..yeah phyllode's a giggler..

i want to go over a bit of early acacia research to show how we can all learn from our mistakes, and more importantly teach others better ways..the very first attempts at A. maidenii took thin bark strips, but it was soon noted that this affected tree growth, and better practices such as branch/phyllodes, as well as growing regimes, have since been established..people who would sell something from the wild they didn't grow..there is no adequate emoji to convey the disgust at this level of infamy..amputation would not be too harsh...people can learn from mistakes, these people have instead capitalised at the expense of the trees and the environment

1991 it is rumoured a german visitor with chemistry background drank a small brew of A. phlebophylla and P. harmala..this remains unconfirmed, and they have never re-appeared..
1992 JG wrote: "Some research of old botany books suggested a nearby location, and to my surprise I found many hundred of the trees growing along creek gullys in a nearby national park. I took about half a kilo of vertical strips from a number of trees, trying to cause as little as possible permanent damage." ,,now this was a genuine scientific experiment being conducted for the first time by a chemistry phd student..a marvel for the entheogenic community!..the info is put on an internet bulletin board..
A fellow uni student 'E' is concerned at the national park aspect, so a further sample of bark is taken in a similar fashion from roadside plants in order to conduct a follow-up....however, the results weren't so good for the plant community!..within a year it was obvious that the trees were suffering..there was die-back of phyllodes, even whole branches..trees became sick and died prematurely..! natural fallen branches are seen as a friendlier solution
1993-4 Various incl the late-'G' pioneer the pruning of smaller branches as a technique..highway and private property populations sourced..seed sprouted..already it is realised that wild harvesting cannot be done and they need to be grown fast!
1996-7 ..the first seed grown A. maidenii and A. maidenii x obtusifolias are successfully tested and bioassayed..the phyllodes come out at 0.3-0.7%..it is hypothesised that good nitrogen levels and microbial activity contribute to alkaloid richness rather than age..great news! but already there are signs of massive vertical bark damage done by unknown assailants in national parks and sacred sites..and ludicrous greed..and ignorance..the fight and struggle to protect acacias begins..
2001-2004 ..by now some people think it's perfectly ok to chop down entire large old trees because 'it's good for humanity!' ..awareness begins to grow in the community about the issue..

information on the internet also takes a lot of responsibility for some of this..or rather, incomplete or irresponsible information..together we make the language of the future..let's dream in a bright one..a leafy one..! and a fair one..
.

..now, this isn't anything NEW..but it's worth going over again..

look after plants, they look after Us..
.

Hey Acacian I love the new name
I understand what you mean about a reference book of acacia, in winter I have endless amounts of books to guide my mushrooms hunts,showing photographic images of diffrent kinds for quick reference,where's the acacia flip book!? who knows..you might be the one to make that book one day for now you have a camera and us!
And yes it took a while to find a floribunda that had a decent amount of alk but It's worth it. I think it can change with population and season greatly just like maidenii and obutsi. The tree that provided me was quite large and spread out quite large. Thin soft and very long phyllodes. The plant looked like it had been flowering before spring,The flowers were more white than yellow and rod shaped. A very slow a/b was performed. I will test again in a few months to compare results on seasons.
I hope this helps.
And I can't wait to here about the black wattle results. All the best!

And thanks nen I'm glad to see it all comeing together with new information
Spicemind

Although not a book [ I too prefer books ] tha Atlas of Living Australia is a really cool resouce . ... [ www.ala.org.au ]

Specifically, I want to know how quickly alkaloid content would degrade in dropped trees, limbs and phyllodes?

Thanks!--ooOoo--[ quote ]


I also have wondered about this ; and in such cases perhaps using solvents other than naptha in case the alkaloids have become n,n oxides ? Any thoughts on this ?

I think I remember nen saying earlier in the thread that increased amounts of (BZZZT: EDIT - acid), in the initial cook is preferred for dry material; no direct here experience though.

From here

i'm wondering whether the pics I posted up of the suspected acacia mucronata are a hybrid of some kind. Not all, but some trees had slightly softer and larger phyllodes. the phyllodes grow even out of the thick branches, and the thicker the branch the longer and wider the phyllode growing out of it. also the phyllodes seem maybe too close together to be mucronata? The phyllodes I collected were from more the size of the bottom one.. i didn't grab anything off the tree in the first 3 photos as it was a young specimen. The specimen which I picked the phyllodes off were a few kilometres away from tree in the first three photos were slightly softer and less sharp

^..belated welcome to ooo0ooo btw..been a busy thread lately! i'm amazed you actually read it in one go! not even i've done that..
<..and acacian i think the last pic, and perhaps the 3rd,are the most promising..the first two look, from the more erect upward pointing phyllodes, and bright yellowness of the flowers to have some longifolia 'poss.var. low yield' characteristics..phyllode's photo earlier is a good image of the tested 'variety', which itself varies a bit....yeah, it's in need of a botanical revision ol' mucronata..! also, of some interest, recent genetic tests showed that A. maidenii and melanoxylon are very closely related (despite being in different sections, i.e different shaped flowers!)
..the synconicities and mysteries of acacias is endlessly deep and compelling..

…………………………………………………………….

..here is a little bit on both 5meoDMT in Acacias and Experiential..
see entry here on 5methoxyDMT in acacias..it's also an example of seasonal and/or individual variation..and of what just a bit of 5meo mixed with DMT can do..caution is always advised assaying unknown materials..in the past i was made aware of the following information:

1995 November..the extract of an acacia (sp 'O' ), of which two bioassay examples are provided below, was sent several sets of hands to an analytical lab in Poland..it was found to comprise of DMT & 5meo-DMT, with smaller amounts tryptamine, bufotenine and trace ß-carboline..
subjects in 50mg trials were probably getting around 15mg of 5meo..

subject A: "I placed approx. 40-50mg in a glass pipe, as pervious extractions had seemed milder and this would have been a standard dose. I sat on a rug with a candle. I began inhaling. Within what seemed like a matter of seconds I watched the light of the candle grow to astonishing intensity as thousands of eyes began to pour out of it. I don't even remember having time to exhale before I found my self banging the floor with my fist like the guy in Altered States to try and hold onto where I was, existence, Me! My whole life flashed before my mind's eye in what seemed like moments. Particularly moments as a child I'd become interested in plants. And now all this had led to me dying here, now. My poor parents! I began to rapidly dissolve, and spiral upwards as energy. Probably 30 seconds after inhaling. I sped with no control past elves and entities, through colour levels. I had no choice but to let go and surrender! This was It! Death. I broke through into a vast void, ahead of me a giant gold light. 'Brighter than a thousand suns'. I was now like a little drop of moving mercury. The light drew me towards it like an Irresistible Force. I prepared to merge like a drop returning to the ocean. I had left behind all thoughts of Earth. I went into the light. At that point I only remember a split second before I had the ultimate freak out and blacked out and can't remember any more. Like 'Oh my g..!' …[a very deep description follows now edited for brevity]… At some point I became consciously aware, rather than just Aware. Eventually I found myself 'falling' back into a physical reality. Into a body. I became aware that I was human. Even that it must be Earth 20th century. But I still had no idea whose body I was in, or how 'I' got here. A few minutes passed as a studied the room. I looked down an saw the pipe sitting on the rug and then it all came back to me! Oh my god! I will never fear death again, although I don't know that I need that level of experience much again, if ever."

subject B: '..was observed inhaling 50mg in one long, slow inhalation. For approx. 1 minute they sat calmly, eyes closed, looking serene. Then, suddenly, they began to violently shake, tremor and scream in terror. They began to thrash about the room. The main light switch was hit and they were seen to be going through some kind of struggle or wrestle with an unseen (to observers) giant entity. They are completely unaware of the room, or any attempt to communicate from observers. One of the two observers is terrified of the screams. Then suddenly, they become silent and still, like a limp corpse, eyes rolled back white. Not blinking. Silently I bend down with my ear over his mouth to check he is breathing, while the other observer takes his pulse. His breathing is slow and regular, pulse slow but fine. He remains in this coma like state for approximately 5 minutes. Then he spontaneously sits upright asking: "What happened? Where am I?" A minute or so later, after further silence, he suddenly says: "There's fucking 5 methoxy in this aussie shit! All I remember is being destroyed, shattered into an infinite number of particles which then had to gradually reassemble themselves over the time of the whole universe." ..He was fairly jovial and in good health for the rest of the evening, and following day, although was reluctant to smoke acacia extracts that had not been GCMS tested from then on.'

..the section edited out of subject A's report will be written up one day..but, nice to use your imagination first..
also "..subject B was advised to have a smaller amount, but insisted on 50mg..perhaps a bit macho.."

..in contrast to such extracts, those with a large proportion of NMT are slightly 'milder' at normal doses (30mg) but have an extra healing and spatial quality at larger doses..

also, 5meo is an MAO inhibitor when smoked ..there have been reports of vomiting on such extracts, and of bad reactions with foods when smoking 5meo..also, it is considered potentially dangerous in oral combination with MAOIs like harmalas..can certainly lead to 'overdoses' and black-outs..it's own MAOI effect may be in part responsible for this..very low doses of such combinations have been reported as ok..but, as i said elsewhere, i think 5meoDMT is best suited to the 'physically fit and spiritual'..

some Trees demand respect..
.
@

hmmmm.. perhaps its a camera issue.. because the 2nd last photo is actually of the same plants as the first two. I really need a better camera for identification I think.. my friends iphone isn't the best. I am still awaiting any plant in the area with that pure white flower rod.. seems like a tryptamine traight

The last one's the one I'd look at. The bright yellow ones just don't look like the kind of medicine you're in search of Acacian. From my flori experience that is.

ok thanks phyllode fortunately the phyllodes I gathered were from the same type as the bottom photo... some were from that tree, others from one very close nearby which was the same essentially... grew bit more outwards

Acacian, the mucronata form with more yellow flowers, though, does have red tipped new-growth, another good sign for the object of your quest. The A, mucronata subsp. longifolia description says: Flowers 1–3 cm long, pale yellow. bark smooth or finely fissured, grey-brown; branchlets angled or flattened towards apices, finely appressed-hairy. It's good to ask nurseries and seed suppliers for advice.
And there are lots of kinds of acuminata and obtusifolia with yellow flowers And lots of interesting contents..
#818 nen888 wrote:
I interpret that to mean that white is perhaps highly likely, pale yellow likely, and yellow to bright yellow maybe 50:50 odds. I'm guessing though. I like Seldom's quick sniff n test idea. Saves a lot of the blood, sweat and tears you've been through in the name of knowledge Acacian! Though, it's made for a compelling read. ha,ha
In the case of A. longifolia and sophorae, from ye old bush walking days, it seemed like prostrate, ground sprawling plants didn't have what was sought but the more tree-stature inland forms did. Get's confusing!
When you got a good one fertilise some seed. And maybe if they All got the right Rhyzobiums they'd make the molecule?

Major Tom, I was also curious about N-oxide. Nen sed to me in PM recently:
I think it was said somewhere here that naphtha is more selective for dmt. I prefer broad spectrum solvents. I don't mind a bit of the waxexotica.
And SpiceMind. Interesting volume you chose of Flora of Australia indeed!

The 1st pic is from a German seed/plant supplier, and the 2nd shows the typical habit. Hope that helps. When nen's away the acacia-heads play..

Hi Guys,
I am looking to buy a few advanced Floribundas for sustainable use at home, hoping to pick a few phyllodes here and there for usage.
Which has me wondering, what is the regrowth rate for phyllodes with light picking?
Just a ballpark figure
Cheers

It's going to take about 6 months to a year to regrow mature phyllodes, but this is better than taking bark which does not grow back! If you prune young plants they send out more branches as they get bigger. In gardens it can be practical to prune trees every few years. Once a tree is large with many branches, you won't 'run out' for your own 'needs'.

Thanks for the info
I read Floribunda are one of the faster growing Acacia, so hopefully it is on the lesser side of the range.

Just wondering if anyone knows of any testing of Acacia Helicophylla? another plant I reckon has a very teacher vibe.. plus I suspect the double helix shaped phyllodes could maybe be indicating something. its confined to just a few areas of northern territory so doesn't seem like a viable source, though I am really interested whether it has medicinal uses

^..you know acacian, i've become so acacian that virtually every acacia has a 'teacher vibe' to me..just some are tryptamine-style instruction, other's aren't ..that species i know nothing of personally..the most common Northern Territory (also nth W.A. and Qld.) known dmt species would be Acacia multisiliqua [reported by 'JJ' 2011]..
it is a fast growing but fairly short lived species (as opposed to acuminata or obtusifolia which are slow growing and long lived) ..it is closely related to A. simsii and A. complanata (Tetrahydroharman)
it may be variable..

..also, as you dug it up a few pages back acacian, thanks, i've attached some images of
Acacia leprosa 'Scarlet Blaze', the aforementioned red-flowered acacia..normally it has bright yellow flowers..
from Plants Management Australia:

and ps. i meant phyllode's pic of floribunda before..reminds me of the tested mucronata..
below: 3 of A. multisiliqua and 2 of Scarlet Blaze..

Boy do I want to test that plant!
In the wikipedia list of Acacias known to contain alkaloids it puts A. leprosa in a list of 'little or no alkaloids'. The reference given for this claim is R. Hegnauer, but I just looked through that and can't see a mention! Besides that, Scarlet Blaze comes from a cutting of a single tree, so I very much doubt a red leprosa has ever been tested full stop.

I noticed in Trout's list of acacias 'suspected' to contain tryptamines (on page 18, thanks Nen)
included Acacia montis-usti, which turns out to be a very rare and threatend species found only in Namibia.
Nen, do you, or does anyone know why Trout placed this species on the list? Found some images.

..interesting Meddling Monk..i'll look into it..i know a little about a few others on that list, will add more when i get time, but if you're going to the mother land then i throw in A. giraffe, of which i've seen strong evidence, and had 2 reports..while we're branching out into species worthy of investigation, i would suggest a very common Mexican species..
Vachellia campechiana f. campechiana synon. Acacia campechiana synon Mimosa cohliacantha (Humb. & Bonpl. ex Willd.) see below..
found on "dry to moist sites from sea level to about 1800 m in western and southern Mexico."
..it's believed to hybridise with Acacia macracantha (which extends to Sth.America and according to Polish researchers contains tryptamines)..however, it may be an example of the 'plant-medicine' aspect of acacias other than tryptamines..key description: "Twigs, petioles, rachises and peduncles glabrous to lightly puberulent. Leaflet margins glabrous to lightly ciliate. Calyx lobes, corolla lobes, floral bracts and inflorescence receptacle glabrous to lightly puberulent." ..it has stipules (look halfway between thorns and small phyllodes on the stems)
..says spanish wikipedia:
..previously known only from the African legumes Acacia sieberiana var. woodii and Acacia hebeclada, and the american A. constricta [Acacipetalin in Acacia constricta from north America David Seigler 2007]
..it is a type of glycoside..while animal grazing studies describe it as 'toxic' it has known biomedical and traditional use..the answer may lie in what i mentioned elsewhere: ..despite warnings about cyanogenic glycosides, HCN is destroyed by boiling or drying of plant material [see also the comment by CSIRO's J. Culvenor under A. redolens here]..V. campechiana is also used as an effective anti-malarial treatment..one study found in the flowers and leaves:
[The Antibacterial Metabolites and Proacacipetalin from
Acacia cochliacantha J. Jesús Manríquez-Torres,1 Armida Zúñiga-Estrada,1* Manuel González-Ledesma,2 J. Martín Torres-Valencia1*]
apigenin and quercectin are flavonoids with strong MAOI activity, again see passifloras thread..

heading further north to the Sonora Desert of Arizona we have Acacia cohliacantha..now, whether this is synonymous with V. campechiana is not clear, it may be a rare arizonan species..
— Mark A. Dimmitt, A Natural History of the Sonoran Desert (ASDM Press, 2000)
..but, of further nitrogen based interest, a recent bio-med paper apparently found tryptamines of some kind..will report back when i learn more...research only..
.......................................


..on the pm phyllode quoted: if you go through endlessness's Acacia Analysis Thread, you'll see the oxide is rare, and trace when found..some of these tests were on material around 6 months or more old, and then stored for 7 or more years..i'm still not sure i've ever encountered much of the true oxide..it seems to have mainly been in instances where material was left basic for periods longer than day, or when massively over basified..tastes terrible! ..it's been suggested STB on plants can create the oxide..also, the often suggested Skatole was only found in very small traces in Acacia confusa..no other acacia tested or extract contained any skittle, hence it is not responsible for the 'dmt' smell..

and re your comment to SpiceMind, Caesalpinnieae in australia..yeah, really interesting!

below A. campechiana=V. campechiana in Mexico, Acacipetalin, and A. cohliacantha which looks distinct in Arizona, plus a Sonoran Desert Owl in a desert acacia..

Yes thanks Nen, acacias as medicinal plants is a big field. And an important one.

One last middle-eastern point. While I find the original Moses and DMT essay by Benny Shanon [http://www.psychointegrator.com/down/biblical_entheogens.pdf] a little simplistic and hastily put together, here's what he says about acacia in Hebrew tradition:

The essay as I said leaves a bit to be desired in terms of comprehensive study, but at least it got some Israelis, and later me, successfully bioassaying acacias from the area. Peace guys!

Here's another one worth looking at, שיטה סלילנית שיטיים Acacia raddiana

phyllode wrote: ..good one phyllode !

..as mentioned in the thread Acacias are also sacred in Islamic traditions, and pre-islamic. That's one thing the three religions of 'the book' agree on..the Acacia!
being not a uniform singular concept, arguments have raged in the islamic world for a long time over the 'worship' of trees, practices which pre-dated the prophet, and were more feminine in nature often..
in the excellent thread The quran and the clear light of the void...
corpus callosum wrote:
..from the Quran:
from go-makkah.com
..

..now here's one of my favourites, Allah be praised! :http://www.northernway.org/presentations/godwife/17.html
[see image attached below] on Islamic Goddesses

..peace unto all of you..

below:
Uzza, Allat and Menat & السنط شجرة acacia tree
The Cave of Ghar Thor
Acacia tortillis var. in the Sinai
and some Islamic Hyperspatial Geometric Art..
lastly if you want a laugh, from the surreal Indonesia see Vines form the name of Allah on a Acacia Tree islamic miracle picture..!