Apologies if this has been discussed before. If it has I haven't come across it.

It seems to me that there's some anecdotal evidence suggesting that a good deal of challenging DMT experiences (including my own) may share a common factor: soldiering on into a breakthrough after initially being denied.

I'm not saying that immediate breakthroughs can't be intense themselves. It just seems that when you force a breakthrough say, after your usual dose doesn't quite do it, you're much more likely to invoke the fury of the gods...

I'd be interested to hear what some of the more experienced guys here think. As for myself, I've resolved to try and respect the molecule even more and put down the pipe whether or not I break through on my regular dose.

Up through last year, I would probably have disagreed with you. For the past year, I have agreed with you, but for these past 2-3 weeks or so, I've started to have mixed feelings.

There is no doubt that some harrowing experiences can follow when one gets a bit greedy, without putting the pipe down. However, having said that, I had one of my most blissful and stunning breakthroughs last week when I tempted fate, even having had bared in mind that I was lucky enough to have gotten out of the last one on a high note, and that I really was pushing my luck. But I went for broke, and it paid off

So yeah, there's definitely a word of caution about forcing breakthroughs, but the main thing to take away from DMT is you just never know!

My view on all this is that if you didn't get where you were aiming to then there was a reason for this and you should put the pipe down and wait for another journey another time.

Sometimes I seem to be more tolerant to the spice than other times and other times I am too preoccupied to be able to get a useful experience whatever. Times when I have attempted to force things have either resulted in wasting a lot of spice taking ridiculous doses and never getting anywhere, or with me succeeding and getting myself so scattered that the experience was more of an arse kicking than anything else.

Hi Global,
Interestingly enough, I was talking about this a friend just the other day. This friend said the same thing, that the most beautiful break through he ever had was rather forced.

I am eternally grateful to have veteran travelers of hyperspace to bounce these thoughts off of.

I've been following this forum for close to 5 years now and from the numerous threads I've read(especially the older ones) the consensus is that sub-breakthrough experiences are harsher because there is still sense of self remaining which enables the unwanted feelings associated with egocentrism, while full breakthrough doses essentially remove the ego and leave you floating as pure awareness, no matter how intense the experience gets.

There's this also popular quote from T.McKenna: "Always take the 3rd hit" thats been brough up numerous times.

While I'm no authority on that because over the years I've perhaps came close to full breakthrough only once and rest have been medium-light experiences for me(yep I'm a puss ), I always though that medium sub-breakthrough was more than enough for me and never dared to dose more. It's just the general attitude from more experienced members here that I've read from.

Sometimes, sometimes not, and ditto for NOT forcing them. You really never can tell, we just don't understand it that much... yet.

I have tried to force a few breakthroughs only successful twice out of five memorable times.
I agree If i had an unlimited supply of spice i would fight to get through all the time but seeing as i don't, I just see myself forcing my way into hyperspace as a waste of spice.
When i have tried to force my way in and failed the most i ever got out of it was threshold visuals and they faded a lot faster than usual. I think it could be that doubt builds up but i have believed myself to be confident and still failed. I doubt the gates are just shut.
Did mckenna ever have breakthrough trouble?
Could it be the quality of our spice? Some people have faster building tolerances?

Pretty much this^
I find it's ok sometimes to go that extra bit if you feel your in the right mood for it, after my first hit I usually think "oh yeah that's dmt nothing to be afraid of"..(because I'm still tripping, if I leave it too long I won't go again). But other times defiantly not. For instance I have a lot of spice but I never "test" it or let's try a breakthrough on it.. That's not what it's about, it will kick your ass from my experience. It's almost like;

Me- "hey this batch of dmt looks good, I wonder if it smokes good and if it's strong"

DMT- " I'm dmt I'll show you how STRONG I can be.."

It's about intentions, if you are denied and your pissed of about it then best leave the spice than keep going with it, but if it gives you a glimps of something beautiful and you wish to know more than do it respectfully and be smart a about it.
I have a lot of group sessions where If i can't breakthrough while all my close friends are, I think it has something to do with me not the spice.. Meditate and move on..

Peace.s.m

I remember the first time I graced upon the spice. I tried a breakthrough the second time I tried it. I was not spiritual, had no real idea of what the experience was and lo and behold a big tribal mask appeared, it smiled at me, like a pat on the head. The next five or so minutes all I could hear was some sort of tribal drumming and chanting, but of a human nature. That of the amazon while I was being buried alive. It was pain. Pure pain, soooooo dark and ominous. All I could see was a sloshing of greyscale. I prayed to whatever it was that I was encountering; I will do whatever you want me to do, please take me to the universe, please stop this. Silence. Torment. Gray. Nothing. Pain. Deep. Buried. Dead. Earth.

I was not ready, that is what it felt like, that is what it was saying and that is what I still believe. NONE of my other spice adventures have been like that. I have done this magical thing more than any sort of medicine. This is something real. Something opened in me by forcing myself to see it. The more I did it the more open I became the more the experience gave to me. My adventures have been even more frightening yet much more meaningful, colorful, energetic, than that first one. The things I have seen since that first big blast have been immaculate. My life has been changed by spice, it has opened something up in my mind that I FULLY embrace. I love it and I still can not believe this is possible. In this technological age it seems this ancient plant is the future, a mirror of everything on every scale. Bless your silver cords, I love all of you Nexians and I love it all beyond recognition and comprehension.

I would like to add that as someone who experienced a lot of drugs, I still cannot believe the scale of indescribable nature of this thing and the amount of real change I have seen in a short time of doing probably the craziest thing I could never have imagined. Be ready. Do subs. Meditate furiously. Forcing it is not a good idea. Even if a person is immensely versed in this. It is terrifying / visually / auditory arresting on so many levels of real that a person never knew existed. This is the only bomb that needs to be dropped.

While that is true in many regards, there are many breakthroughs where the ego is left completely and lucidly intact. For instance, about 9 months ago I had the most intense experience of my life (40+/- mg in 1 big rapid inhalation) and my ego was left completely intact whilst out of my body completely GONE into this other realm for nearly 20 minutes. There has been many occasions where my ego was completely destroyed, and yes, your right when you say the egoic tendencies can alter the experience in weird/harrowing/scary ways. I've always meditated for about 25-30 minutes before jumping in. This has seemed to enable me (more times than not) to keep my ego right in place.

Much love guys n gals,

tat

And I agree whole-heartedly. What we're partaking in is surely something completely sacred and special of the highest order. Terrifyingly beautful novelty just billowing inside us. Too real, even for our own good.

Baby steps everyone, baby steps. You'll get 'there" sooner or later as long as you persist on this path....no need to rush, for 'it' will always be there..

[/quote]
for nearly 20 minutes.

tat[/quote]


Glad to see it is not just I. TMK used to talk about taking that third hit and coming back 6 minutes later. I wonder if he knew, if one loads forty mg and smokes that hard in one toke a person is not coming back for twenty.

Forcing a breakthrough with bigger doses can send you to a psychiatric ward. And you might need months to recover. But you can also experience the most blissful thing your soul has ever experienced in all of you existence.

I have a family. It's not just my life I'd be fucking with. If I can't break through on my usual dose I need to work on myself. Usually anxiety. It blocks me from hyperspace.

Don't get greedy. Greed is no good. Patience is a virtue.

I agree with tripper, I find that the resistance caused by anxiety stops breakthrough for me. Especially if I'm alone. If I have a sitter I'm a little more daring-take that extra hit. I have a family too and can't afford to be in a psych ward because of drugs.

That said, I tried to force not so long ago and regretted it, I was filled with fear about the spice. I stayed away for a long time and only vaped enough to see pretty colors. I started feeling confident again. I recently repeated over and over to myself to not open my eyes and to relax while hitting the pipe, vaped less than usual, while I was going in, kept reminding myself that everything was OK and to relax and had the most beautiful breakthrough complete with entities. Everything happened more slowly and I remembered more when I base lined.

My experience with trying to force the dmt experience. Quite painful, don't do it!

Great read obli.

I forced a breakthrough recently and had en extremely scary (hell like) experience.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=42155
my 1st bad trip ^^^

This has not put me off trying spice again but maybe if i don't breakthrough on my normal amount then il put the pipe down in future.

No need to put the pipe down. Just work on your issues and your normal dose will get you through again. Even less.

Funny, I have the opposite problem : I can't NOT breakthrough...
Initially, I was having trouble b/t, but that was before my 2 preferred devices : the Health Stone Glass pipe and of course the GVG.
Before that, I used to need 40mg or more to b/t, but since I got the technique down, I started to need less and less...
Today, with 20mg, I'm instantly taken to elf space.
So much that I don't smoke pure DMT anymore : too fucking freaky for me over there, and no way to have just a mild sub-b/t experience by vaping spice for me... I've broken through with 17mg and 15mg is a treshold (below that, the experience is meaningless, just a few physical symptoms).

All in all, forcing a breakthrough doesn't seem like a good idea to me...
One better get his technique down and go with the flow, aka the path of less resistance...

If you can't breakthrough with your usual dose, it is YOU who are emitting resistance.
Learn to observe yourself.
Why are you resisting right now ?
Listen to your body, shut off your mind and just listen...
Only You have your own answers...
So... Trust yourself, put the pipe down and Observe...