, after a short period of learning, if they are truly learning..

and of the spiritual path some say: 'better not to begin..once you begin you had better finish'
.

had better finish . i love that ^

n.b - in saying

i mean this only in relation to my experiences. Of coarse every person's journey is unique, irrevocable, and unrepeatable .. i'm always genuinely fascinated by what i find in this thread, but in terms of personal philosophy i have to concur with the old Taoist adage, that those who tread different paths rarely have anything of value to exchange . but i love yall just the same


Upaya, crazy diamonds

Hey everyone. I have a follow up article to the previous one I posted on (Beyond the Machine Elves) that has musings on metaphysics, a rare unknown form of Sound Yoga and how it relates to the DMT experience. The last article was shared over 400 times in a short 48 hours, and I think I owe a big thank you to those here at the forum who may have seen or shared it. It is also a review of Patrick Lundborg's essential text "Psychedelia" which has one of the best chapters on DMT and Ayahuasca I have ever seen.

I know this is technically an interruption to the thread and you have my apologies for that. I have no other way to post, and am still awaiting full membership

http://realitysandwich.c...ed-out-book-psychedelia/

ok...returning to Sacred Trees..and Total Trees...& Acacias..(before i go back to writing that book)

أشجار مقدسة



...let's go back to old Arabia..


[The History of al-Tabari Vol. 9: The Last Years of the Prophet:  By Ṭabarī]

(a sacred acacia (al-samurah) at al-Nakhla, between Mecca and al-Ta'if, was considered the embodiment of the goddess al-Uzza..)


[Bedouin Ethnobotany: Plant Concepts and Uses in a Desert Pastoral World By James P. Mandaville]




in the middle-east sacred trees are regarded as the abode of the saints' souls..

the Bedouin maintain ancient rituals..

[Rituals, ceremonies and customs related to sacred trees with a special reference to the Middle East
Amots Dafni]

below, the Bedouin and the sacred acacia...


peace unto all of you

I have been going all of these pages and I can't seem to find any tryptamine acacias that would grow in the upper regions of US, for example a 6A zone. I would love to start planting them around my area if possible.

In https://www.dmt-nexus.me...osts&t=38229&p=1 Nen gives the temperature range of acacia as down to -12 °C (10.4 °F) .They may take briefly down to -15°C (5 °F) but Zone 6a I'd say is too cold for outdoor planting.
(Phalaris would grow there though that's probably not a very Acacian thing to say.)

Still much enjoying the thread.

Greetings Acacians! Today I was gifted a few substantial pieces of Acacia erioloba bark from trees in the Kalahari. Such gratitude! I'll be attempting an extraction near the end of this month and will post results. Much love to all

nen, do you have a source for the claim that 4-Hydroxy-2-piperidinecarboxylic acid is a NMDA-receptor agonist? I can find such info for a related compound but not this, unless it's going by a name I don't recognise.

..i'm glad you asked wira..
(actually, i wasn't at first as i had misplaced my virtual notes, but recovered them.. )
the answer leads in an interesting direction..

so..the sources are: (technically it was the sulphate)
"NMDA receptor heterogeneity in mammalian tissues: focus on two agonists, (2S,3R,4S) cyclopropylglutamate and the sulfate ester of 4-hydroxy-(S)-pipecolic acid." Moroni, F., Galli, A., Mannaioni, G., Carla, V., Cozzi, A., Mori, F., Marinozzi, M., Pellicciari, R. Naunyn Schmiedebergs Arch. Pharmacol. (1995)
and "Enantioselective Synthesis of Naturally Occurring trans‐4‐Hydroxy‐S‐pipecolic Acid‐4‐sulfate, a New Potent and Selective NMDA Receptor Agonist." R Pellicciari, B Natalini, R Luneia, M Marinozzi… - …(1993)

4-Hydroxy-2-piperidinecarboxylic acid
is synonymous with 4-hydroxy-(S)-pipecolic acid
and is also synonymous with Pegaline..

Pegaline is a minor component of Peganum harmala seeds..
it is the primary alkaloid in the leaves of the species [Kuwaiti Plants: Distribution, Traditional Medicine, Pytochemistry By B.S. Middleditch]
.

..great xantho..look forward..i find that species has a certain mystique..good to hear from you again..

The Meddling Monk (hi there) wrote:
..your advice to notsure is correct..in areas of england which go below minus-12°C some species (such as mucronata) die back to the base over winter, and re-shoot in spring..but they still survive..

as for Phalaris, i think this is the plant to address the increased interest in tryptamines worldwide, due to the more widespread growing parameters (phalaris is in Iceland!) , and fast growth..

..acacias are i think a more specialised devotion, with an appeal simply as trees, as well as soil rehabilitators..as i discussed before of course..

.

Just as a bit of a bump, this thread is the the most comprehensive source of psychoactive phytochemical info for wattles that's available online, and as nen888 has said in the past it was started in part as an experiment in information dissemination.

The information here is admirably extensive for an internet thread, and I would remind contributors and browsers alike that no one owns this information, not nen888, acacian or The Traveler - no one - and as such, there is a huge variety of things that can be done with it. The form and medium is limited only by the imagination of those who encounter it.



So a question to the acacians - What can people do with the information that's here ?

Thinking 'out loud': The first thing that comes to my mind is the formation of local and informal Acacia Appreciation Nodes in the areas where we live. I'm sure that many such groups are already operating in many places around the world. Our growth as acacians is greatly empowered and strengthened through our connections here, and I believe this would be enhanced further by collaborations and face-to-face sharing of our love in the areas where we live. Such groups might eventually become formalized, helping to define localised guidelines for the implementation of acacia planting for eco-systemic benefit.

The Nodes could serve multiple functions: 1) Sharing seed and live plants with others in the area; 2) Helping others to grow the plants through the sharing of information, techniques, raw materials; 3) Researching and reporting on the history of acacia engagement in the area; 4) Planning and conducting reforestation projects founded on acacias; 5) Organizing acacia walks to visit trees in 'natural' settings (could also serve as sustainable harvesting and seed collection trips); 6) Using acacias as an entry-point or nexus for ecological learning, by tracing the threads of interspecies connections; 7) Establishing and maintaining acacia seed banks representative of local species.

I suppose a lot of this is about sharing a passion for acacias with other acacians, but also - and perhaps more importantly - bringing in individuals who may not be tryptamine heads but whose engagement with acacias on other levels might bring them, and potentially their ecosystem, great benefit. Looking forward to reading what thoughts others have.

I truly believe many in the fields of botany, cultural studies and phytochemical studies will use this thread for years to come thanks to nen88 and cos' wealth of information put forward.
I also hope it will encourage those with a concience to think twice about reckless wild harvesting in the search for tryptamines.
A dream is that in the future when there will inevitably be ethical 'tryptamine and acacia education farms/ retreats'
that this thread will have played a large part in previously influencing the future power brokers to realise that eco-freindly entheogenic research and exploration of consciouness in a safe educational setting should be legal and will only have a positive effect on society.

..before i address Seldom's latest philosophical question
xantho wrote: ..great vision xantho! joyous application of information...see you at your local Node



and DreaMTripper...look forward to seeing you at the acacia education farm...good on you mate!



Seldom wrote:

..yes..nobody owns this information...or any information for that matter..(though some may with-hold some)

even the information in a published book is not owned..the exact wording and format may be subject to copyright laws, but, i could for instance take all the information in, say, Ott's Pharmacotheon or Shulgin's Tikhal, and simply re- phrase it, not breaking copyright...the information would be the same, not the wording..
(though believing in truth and transparency i would cite where the information had come from so that others might check)
in fact, i don't think someone who composes a piece of music actually 'owns' it (despite copyright laws)
..nor do i believe in land ownership..who made the land?
once information is released it is in the public domain, the collective knowledge..it can't be stopped (one of the points of the thread's information theory)

part of the reason for what i put in this thread was to level the playing field of who had access to information..to create a clear avenue for those wanting to know about this field (& because some were unethically using information)

another reason was for future generations of both human and plant...that people might save the seed..and to increase diversity..

another initial reason was to increase the information...throw out a line and see what comes back..

(personally, what i could do with the specific information is get on to putting together the long awaited pdf of it.. )

by increasing the collective information, knowledge is accelerated..we all learn something..

the thread still exists..it is the medium..it isn't static..
even if the nexus were shut down the thread is still preserved in internet archive sites..

now, i have questioned a few times why i got involved in this thread...what good does it do?
in the end, i felt compelled 'under the trees' to do it, just for a little while (i've gone on longer than intended)
i just remain trusting in that..we are all mediums of information..custodians of what we find..
which we do not own..

but remember, information can be dangerous...use it wisely

stay well all acacians

and deepest thanks to the trees...i hope you're treated kindly..that's what i hope they do with the information..
.

anyhow..

..Allah knows best..

[Alahazrat, Mujaddid, Ash Shah Imam Ahmad Raza Khan (Alaihir Rahmah)]

ﷺ




..the Al-Miqat Mosque, Saudi Arabia:
"The Shajarah or the tree after which this mosque was named was
an acacia tree at Dhul Hulaifa area under which the Prophet had sat. "
[http://www.taibanet.com/showthread.php?t=15476]


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