We've Moved! Visit our NEW FORUM to join the latest discussions. This is an archive of our previous conversations...

You can find the login page for the old forum here.
CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
12NEXT
How I create an Ayahuasca experience that is amazing for me :) Options
 
brokenChild
#1 Posted : 10/21/2013 6:04:44 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 463
Joined: 15-Sep-2013
Last visit: 07-Jul-2014
Location: There, not here yet
MODERATOR wrote:
The original thread title has been changed due to this thread being more the personal way the OP is gaining his Ayahusca experiences than a general rule of thumb for Ayahuasca use.



First, visit the all about aya thread sticky, linked Here for a general introduction and a wonderful write-up.

Secondly, a few words about this;
ms_manic_minxx wrote:
If a person panics and feels tempted to call 911--experiencing the process of death is quite common, but not physically dangerous, though extremely shocking the first time--this is BAD NEWS for everyone, the drinker, the entire entheogenic community and the spirit of Ayahuasca. Please, please, please take care, and do not take the sacrament lightly!!


*WARNING: The "unmanageability" and "feelings of insanity" in an Ayahuasca experience multiply EXPONENTIALLY with the presence of admixture plants. It is my advice, then, to first brew admixture materials separately, and begin experimenting with them one at a time, after acquainting oneself with vine-only brews. When an experience begins, the drinker is locked down for hours, and an ungrounded experience with too much admixture CAN result in TERRIBLE PANIC. Some common "servings" of admixtures are mentioned below, as INFORMATIONAL GUIDELINES ONLY. One should always begin slowly, cautiously, with any admixture, to determine the strength. One may have weak materials that require twice as much as "standard"--or incredibly powerful, mind-ripping materials that require 1/4 as much. Do not be foolish! The admixture is also sometimes referred to as "the light;" I suggest making the vine a lover and bringing a romantic candle or two for a journey deep into the heart, rather than seeing the vine as something desired and chasing after with the helicopter search lights. Patience is a virtue...


The feelings of "fear" or "death" or "insanity" need to be absolutely fully, and clearly understood, so one can have an enjoyable and fully-healing experience that this medicine is absolutely capable of offering.

If you respect the dosage, and do everything CONSCIOUSLY, then you will have zero issues going through and integrating the experience properly into your own life. This is where meditation comes in, and is absolutely vital. You don't need any prior guidance or preparation, and you don't need to be "taught" how to "meditate". What is meditation? Simply put, it is being absolutely conscious of all of your actions, intentions, feelings; just basic self-awareness within your given situation. So please don't get stuck on terms, the basic thing is to be conscious throughout the whole experience. Now let's take a look at the finer points;

PANIC/FEAR: Because this will be a new experience for the newcomer, and those unfamiliar to it, there is bound to be a certain level of fear associated with it. Do NOT FEAR fear, just accept it, and look at it as a thing. Consciously look into it, and understand it... like it's a thing. Some fears are rational, some fears are not, fear is absolutely a natural reaction so there is no need to fear it; simple understanding is enough. As far as panic goes, just look at it as a thing, and confront it CONSCIOUSLY, just like everything else... it's just a natural reaction, that's all, no need to get panicky, just be aware of it, conscious of it, and pass through it CONSCIOUSLY... it's just a very momentary and temporary thing. Once the experience starts there's no panic whatsoever... if it does creep up just consciously confront it, look at it, see it, understand it, and accept it; there is no need to fear it, it's a natural reaction.

DEATH: Basically put, most fears lead to one basic source in life, in one way or another; the fear of death. Why do we fear death? Because we simply do not understand it. Drop your fear of death, NO ONE HAS DIED PHYSICALLY FROM THE AYA EXPERIENCE if everything is taken into full respect, including the medical interactions with other drugs, diet, and other physical ailments/impairments that may limit one from safely going through the experience. So, if you avoid prescription drugs, and read all the warning labels in the Aya sticky, and you feel like naturally you are capable of going through the experience physically and mentally then you most certainly will not die.

This Death aspect needs to be understood clearly; if you are CONSCIOUS throughout the whole experience, and are fully rooted in this consciousness... conscious of every action, every nuanace, every feeling inside your body and on the emotional level, then you cannot die. DEATH CANNOT HAPPEN TO CONSCIOUSNESS... CONSCIOUSNESS IS INTRINSICALLY ETERNAL.


So, ladies and gentlemen, do not fear Death, simply be rooted in your own consciousness, and consciously confront it. And then you will see the sheer absurdity of all of your fears. Also do not fear fear itself, simply CONSCIOUSLY confront it, and you will see that there isn't much in it.. once you understand it consciously, or confront it with your own consciousness, then you will clearly understand it's function in life; it's just a necessary part and parcel of the whole experience... there's absolutely NO harm in it.

CRAZYNESS; INSANITY: This also needs to be clearly understood. You are NOT going to go mentally crazy and insane on Ayahuasca, in fact, it will give you the necessary and natural RIGHT knowledge for your own life. It just gives you a different perspective of very conscious insight into your own existence, it is PURE GOLD; PURE LOVE. It cannot harm you. So, don't be afraid of going crazy, just be CONSCIOUS and go into the process CONSCIOUSLY, and you cannot go crazy, you will CONSCIOUSLY see everything that Aya is capable of revealing to you. It cannot function without your openness and allowance...

CONCLUSION: If you just stay CONSCIOUS and aware of every nuance of the whole experience, and confront every aspect of the experience consciously, you will be enriched beyond belief by this wonderful medicine. It's as simple as that. The medicine does the work, all it takes from you is to respect the dosage, be conscious, and be present, and confront everything CONSCIOUSLY, and Ayahuasca does all the work. The entire journey is SELF-DIRECTED. YOU don't have to do ANYTHING once the experience gets going. Just be present, and be conscious, and ALLOW IT. It is a happening, not a doing. One last note, always be sincere and true to yourself, if you don't understand something, you are absolutely free to ask Aya for guidance and understanding, just be clear "I do not know" or "I do not understand" and it will present everything to you in such a way that you understand. If you just remain true and sincere to yourself, you do not have to be a perfect person, there are no conditions on the moral aspect for taking ayahuasca. It will reveal everything to you as long as you are open, accepting, and sincere.

Just stay conscious throughout the whole thing, and confront every challenge with consciousness (do not deny, neglect, repress, or be ignorant of anything; just be aware of everything as it happens and confront everything with consciousness and innocent inquiry, and you simply CANNOT go wrong.

The intention of the thread is to relieve the grips of panic/fear and issues of death through basic understanding, which are common to mostly all successful ayahuasca attempts. That's all, that simple.

It's not that I'm trying to give my experience to you (any "you"Pleased, because that would be impossible. I'm simply setting a general set of guidelines (which, in themselves are pretty basic; don't drink too much or too little, make sure all safety measures and precautions are understood, and consciously confront the experience as it comes; don't fear fear, consciously confront it, look into it and understand it/ don't fear panic, consciously confront it, look into it and understand it/ don't fear death, consciously confront that fear, look into it and understand it. Don't avoid anything, consciously confront it, look into it and understand it. You can't control the experience, it's a self-directed happening, you can only be present, and conscious in it. Enjoy the ride)

Those things are common to all experiences. Individual experiences will be unique and specific to that individual. Of course we can't give our experiences to one another, that's not in the nature of things. But I figured this just put out some groundwork for someone to be conscious in their experience to get the most out of it; for those that are unfamiliar with the experience alltogether/ basic beginner intro expanding on the aya sticky.


One more thing I will mention. Generally speaking, we are conditioned to live life from a purely rational-mind perspective, but that's just ONE part of your mind and it's abilities... this linear, time-constrained way of thinking. Aya gives you insight into the Irrational mind (or, both actually if you're aware of the whole experience) Mind you, irrational does NOT mean crazy (it's just more intuitive, less logic-oriented), it's just another aspect of thinking, or perceiving the world. The trick then, is to use both creatively, balance both, equally. When you need to use one, use one, and when you need to use the other, use the other. They're two aspects of the same mind, two halves of the whole tool. Use it as you need it, just be consciously balanced; accept both.




Final mention; What Can I Expect?
This is a wonderful question to consider, that applies to many other areas of life, so let's take a look at it.

What can I expect to gain? Or, what is a realistic expectation?

Nothing, truth be told. Do not expect anything! What do I mean by this? Basically put, any and all of your expectations are going to be wrong. All expectations are wrong, because all expectations are unnatural. If you expect a specific result, there is EVERY CHANCE that you will be frustrated. Expectation, in it's nature, leads to frustration... in it's very nature.
I'm just uncovering the fallacy... how many times have you expected something to happen, and something completely different happened alltogether... then u're left frustrated. The frustration is because of expectation. The outcome of expectation is frustration, so frustration is reactive of expectation...

Just the way things are. If we drop expectation tho, then everything that happens is unexpected, adds to the mystery And then whether you have a full blown experience, or a dud experience where you just advance your personal brewing skills, everything is equally appreciated cuz you get what you get, there's no expectation so there's no frustration, then whatsoever happens is just dandy. Then it's just a pure experience.

we don't have to do anything with frustration, we simply need to understand what expectation is properly... so let's take a look at that;

What is expectation?
Your expectation is always for a specific result. If your expectation gets fulfilled, then you will be happy. But if it does not, then you will feel cheated somewhere and will be frustrated with life because it's not going according to your expectations. And expectations are rarely fulfilled... Let's take a look at why, with a quick example;

Example;
Let's assume that you have heard, from all over the world, that hazlenuts are the best nuts in the world. You've never tried a hazlenut before, but since everyone seems to be making the same statement, you wanna see if there is any truth to it. So, you decide you're going to grow your own hazelnut tree. So you spend 2 thousand dollars, and 2 years of labor growing and nurturing this tree. Your only desire is to try one hazelnut, pure and natural, to see what everyone is talking about... So when the harvest time finally comes around, you pick the first nut you come to, and you expect it to have nuts... you're very excited, you go to your kitchen, get a nutcracker, and break the nut open... and lo and behold;

IT'S EMPTY. BECAUSE YOU WERE EXPECTING A NUT, YOU ARE GOING TO BE PISSED OFF AND FRUSTRATED, AND MAY CURSE THE WHOLE TREE OUT OF THAT FRUSTRATION.

The thing is, your expectation was NOT unrealistic... it simply wasn't according to the way life functions. All expectations are for a specific result, for a desired effect... for one potential possibility of fruit from the tree of nature. But the tree itself does not live according to your expectations, the tree provides both... good nuts, and the occasional empty bad nut; this is just the way things are. Now, if you were expecting a good nut, and you get an empty dud, you will be pissed off, curse the tree, and curse the whole world for lying to you. You may burn the tree and tell all your friends off... but, if you didn't have any expectations, and you opened a nut, saw it was empty, saw the facticity of it, you wouldn't be frustrated because you had no expectations in the first place, you just wanted to see what it was... so you move on to the next nut on the tree, and lo and behold;

EUREKA! The holy grail of hazelnuts! The tree is capable of providing both, but the tree does so unrelated to your expectations. So to expect any specific desired result, is simply setting yourself up for a possible frustration. Either expect ALL possible results, or drop expectation all together.

So then what am I supposed to do?

If you follow all the proper safety measures, do what you can to brew your stuff correctly, follow the proper diet restrictions where necessary, and start off low in dosage and safely work your way up to the sweet spot, eventually you will hit a point of full experience.... But it's never really guaranteed, so for some it may take a few tries to get it down right, for others they may get it right on the first or second try... everything is relative. Just do what you can with what you got consciously, and follow the necessary measures and precautions and everything will work out one way or another; but there are no guarantees Smile

Be VERY CAREFUL with the dosing especially with the triptamines, Caapi is fairly forgiving; Patience is Key! Pleased

Thank you for reading, and enjoy the journey; just relax into it, there is nothing to fear. Thumbs up

p.s. Another tid-bit of very useful information; Medicinal and Spiritual Qualities of Ayahuasca and pretty much every other drug


KEEP IN MIND: Every experience is unique and individual, and no two journeys are the same, so don't compare your previous journey to your next one so on and so forth; every journey is its own mystery, unique in every way.

Please consider all of the information provided, and use own best judgement; at the end of the day YOU are responsible for own actions/decisions. Just the way life works Razz
 

Live plants. Sustainable, ethically sourced, native American owned.
 
inaniel
#2 Posted : 10/21/2013 6:51:04 PM

mas alla del mar


Posts: 331
Joined: 21-Jul-2011
Last visit: 05-Jul-2021
Quite enjoyed this, thank you, especially as I intend to journey with Aya tomorrow. The fear has previously held me back from having a deep experience, I've been meditating on this consciously everyday for a few weeks now. This post seems to synchronize perfectly with my general state of being, put into words in a manner I was unable to. Much appreciated!
 
brokenChild
#3 Posted : 10/21/2013 6:59:57 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 463
Joined: 15-Sep-2013
Last visit: 07-Jul-2014
Location: There, not here yet
I'm just glad it was helpful Smile Enjoy your journey Razz

One more thing I will mention. Generally speaking, we are conditioned to live life from a purely rational-mind perspective, but that's just ONE part of your mind and it's abilities... this linear, time-constrained way of thinking. Aya gives you insight into the Irrational mind (or, both actually if you're aware of the whole experience) Mind you, irrational does NOT mean crazy (it's just more intuitive, less logic-oriented), it's just another aspect of thinking, or perceiving the world. The trick then, is to use both, balance both, equally. When you need to use one, use one, and when you need to use the other, use the other. They're two aspects of the same mind, two halves of the whole tool. Use it as you need it, just be consciously balanced; accept both.
 
jamie
#4 Posted : 10/21/2013 7:21:02 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growingSenior Member | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growing

Posts: 12340
Joined: 12-Nov-2008
Last visit: 02-Apr-2023
Location: pacific
"If you respect the dosage, and do everything CONSCIOUSLY, then you will have zero issues going through and integrating the experience properly into your own life"

At some point, if you follow this path deep enough you are going to die reguardless. It is going to be fucking horrible and you feel like your going insane and it is not something you just integrate overnight, or avoid because you are "conscious"(just saying). Full on ayahuasca death is like a right of passage on this path. There are parts of this work that are just not easy and I don't see any way around it.

We all have ego's, and we all face them.

There is no nice or pretty way around this IME. When you experience real ayahuasca death(and I question sometimes who has actually experienced this) there is nothing fun or enjoyable about it. It is the most horrifying thing I ever experienced in my life and I never repeated it. I cant bring myself to drink that much ayahuasca again. Im talking like 4x your normal high dose of vine and then admixture on top. That's like jungle death.
Long live the unwoke.
 
brokenChild
#5 Posted : 10/21/2013 7:26:17 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 463
Joined: 15-Sep-2013
Last visit: 07-Jul-2014
Location: There, not here yet
Sure, but if you do so consciously, or pass through it consciously, or confront it consciously, then it's not going to be nearly as terrible. I've done both, the first experience I simply didn't know what to expect, and ended up purging sideways on the floor in what looked like a temporary epileptic fit. The second time I confronted the same scenario/fear/death consciously, and simply passed through it, with FULL consciousness. No purge, no "fits", was a purely and simply amazing experience. Came back to tell the tale Smile Tho if the purge does come up, then just let it come up. If it doesn't, then it doesn't. Sometimes it's part of the process and is necessary, just be aware of it is all.
 
Du57mi73
#6 Posted : 10/21/2013 7:41:26 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 699
Joined: 06-Jul-2012
Last visit: 20-Dec-2018
Being experienced with spice I decided to try my first aya trial last month. I did WAY too much. Partially did too much on purpose, and partially on accident. I ended up taking 500mg harmaline hcl and 600mg dmt freebase, all mixed into OJ. Before this aya experience I felt fully capable of handling massive doses of lsd, mushrooms, and other psychadelics. But during this aya trial I fully experienced this "death" and have learned where my limits are. I never plan on doing aya again, even in smaller doses. It was not at all pleasurable but I learned an extremely high amount of information regarding myself and numerous other things.

Please dose safely and start off SMALL no matter how much you think you can handle.
"I am cursed by the blossoming knowledge of my feminine ideal and she looks suspiciously like you."

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." -AE
 
brokenChild
#7 Posted : 10/21/2013 7:46:52 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 463
Joined: 15-Sep-2013
Last visit: 07-Jul-2014
Location: There, not here yet
Du57mi73 wrote:


Please dose safely and start off SMALL no matter how much you think you can handle.

Absolutely! I feel like everyone has a personal "sweet spot" when it comes to dosing. I.E. just the right amount to "break through" and have the fullness of the experience. Anything less than that, will not provide the full breakthrough, and anything more than that, can be chaotic and decoherent. So it's essential to slowly and consciously work one's way into this sweet zone; just feel it out for yourself. Thanks for sharing that by the way, is a very valid point.
 
jamie
#8 Posted : 10/21/2013 7:58:17 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growingSenior Member | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growing

Posts: 12340
Joined: 12-Nov-2008
Last visit: 02-Apr-2023
Location: pacific
It takes a lot to get to that level man. I have had ayahuasca "breakthroughs" many times, similar to vaporized DMT..and its intense and I might vomit a lot and get anxious at times and go out there etc but there is always some part of me left there to observe and be in it. In well over 100 ayahuasca ceremonies I only reached the level I am talking about there I experience complete death, dissolve into little bits of energy with no memory of being human, and shoot through some kind of wormhole into some kind of other universe once. Once you are on the other side at that level, its not even like hyperspace anymore. It was something I cant even talk about, and going into it and coming out of it was beyond what I know of being human..

Telling myself I am not dying at that point was futile. I knew I was not dying. But I couldn't find my face, I eas turning into giant birds, and then blowing away in winds that never existed, I became clouds of rain, raining down and evaporating and raining down again for millions of years..all leading up to a coming out of death. There was fractions of time going into it where I could understand that I was in my body but I could not work it. I could not even roll over properly to puke, I felt like I was swallowing my tounge, could not swallow water, I could not walk to the bathroom(I could not stand properly because things like "up" and "gravity" were not existing"..my head was like a whirlpool and I was surrounded by a group of buzzing huge mantids observing me the while time up to the point of my death..and then that part I just cant speak about because parts of it just cant fit back into a 3d space I think, and other parts I blocked out. Nearly 2 years later and many more sessions and tons of vaporized breakthroughs and I am still trying to integrate that day. Something about my me has never been the same(and for a while was not right) since that day. I gained some kind of psychic/mental powers for a while that I did not understand.

Im not sure if you are suggesting people can just drink as much ayahuasca as they want and they can choose to just remain conscious and not fear? It doesn't work that way for me. I thought I knew what a high dose was before that day, what I realized is that what these people do in the jungle is probly on a level that the west is not even ready to get close to. Some of these guys are drinking like 3-500g worth of vine in a shot. With or without admix that's is going to be a whole other ballgame.

I later drank 1/4 of the vine I drank that day, with less admixture and it was still almost too much and went for over 8 hours. The vine was an insanely strong batch, and had minxx not drunk far less than me that first time we tested it I would have been in a really dangerous place. The only reason I did not piss all over myself and swallow my own puke I am sure is because she was still sober enough to take care of me.

My point is that I don't think most people are ready for that kind of thing. I think that 99.9% of people are probly not ready, if anyone. Of course you survive it, but you pass through true hell on the way to enlightenment. I would never have done that willingly, but I do believe it was sopposed to happen. This for me, is what makes ayahuasca a true medicine. It is not all fluffy. You cant hide from it. You cant gloat in it's shadow. Ayahuasca shows us that we don't know anything, while at the same time there are likely true masters living off in the jungles of this world we will never meet. It is for me, one of the only true alchemical tools we have.
Long live the unwoke.
 
Du57mi73
#9 Posted : 10/21/2013 8:10:02 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 699
Joined: 06-Jul-2012
Last visit: 20-Dec-2018
I think the point the OP's trying to get across is that these things happen to us all, on different levels with different doses and that we should be less afraid of them happening and to learn from them.
"I am cursed by the blossoming knowledge of my feminine ideal and she looks suspiciously like you."

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." -AE
 
jbark
#10 Posted : 10/21/2013 8:14:50 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Senior Member

Posts: 2854
Joined: 16-Mar-2010
Last visit: 01-Dec-2023
Location: montreal
With all due respect, I think putting on rose coloured glasses for this type of experience is a bit reckless. While I have also heard, and tend to believe (for the most part) the "no one has died from it" mantra , I am not so sure about the sanity side of things. It would not surprise me greatly if some have had post-ayahusca psychological difficulties, perhaps even extreme. Rare, certainly, but of sufficient note that to claim otherwise is dubious.

I suspect Jamie won't respond to your response, as it would be very difficult without it tipping into a pissing contest - a discouraged thing around here. Again, with respect due, maybe you haven't been there? Maybe there are levels of fear and terror beyond what you have been subjected to?

I think what Jamie was intimating is that there is a very uncomfortable level where the fear of certain death seems imminent, but after that (and many of us here have been there) a state of "I am not dying because I never existed", then a "it was all an illusion and now I am unremembering everything that was me", followed by a "this extreme terror and pain is a natural state and will continue tormenting my NOT-I for THE REST OF ETERNITY." There is no holding on, no grappling with your consciousness, no facing your fear and looking at what it is, no confronting your consciousness, no self directing - for there is no consciousness, no self, only extreme abject horror and the gaping, eternal and infinite abyss!

There is much to be learned from these experiences, but to say there is nothing to fear, or that if you simply confront your fear you can control it, is something either far, far beyond my own personal abilities and experience and those of many here, or simply quite impossible and not really a desirable goal.

I do like your write-up and see much value in this approach, but I think it is limited in its application. I think it is important to have intent while at once accepting that there is a good chance, if the dose is high enough (or if your mindset is conducive), that any attempt to control it, or direct or even be "conscious" of it, is beyond fruitless. Accept what comes.

Cheers,

JBArk

EDIT: I guess Jamie beat me to it, but managed to do so without turning it into a "pissing contest". Smile
JBArk is a Mandelthought; a non-fiction character in a drama of his own design he calls "LIFE" who partakes in consciousness expanding activities and substances; he should in no way be confused with SWIM, who is an eminently data-mineable and prolific character who has somehow convinced himself the target he wears on his forehead is actually a shield.
 
brokenChild
#11 Posted : 10/21/2013 8:20:48 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 463
Joined: 15-Sep-2013
Last visit: 07-Jul-2014
Location: There, not here yet
jamie wrote:
It takes a lot to get to that level man. I have had ayahuasca "breakthroughs" many times, similar to vaporized DMT..and its intense and I might vomit a lot and get anxious at times and go out there etc but there is always some part of me left there to observe and be in it. In well over 100 ayahuasca ceremonies I only reached the level I am talking about there I experience complete death, dissolve into little bits of energy with no memory of being human, and shoot through some kind of wormhole into some kind of other universe once. Once you are on the other side at that level, its not even like hyperspace anymore. It was something I cant even talk about, and going into it and coming out of it was beyond what I know of being human..

Telling myself I am not dying at that point was futile. I knew I was not dying. But I couldn't find my face, I eas turning into giant birds, and then blowing away in winds that never existed, I became clouds of rain, raining down and evaporating and raining down again for millions of years..all leading up to a coming out of death. There was fractions of time going into it where I could understand that I was in my body but I could not work it. I could not even roll over properly to puke, I felt like I was swallowing my tounge, could not swallow water, I could not walk to the bathroom(I could not stand properly because things like "up" and "gravity" were not existing"..my head was like a whirlpool and I was surrounded by a group of buzzing huge mantids observing me the while time up to the point of my death..and then that part I just cant speak about because parts of it just cant fit back into a 3d space I think, and other parts I blocked out. Nearly 2 years later and many more sessions and tons of vaporized breakthroughs and I am still trying to integrate that day. Something about my me has never been the same(and for a while was not right) since that day. I gained some kind of psychic/mental powers for a while that I did not understand.

Im not sure if you are suggesting people can just drink as much ayahuasca as they want and they can choose to just remain conscious and not fear? It doesn't work that way for me. I thought I knew what a high dose was before that day, what I realized is that what these people do in the jungle is probly on a level that the west is not even ready to get close to. Some of these guys are drinking like 3-500g worth of vine in a shot. With or without admix that's is going to be a whole other ballgame.

I later drank 1/4 of the vine I drank that day, with less admixture and it was still almost too much and went for over 8 hours. The vine was an insanely strong batch, and had minxx not drunk far less than me that first time we tested it I would have been in a really dangerous place. The only reason I did not piss all over myself and swallow my own puke I am sure is because she was still sober enough to take care of me.

My point is that I don't think most people are ready for that kind of thing. I think that 99.9% of people are probly not ready, if anyone. Of course you survive it, but you pass through true hell on the way to enlightenment. I would never have done that willingly, but I do believe it was sopposed to happen. This for me, is what makes ayahuasca a true medicine. It is not all fluffy. You cant hide from it. You cant gloat in it's shadow. Ayahuasca shows us that we don't know anything, while at the same time there are likely true masters living off in the jungles of this world we will never meet. It is for me, one of the only true alchemical tools we have.

I am not suggesting anyone can just drink an unlimited amount and confront it with consciousness, and be ok. Read the above post about dosing "sweet spot". What you seem to be describing here is just a chaotic experience, or "too much" which I fully understand, but from a different perspective... one time I took too much mushrooms, twice my normal, fairly heavy dose that would be plenty for an 8 hour trip... and let's just say I had a similar experience and barely made it through that one... but it wasn't even really anything I can call pleasant, it was simply too much and not enjoyable. Too much of a good thing can turn into a bad thing.

Another thing that I don't know about, is whether or not the ayahuasca experience is the same as smoking pure DMT. I've never smoked pure DMT, I simply took aya and worked my way up on the dosing slowly and consciously over the course of about 3-4 sessions. The first one for me didn't work because I had alicia Spp. instead of caapi, the second one was the purging on the side described above, and the third one was simply perfect because I did everything consciously and learned from the first two and got my dosing down right. Now I know what's right for me. But I simply don't know if ayahuascan "journey" is the same as the pure DMT smoking "hyperspace" that you guys are referring to since I never smoked pure DMT.

Another thing, I'm not suggesting someone jump fully into the deep waters, I'm suggesting to start off small and work your way up. Start low, say 50g caapi and 50g chacruna, or 2 to 5g chaliponga (one or the other as admixture) and slowly work your way up over a couple of sessions to find just the right amount that gives the breakthrough and a full experience, but not too much that you end up losing consciousness. The essential thing is to remain conscious in the experience itself.

As far as preparation goes, I do have about 10 years of experience of prior drug use of all kinds, so mentally for me with my past experience it wasn't a huge issue, just consciously groping around in the dark. I also did not need a shaman, the invaluable advice on the Nexus was more than plenty Thumbs up The process itself is self-directed, but some people can certainly use the shamanic aid if they so choose. Thank you for sharing your experience tho, in a way I totally understand what you mean. Just sounds like it was a fairly traumatic experience from too high of a dose all at once.
 
brokenChild
#12 Posted : 10/21/2013 8:26:36 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 463
Joined: 15-Sep-2013
Last visit: 07-Jul-2014
Location: There, not here yet
jbark wrote:
With all due respect, I think putting on rose coloured glasses for this type of experience is a bit reckless. While I have also heard, and tend to believe (for the most part) the "no one has died from it" mantra , I am not so sure about the sanity side of things. It would not surprise me greatly if some have had post-ayahusca psychological difficulties, perhaps even extreme. Rare, certainly, but of sufficient note that to claim otherwise is dubious.
If everything is taken with full respect, including no medication interactions and diet ristrictions and full personal health and mental stability, and PROPER dosage, then there shouldn't be any significant issues.

jbark wrote:

There is much to be learned from these experiences, but to say there is nothing to fear, or that if you simply confront your fear you can control it, is something either far, far beyond my own personal abilities and experience and those of many here, or simply quite impossible and not really a desirable goal.


I'm not suggesting you CONTROL your fear, I'm suggesting you UNDERSTAND your fear. CONSCIOUSLY CONFRONT it. Those are the significant points. Conscious Understanding must be the underlying theme here, not control. You CANNOT control the process, it's self-directed, it's just a happening. But, you can be conscious in it, and confront the fear consciously instead of running away from it, only through direct conscious confrontation can you fully understand it. It's a natural part of life; a necessary aspect. This can only be done through direct experience.
jbark wrote:

I do like your write-up and see much value in this approach, but I think it is limited in its application. I think it is important to have intent while at once accepting that there is a good chance, if the dose is high enough (or if your mindset is conducive), that any attempt to control it, or direct or even be "conscious" of it, is beyond fruitless. Accept what comes.

Cheers,

JBArk

I'm glad you liked it, and I totally understand where you're coming from, take it for what it's worth I suppose. Thanks again Smile
 
jamie
#13 Posted : 10/21/2013 8:37:14 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growingSenior Member | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growing

Posts: 12340
Joined: 12-Nov-2008
Last visit: 02-Apr-2023
Location: pacific
I should probly state that the brew I drank that day consisted of abnormally potent vine(about 4x my comfortable dose of that vine) a couple grams of chaliponga, a few grams of mimosa, caapi leaves, mapacho..I think I threw some cats claw in.

In reguards to ayahuasca being like smoked DMT..that depends. Once you hit a certain level with the vine than it becomes something else entirely. The DMT aspect is still there but it's not the same. There is a level at which the vine itself alone has a carrier wave..DMT, 5meoDMT etc are harmonics of harmine, harmaline etc..and the carrier wave of the harmine and other beta carbolines is like a harmonic of the tryptamine carrier waves. This is how I understand it. When you take enough harmine to hear it's carrier wave(and it's loud) ayahuasca is something else altogether, just as DMT becomes something else once the wave becomes audible. You jump up an octave.

You can smoke harmalas, and then smoke DMT..or snuff the two of them and get similar results.

A lower dose of vine, like 50g or so of most vine with admixture is more similar to just DMT, but still shifted somewhat.

I have smoked larger doses of DMT though a couple times to intentionally bring myself back into the place I was in that day to try to recover some of the blocked memories, with some success. I allows me to re-experience aspects of the death/ascention process into that other place.

I prefer to either smoke or snuff DMT to get into that really far out deep death zone, as the onset is not so drawn out so the process is much smoother. With ayahuasca I just shoot for a visionary level. If I want to go deeper I smoke DMT at the peak of the brew, which sends you far far out for about 15-30 minutes.
Long live the unwoke.
 
corpus callosum
#14 Posted : 10/21/2013 8:47:23 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Medical DoctorModerator

Posts: 1952
Joined: 17-Apr-2010
Last visit: 23-Oct-2023
Location: somewhere west of here
brokenChild wrote:
Du57mi73 wrote:


Please dose safely and start off SMALL no matter how much you think you can handle.

Absolutely! I feel like everyone has a personal "sweet spot" when it comes to dosing. I.E. just the right amount to "break through" and have the fullness of the experience. Anything less than that, will not provide the full breakthrough, and anything more than that, can be chaotic and decoherent. So it's essential to slowly and consciously work one's way into this sweet zone; just feel it out for yourself. Thanks for sharing that by the way, is a very valid point.


My reading of this thread is that Jamies experience of an aya 'breakthrough' is achieving via the oral route an experience as out there but not the same as can be gained from breakthroughs via vaping freebase.Im not certain brokenChild alludes to quite the same thing as Im supposing that to mention being 'conscious' of all the aspects mentioned in the OP are just not at all realistic in the places Jamie refers to.

I baulk at the idea of getting that blasted with the oral route; the duration of such ventures terrifies me.

I am paranoid of my brain. It thinks all the time, even when I'm asleep. My thoughts assail me. Murderous lechers they are. Thought is the assassin of thought. Like a man stabbing himself with one hand while the other hand tries to stop the blade. Like an explosion that destroys the detonator. I am paranoid of my brain. It makes me unsettled and ill at ease. Makes me chase my tail, freezes my eyes and shuts me down. Watches me. Eats my head. It destroys me.

 
3rdI
#15 Posted : 10/21/2013 8:47:56 PM

veni, vidi, spici


Posts: 3642
Joined: 05-Aug-2011
Last visit: 22-Sep-2017
hello brokenChild,

can I just ask how much Ayahuasca have you drunk? I like that you want to help people out with this thread but it would be good to know how much mileage you have in these places.
INHALE, SURVIVE, ADAPT

it's all in your mind, but what's your mind???

fool of the year

 
brokenChild
#16 Posted : 10/21/2013 8:54:07 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 463
Joined: 15-Sep-2013
Last visit: 07-Jul-2014
Location: There, not here yet
3rdI wrote:
hello brokenChild,

can I just ask how much Ayahuasca have you drunk? I like that you want to help people out with this thread but it would be good to know how much mileage you have in these places.

A little over 2 pounds and 4 oz. of B. Caapi, and 30g chaliponga (my sweet spot is about 15 g chali per session, I actually used 100g but burned 70 of it in various ways and had to toss it out), 252g chacruna (all spread across about 5 different sessions) Also about 200g of Alicia Spp. which did absolutely nothing. (the 6th session, or my very first one)

Details inside;
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=49120

Mind you there were sessions where I ended up pouring out the remains of caapi and/or admixture because it would have been more than necessary. So I made "too much" and then drank my way to my sweet spot, and dumped whatever was leftover that I didn't use (tho in retrospect if I saved every little extra bit probably would have had enough for another session or two)

edit-252g chacruna, the first 100g was wasted on the session with alicia spp., and I used another 20g or so with the last batch I brewed, still have 80g of allegedly "hawaiian" chacruna in the bag for next brew, whenever I can get more caapi.
 
3rdI
#17 Posted : 10/21/2013 8:55:17 PM

veni, vidi, spici


Posts: 3642
Joined: 05-Aug-2011
Last visit: 22-Sep-2017
cheers
INHALE, SURVIVE, ADAPT

it's all in your mind, but what's your mind???

fool of the year

 
jamie
#18 Posted : 10/21/2013 8:56:09 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growingSenior Member | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growing

Posts: 12340
Joined: 12-Nov-2008
Last visit: 02-Apr-2023
Location: pacific
"If everything is taken with full respect, including no medication interactions and diet ristrictions and full personal health and mental stability, and PROPER dosage, then there shouldn't be any significant issues."

I understand that and agree with you. Ayahuasca is pretty safe and people don't really need to worry about it, because they are not usually shooting for the kind of brews I am talking about anyway. I do however think that our concept of a "proper dose" is not necessarily compatible with traditional models of ayahuasca use. Ayahuasca use for starters is pretty diverse in the amazon, but in many tribes doses of vine like I am referring to is the norm. McKenna even talked about this, and how when he was living in the amazon the ayahuasca there was extremely potent and very much unlike other DMT/ayahuasca experiences, due to the extremely large doses of vine these people add.

I honestly think that what some people in the west are doing might be more like modeling an oral version of a DMT snuff, with the minimal amount of harmalas and then a solid dose of DMT..which is fine. I really like the snuffs and I like brews like that just as much as other kinds of brews..they are easier to work with as the ataxia is not so present, you don't vomit much and the experience is shorter lived.

What they in the amazon might call a proper dose would be just really low doses of vine to them..and maybe too much DMT. The ratios are sort of switched.. though some of them will use large ammounts of both.

A brew like that really is very different. For one, it can go for over 12 hours, with tracers present for an entire day. You don't just peak for the normal hour or two and the physical ataxia is intimidating, to say the least. This to me is what the shamans call "mariacion".
Long live the unwoke.
 
brokenChild
#19 Posted : 10/21/2013 9:09:40 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 463
Joined: 15-Sep-2013
Last visit: 07-Jul-2014
Location: There, not here yet
Also if anyone has any doubts about the validity of this approach, feel free to try it and see for yoursef (doubt the crap out of it, by all means). There is really no other way. Just do so carefully, with full respect to the process, and as outlined in full detail above.

And thank you all for sharing your viewpoints, it helps to bring out a more clearer and total understanding of the whole experience Thumbs up

Also, please excuse the caps, it's simply there to emphasize the important points and distinctions, I'm just too lazy for bold and font color Razz
 
brokenChild
#20 Posted : 10/22/2013 12:16:13 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 463
Joined: 15-Sep-2013
Last visit: 07-Jul-2014
Location: There, not here yet
jamie wrote:


A brew like that really is very different. For one, it can go for over 12 hours, with tracers present for an entire day. You don't just peak for the normal hour or two and the physical ataxia is intimidating, to say the least. This to me is what the shamans call "mariacion".

I understand exactly what you mean in the entire post, but just for clarification what I refer to as the optimal "sweet spot" for me lasted about 5-8 hours of peak, and then maybe a few hours of come-down and diminishing effect, all in all about 10 hours or so before regaining just basic normal consciousness, and of course having to wait a considerable amount of time after that for the motor functions to return to full force (for things like driving, for example. In fact I would recommend someone take a full day off from operating any kind of heavy machinery for these sessions, the following day consciously assess your personal state to make sure that not only are you capable, but also very comfortable to proceed with normal mechanical functions of higher complexity (like driving, for example))

Thanks again brother, very insightful inputs.
 
12NEXT
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.089 seconds.