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Delosperma cooperi Options
 
Wax
#1 Posted : 6/27/2011 5:15:08 PM

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Any solid tek for these little guys? I've got some cuttings started so hopefully I can do somthing other than look at them Smile although they are pretty.
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BananaForeskin
#2 Posted : 6/27/2011 7:20:10 PM

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No teks yet that I know of... my patch isn't quite big enough yet for serious experimentation.
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Wax
#3 Posted : 6/27/2011 8:05:53 PM

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I saw somewhere phlux had some really good looking results but somthing happened and it was never completed.
'Little spider weaves a wispy web, stumblin' through the woods it catches to my head. She crawls behind my ear and whispers secrets. Dragonfly whiz by and sings now teach it.'
 
jamie
#4 Posted : 6/27/2011 9:03:50 PM

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those xtals phlux got looked sooooooo nice! I remember that thread..I remember he did not test them though..

I need to get some delosperma going..
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dreamer042
#5 Posted : 6/28/2011 3:33:21 PM

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Phlux got beautiful fumerate xtals that looked like roots or trees, really gorgeous

the reason it was never assayed is because when he tried to convert to freebase he ended up with nothing.
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Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

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AlbertKLloyd
#6 Posted : 8/25/2011 10:32:17 PM

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I have had some degree of success using this these plants, there seem to be some aspects worth mentioning.

1 the alkaloid values vary according to strain, specimen, season, time of day regarding harvest and environment.

2 multiple alkaloids are known from this genus and it may be more reasonable to expect mesembrine type alkaloids than tryptamines, though both have been found in this genus.

3 identification is troublesome and often plants are sold under the incorrect names and several hybrids exist, so one cannot easily take an epithet and the data correlated with it as definitive.

4 as of today there is not one single report of a positive bioassay of Delosperma indicating a recoverable content of tryptamines.

5 this genus has not been well explored and needs far more work to be confirmed or eliminated as a candidate for practical extractions of tryptamines.

Please try and look into this genus first hand if you can, it is very promising but there is no doubt that that it will also be a source of confusion.
 
PrimalWisdom
#7 Posted : 11/14/2011 12:02:02 PM

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endlessness mentioned to me in chat that you could to a STB, use naptha to pull and then salt with fumaric acid. I need to chat to endlessness a little more, but It seems like this could work quiet well. its just the fats that worry me, these succulents have a fair amount of oils/fats etc that you will want to get rid of first. But endlessness seemed to think a defat was not needed.

Peace

PW
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Ginkgo
#8 Posted : 11/14/2011 12:38:56 PM

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DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, NMT and the mesembrine-like alkaloids mesembrenone and 4’-O-demethyl-mesembrenol is known from Delosperma cooperi. Take note that the two latter functions as SSRIs, and should therefore never ever be combined with a MAOI, as serotonin syndrome may result, in worst case resulting in death. If you don't separate these alkaloids properly, you can't use this species in an Ayahuasca analog, in changa, or any other preparation containing MAOIs/RIMAs/harmala-alkaloids.

According to Trout's notes Delosperma cooperi seems to produce mainly 5-MeO-DMT during summer, while in late fall to winter it produces both DMT and 5-MeO-DMT.
 
PrimalWisdom
#9 Posted : 11/14/2011 12:40:30 PM

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Ginkgo wrote:
DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, NMT and the mesembrine-like alkaloids mesembrenone and 4’-O-demethyl-mesembrenol is known from this species. Take note that the two latter functions as SSRIs, and should therefore never ever be combined with a MAOI, as serotonin syndrome may result, in worst case resulting in death. If you don't separate these alkaloids properly, you can't use Delosperma cooperi with any form of harmala-alkaloids, such as an Ayahuasca analog or changa.

According to Trout's notes Delosperma cooperi seems to produce mainly 5-MeO-DMT during summer, while in late fall to winter it produces both DMT and 5-MeO-DMT.


Thanks for the info. Yeah I knew they had mesembrine in them, I'm mainly looking for a steady source of 5meo to vape, but the fact that it changes quite frequently is pretty cool.

Peace

PW

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birthing golden vibrations,
that echo through folds of space & time,
ferry my soul closer to God

 
AlbertKLloyd
#10 Posted : 11/24/2011 3:13:03 PM

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Ginkgo wrote:
DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, NMT and the mesembrine-like alkaloids mesembrenone and 4’-O-demethyl-mesembrenol is known from Delosperma cooperi. Take note that the two latter functions as SSRIs, and should therefore never ever be combined with a MAOI, as serotonin syndrome may result, in worst case resulting in death. If you don't separate these alkaloids properly, you can't use this species in an Ayahuasca analog, in changa, or any other preparation containing MAOIs/RIMAs/harmala-alkaloids.

According to Trout's notes Delosperma cooperi seems to produce mainly 5-MeO-DMT during summer, while in late fall to winter it produces both DMT and 5-MeO-DMT.

Actually Trout never identified DMT or NMT or 5-Meo-DMT, tests just indicated it, but there was no follow up so there are more questions than answers regarding this material.

The idea that the mesembrine alkaloids are SSRIs is theoretical, not something shown by any study, and there are alternative theories of their mode of action. They have been shown to be PDE4 inhibitors, which makes sense given their effects.

I have combined scelly with caapi for smoking in the past without problems, but i have read of unpleasant experiences where others combined scelly with cactus and 2CB, however the amount of the mesembrine alkaloids in delosperma seems rather low, so much so that many tests of this species come out as alkaloid negative.

I've done some rather large delosperma extractions and they were not productive in terms of tryptamines. I think others should try it, but after years of playing with a species in this genera is seems like a dead end to me.
 
Ginkgo
#11 Posted : 11/24/2011 4:00:49 PM

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Quote:

Actually Trout never identified DMT or NMT or 5-Meo-DMT, tests just indicated it, but there was no follow up so there are more questions than answers regarding this material.

I am sorry, but this is bullshit. Trout tested with "co-tlc with a known reference standard and color reactions with Ehrlich’s Reagent and/ or 0.1% Xanthydrol." That is about as sure as you can get.

Quote:

The idea that the mesembrine alkaloids are SSRIs is theoretical, not something shown by any study, and there are alternative theories of their mode of action. They have been shown to be PDE4 inhibitors, which makes sense given their effects.

This is also not true. You are correct that an article (Smith, Journal of Ethnopharmacology 2011, 133(1): 31-36) argues against the activity of mesembrine as an SSRI, but that study didn't check serotonin levels, only proteins associated with it.

That mesembrine is an SSRI is not theoretical. One patent describes the use of it as an SSRI (US patent 6,288,104), although that patent can not be seen as actual evidence. Furthermore, tests done by Alan Harvey in 2008 shows that mesembrine is an SSRI. The results are shown in an article (Gerickea & Viljoen, Journal of Ethnopharmacology 2008: 119, 653–663) that I have attached.

Here is a graph taken from that article, showing the inhibition of uptake of serotonin (5-HT) by mesembrine.


Quote:

I have combined scelly with caapi for smoking in the past without problems, but i have read of unpleasant experiences where others combined scelly with cactus and 2CB, however the amount of the mesembrine alkaloids in delosperma seems rather low, so much so that many tests of this species come out as alkaloid negative.

Did you smoke the caapi? That wouldn't inhibit MAO much. I have recently tried to combine Delosperma bosseranum, which contains mesembrine and I find it to be about as potent as kanna (Sceletium tortuosum, with both caapi and moclobemide, and when the dosages are low, it is actually kinda pleasant. But as soon as I took a high dose, I experienced increased heart rate, high body temperature and tendence to shivering, all signs of serotonin syndrome.

Quote:

I've done some rather large delosperma extractions and they were not productive in terms of tryptamines. I think others should try it, but after years of playing with a species in this genera is seems like a dead end to me.

You don't write any information at all, this is empty words. What species have you extracted from? What time of year was they harvested? How did you perform the extraction? What did the extraction yield? How did you test the final compounds?

Sorry if my tone is off, but that post was off too.
 
benzyme
#12 Posted : 11/24/2011 11:29:54 PM

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I wouldn't call TLC "as sure as you can get" Laughing
tlc isn't mass spec.

some of trout's data (quantitative in particular) is suspect
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
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Ginkgo
#13 Posted : 11/25/2011 12:03:22 AM

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Oh well, of course, but TLC with a reference standard + Ehrlich's reagent test and/or 0.1% xanthydrol, wouldn't that rule out most errors? What other substances in Delosperma could match the TLC standard of DMT, NMT and 5-MeO-DMT, having an indole core and/or match the color reaction to xanthydrol?
 
benzyme
#14 Posted : 11/25/2011 12:20:05 AM

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assuming it was a legitimate standard, it would be a decent indicator for the presence of a compound; I'd like to look at the actual data, got any refs on this?

I suspect this plant has relatively insignificant amounts compared to other plant sources mentioned, but it would be a cool experiment to do analysis on it nonetheless
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
jamie
#15 Posted : 11/25/2011 12:45:48 AM

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there was an old post somewhere way back from magic venom, and he said that he had extracted delosperma and the results when smoked were alot like DPT.
Long live the unwoke.
 
nen888
#16 Posted : 11/25/2011 3:25:40 AM
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Quote:
assuming it was a legitimate standard, it would be a decent indicator for the presence of a compound; I'd like to look at the actual data, got any refs on this?

..Ehrlich's may be a bit variable for tryptamine color differentiation, xanthydrol may be better..such spot checks really need to be verified and compared with actual reference samples (not published refs) during the experiment, as the color gradients vary with solvent/pH conditions..
Quote:
Phlux got beautiful fumerate xtals that looked like roots or trees, really gorgeous

the reason it was never assayed is because when he tried to convert to freebase he ended up with nothing.

..i once observed some mysterious indole smelling alkaloids were isolated from the common 'inactive' Acacia maidenii strain..at pH above 9 they became what appeared to be a volatile clear oil..in other words they 'vanished'..hypothesized fatty-acids at the time..they had some activity..
.
 
endlessness
#17 Posted : 11/25/2011 12:15:46 PM

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TLC with known standard + xanthydrol should be pretty good indication, but it also depends on a few factors.

For example, what eluent system was used? (there's no indication in trout's notes). Some eluent systems might not separate well some tryptamines from others. Once they are separated, Xanthydrol should give a pretty good diferentiation between, say, 5-MeO-DMT (blue) and DMT (purple/pink). But it is certainly possible that other tryptamines have similar Rfs in one or other eluent system, and that they react similarly with xanthydrol. Another thing is when a mixture of substances appear at a given height due to similar Rfs, this can also affect the color reaction. So thats why only mass spec would tell for sure.

Also another thing with TLC is quantity. Sure it may appear a spot on the given height and react and this may really be that wanted substance, but TLC/colorimetric reagents are very sensitive. Maybe there is DMT but 0.001% ? Then TLC would tell you its there but it still might not be viable for extraction. (Though if you had pure standards of the substance that is there on the plant, and would make certain number of known dilutions and run it parallel to compare, then you could have a crude estimation of quantity)

In any case as gingko said, seasonal/geographic differences might be very important here. One person might have had good or bad luck with some extract, but someone else can make it work. If anybody does test, let us know, and please, as gingko asked, write down the details (season, area, general conditions of harvest, drying/storage, extraction process, results)
 
AlbertKLloyd
#18 Posted : 1/4/2012 3:07:38 AM

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Quote:

I am sorry, but this is bullshit. Trout tested with "co-tlc with a known reference standard and color reactions with Ehrlich’s Reagent and/ or 0.1% Xanthydrol." That is about as sure as you can get.

I've actually discussed this with KT.

He suggests that his results indicate but do not identify. There is as of yet no GCMS work that indicates tryptamine content in these species so far as i know. There is at least one negative GCMS result, but a single result is rather inconclusive.

I know that the original indication of these compounds from Delosperma comes from unpublished research by a major pharm company many decades ago. This is why KT looked at them.

Quote:
You don't write any information at all, this is empty words. What species have you extracted from? What time of year was they harvested? How did you perform the extraction? What did the extraction yield? How did you test the final compounds?

I did write about my extractions on Delosperma species, here and at other places. I wrote up a lot of details, bioassays etc.

I'm not going to repeat it all here. But I did grow out a lot (more than one species), harvest it at different times of the year, ferment and not ferment it etc. I tried A/B, STB and ethanolic extracts. I focused upon D. cooperi. In one extraction of fall material I employed well over 10lbs of fresh material.

Using the exact same methods i confirmed Digitaria sanguinalis extract as producing results consistent with 5meo-dmt. However the Delosperma was a dead end in many ways, the yields were always low, the alkaloid result appeared to be mixed, it was scarcely active compared to other extractions of known tryptamine containing plants.

I also used Delosperma from 2 different climates zones 5 and 9. I tested at different times of the year for the same plants. I tried Delosperma i grew from seed. Delosperma i bought at a nursery etc. I've never heard of anyone else giving it so much effort as I did, and by all means i do not intent to discourage others from trying. Go for it, try it, extract it etc. Confirm my results or contraindicate them, whatever. Actually doing it totally beats arguing about it online.

Quote:

Did you smoke the caapi? That wouldn't inhibit MAO much. I have recently tried to combine Delosperma bosseranum, which contains mesembrine and I find it to be about as potent as kanna (Sceletium tortuosum, with both caapi and moclobemide, and when the dosages are low, it is actually kinda pleasant. But as soon as I took a high dose, I experienced increased heart rate, high body temperature and tendence to shivering, all signs of serotonin syndrome.

Do you know of any chemical work on D. bosseranum? Hordenine is common in these plants and a high dose of that with caapi or moclobemide could result in the symptoms you describe.

How do you know that smoking caapi does not inhibit MAO much? That sounds speculative.


You seem to know your stuff, so you have likely read this book:
A study of Mesembryanthemaceae alkaloids.
Gaffney, Candice Delphine
https://ujdigispace.uj.ac.za/handle/10210/349
It is interesting and related to the topic.

here is one of my extraction threads:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=24882

Here is a paper related to the topic:
http://www.thesceletium.com/study2.pdf
Quote:
Using this approach, the seven species of the genus
Delosperma, which were examined showed neglibible
or non-dectectable levels of the mesembrine alkaloids;a notable exception being Delosperma minimum which contained 15% of the level of 4'-O-demethylmesembrenol seen in Sceletium (Table 1). One striking characteristic in chromatograms of this genus was the
recurring peaks with retention times of 7.2, 8.1, 8.7 and
9.2 min


I've asked before if someone can provide information about what could have manifested at these retention times. The 8.7 mark is interesting as that whatever it is Lampranthus aureus contains a lot of it. This chemical was also found in Delosperma cooperi, in this study as the highest peak, though in a concentration 10 times less than that found in Lampranthus aureus.

Keep in mind that Shulgin went out and bought a plant labeled D. cooperi and tested it using GCMS and detected no DMT.

It would be nice for someone to do an extraction on this genus with a clearly positive result. Speculating that someone will however won't get it done, and claiming that Trout identified DMT in the plant doesn't get it done either. I've been trying to verify DMT in these plants for years and got nothing, but my first extraction with Digitaria was a total success. I'll just do what i have been doing though, i'll continue to experiment and I'll post my results (and discuss them with Trout) and I'll share my opinion and conclusion and so far Delosperma has been a dead end, with the exception of being beautiful to grow.


The idea that mesemb alkaloids are proven SSRI is new to me.
So what species of mammal was that in?
Was it in-vivo or in-vitro?
 
jamie
#19 Posted : 1/24/2013 5:22:18 AM

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"Using the exact same methods i confirmed Digitaria sanguinalis extract as producing results consistent with 5meo-dmt"

..Uhh yeah way to dig up an old thread I know Smile ..but can you elaborate on that? How much material did you use, what tek and how was the bioassay? I never really looked into this species before but a 5meoDMT source would be really great. Thanks.
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AlbertKLloyd
#20 Posted : 1/26/2013 4:27:22 PM

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I will return to the digitaria topic in time.

For now I have some news about Delosperma, likely cooperi, but I am not a specialist in these plants and there is some confusion.

The material that was not productive has become more promising. Let me explain, when I extracted and world with this species before I had used growth that was a few months to a year old... The other day I saw that some of these plants, now a couple of years old had a lot of purple colors in the plant and so I checked Trout's data on times and saw that winter wasn't a bad time to look at this, and I had never workd with material like stems that were a few seasons old and harvested in winter... So why not?

So I used my newer methods:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=39220

The resulting delosperma extract looks rather promising and has an interesting odor. I have yet to taste it... When I do I will report on it.


As for Digitaria... I am not done working with that and will return to the topic later.
 
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