agreed, sands!

Thing is, humans will keep on with whatever they are doing untill they have no other choice than to stop, it's been this way, and will continue to be so. The only thing i can suggest is for people to make wise choices in their lives, and make the most of what they have. Not everyone is born into the good life, and some would say that is karma. Whatever, i truly believe that we should give thanks for what we have, take opportunities to make positive decisions, and 'leave the rest to god', sort of thing.

But ofcourse i agree with this. But that´s the point: we have the right to criticise society, and we SHOULD use that right. But that´s something else than saying 'all of society is bad','all bankers are greedy', 'everyone is a brainwashed zombie' etc.

When you criticise society, you´re not turning your back towards it. When all you do is saying that everyone is stupid (except yourself) you are. That´s a big difference.

A BIG difference.

In fact it's a night and day difference. Yes noticing something is wrong is part of waking up to a solution. However sitting around and criticizing without taking action is the equivalent of hitting the snooze button and going back to sleep.

^yes but many people dont have that luxury. What is some guy sitting in a jail cell for some victimless "crime" possibly going to be able to do to make a change? Or a single mom who has to work 2 jobs that pay nothing just to be able to feed and cloth her kids at walmart?

I just dont think that everyone is in the position to be able to act like you guys are saying..and this is why people feel helpless and stuck and turn their anger towards the system in general. Some people do have the luxury to stop working and go live at some protest site, or stop buying cloths at walmart, support fair trade and buy only organic food from local farmers etc..and the ones that can do that usually do.

My point here is that there are many people walking around that carry a large burden or sorrow...many people I think dont even know how to be positive because noone has ever given that to them..they are used to this rat race mentality where one person tries to climb over the other. Of course this is not everyones experience but there are people who have only been shown that and it is all they know. Noone like it, but they live with it and end up bitter about it. I can totally understand that.

I dont believe that most people have bad intentions. Most people I think mean well..whatever that means to them, which does not necessarily reflect reality all the time.

I think they SHOULD be taken for granted. What? I'm supposed to be GRATEFUL that I don't get killed because I say something others don't like? Sorry. That's just a bit too "grovelling" an attitude for me. Fuck 'em.

Society IS a reflection and an "emergence" of the attitudes of the people that make it up. So if all of a sudden it turns backwards and becomes excessively tribal (racist, in your example) that just means...that's what people have become.

The ONLY way to forestall that is to set an EXAMPLE of a better attitude yourself, and to offer your thoughts to others in a compelling way (which sometimes might include the idea that "society sucks" ). Either people will become enlightened by what you say, or they won't--but that's the extent of your control over the matter.

I'm glad that (at least first world societies) tend to not murder people for their ideas. If they did, they would be MURDEROUS BULLIES.

HOWEVER, societies which, for example, throw people in jail (and badly discriminate against them in other ways, too) because those people are EXPLORING THEIR MINDS through natural plant substances are nothing other than BULLIES also. It's nice they're no longer murderous bullies...but it's still the same attitude--just softened a bit.

People who want to use psychedelics are justified in saying "society sucks," and they are doing a SERVICE in saying "society sucks," by putting out the thought that prohibition of plant substances is FUNDAMENTALLY ABSURD, and is NOTHING but a bully expression of people who believe they have the right to tell others how to lead their lives, and even what should have MEANING for others.

That´s why i feel, having the oportunity to be positive, means being obliged to be so. Having the oportunity to do something, in this world, means to carry the obligation to do it.

Your signature says 'healed people heal people and hurt people hurt people'. Unfortunately i believe that to be very true. That means that being a 'healthy person' comes with a responsibility.

I agree with you polytrip. My only point was that it is not as easy as just thinking everyone else is in the same position as you or I.

^^^^ Very true. It's hard to see others' point of view. There's no telling what got someone to the point they're at, and often this causes conflict. This thread is a good example of that! But, it's been a very productive thread, I think.

Jamie, I apologize upfront, I broke your post apart because I really wanted to respond to a lot of parts of it...not just to take your words apart. Also apologize for the resulting wall of text...



He can start by transforming his mind so that when he gets out he can take an active role in society. Yes a lot of drug users are in jail, but the VAST majority of people in jail are not exactly the most up standing people you'd ever meet. Does that mean they deserve to be there? Of course not. But it does mean that damn near everyone can make a difference. Gandhi was in jail and he spread love and hope. You can make a difference anywhere you are.



Same thing, though she is actually free so she could go donate time at a food shelter. Take her kids hiking into the woods and clean up the trash while there (My dad used to do this with me as a child). She may be poor, but taking positive action starts with changing the underlying mind. Just being positive helps the world in a small way. A lot of small way's adds up. The truth is she could do almost anything other than focus on how bad things are that she is powerless to change...



All I'm saying is that everyone can chose in any moment to embrace positive qualities or negative qualities. Obviously a rich man has more means to effect greater change in society than a poor person, but then not alway's. When a human mind is empowered, completely empowered, it is almost unstoppable. Money or not, it's like the Universe opens up and creates a path for those that want to lead. Now the question in my mind is how the heck to we get people empowered like this? Heck I do I learn to stay empowered like this?



Personally I don't think sitting at a protest site is very often the best idea. The occupy movement, which I supported early on, failed to form into a group that would make active change. Many just wanted to over throw the system, but that is beyond short sited and so many people would get hurt in the process. Ultimately no one takes them serious and you know why? Because they are just sitting around protesting/critisizing. The members of the Occupy movement that really got it are the ones staying in school getting law degrees, they are the ones actively participating in local politics, etc. They are not the ones still occupying sites holding up signs. Protesting has it's place for sure. But effecting real change requires working the system.

How many people go to local town hall meetings? Costs nothing. How many run for office or ask to pitch in and help a person with good ideas get elected? Cost nothing...or minimal. BTW I do not run for office and I very seldom go to town hall meetings. I am not pointing fingers here, just offering an alternative view.



^This. This is the root of the problem. I agree wholeheartedly with Buddhism's take here. The individual has to change on the inside first. However, I part way's with many other meditators that never get off the mat and help in the world. This is why it is so vital to help people defocus on all that is wrong. God it is so easy in this world to focus on injustice because there is so much of it. But the more we focus on something the more we become it. These people stuck in the rat race need help the most and honestly a lot of these people have plenty of means, but the are to attached to the idea (even if unconscious) that they have to keep up with the Jones'. If they can learn to free their minds in even a small way like some here have done they would be trapped less in the rat race. Learning to simply desire less is a great way to reduce suffering and negativity. It's also a great way to bring about positive change in the world.

I do understand that there are also a lot of truly poor people that barely find food to live on. They need change on the inside more than anyone else.



I understand it as well, but I also understand that if I can convince them to not become jaded then not only do I help them not suffer, but ultimately I help the whole planet out a little bit more. BTW I am no saint here. I'm just taking the side of positive action. I won't pretend that I never sit around and bitch about things. I do, I just don't think it's the best use of my time and I try to do it less and less.



I also agree with you here. Most people feel utterly powerless, however they are not. We need to convince people that they are empowered to make positive change. Who say's only strong emotions like greed and fear can drive the world? Certainly not me.

Life is not easy for most of us. Rising up and taking part in the world around you is sincere hard work. Change NEVER comes from those that just want to hole up away from everyone else and be left alone....those people are honestly at the mercy of the system...and I fight those tendencies in myself often.

Effecting change is a big deal, but it can be done. People can learn to farm sustainably, they can learn to read instead of watching TV. They can learn to enjoy things like walks in the park with loved ones instead of etc, etc, etc, . We all have choices and our individual choices collectively add up to the world we live in.

Change one persons mind and convince him to do the same. Then change another's mind and another's. Pretty soon you get an exponential radius of positive thought and action emanating from a central locus. This is real karma. It happens in real time and it never stops happening. Watching the poll results in the USA right now is almost proof of that. Can people's opinions really change that fast? Yes.

I mean just think of the profundity, and I know you have Jamie, of how interconnected we all are. I mean seriously. We walk around, all most everyone on the planet, acting like we are some sort of individual with rights. Yet none of us could ever survive alone on the moon. We are nothing without the trees to provide clean air or the rivers to provide water or the soil to provide food. The trees are nothing with sun, rain, and soil. The chain of cause and effects leading up to this exact moment in time are almost infinite in number,...perhaps they are infinite in number? We are where we are right now because it's exactly where we as a living biomass have decided to be. For me it helps me check myself. I want change to...badly, but I'm 1 of 7 billion.

I need to reach out to more and more people to both share my views and to receive their views. Together we can all learn to live on this planet together, but at some point we literally have to start thinking less as individuals and more as a whole...and this has to start first and foremost with the people that can actually wrap their minds around the unity of this entangled web of living biomass called earth. We have to be willing to work for change and give up expectations of results. Just changing yourself is indeed changing the world and most certainly it changes the world from you POV massively.

This is why I chose to live a completely selfish life, putting myself first and foremost whilst still trying to be nice to others, but not concerning myself with the good and bad in society. I know I can't change the bad into good, except in my own life. I can't affect peoples free will, and my days are numbered, so not wasting my energy in anger over how bad society can be seems profitable to me. The only time you should look down your nose at someone is when a fool gets in your way, which unfortunately for us is a hell of a lot of people. It's difficult.

Maybe instead of seeing others like fools that get in your way, you could try to see them as learning opportunities, helping you on your way.

I guess this sums it all up nicely.

I see that most people want to make a good impact on the world. Maybe it would be possible to finally reach a better state of humanity in maybe just a few hundred years. The thing is that we don't have that much time left. In fact it is most likely far to late to change the course our society is heading.
We see an explosion in world population, ressource demand, energy need and an ever shrinking amount of ressources available to feed the hunger of modern society. Today 50% of the lands' ecosystems have already been destroyed or altered drastically and we have an extinction rate of up to 1000 times the natural. And we are excellerating both events. We are not just destroying our home, we wipe out most of the life that has evolved for such a long time to reach the diversity we see today. Sadly we have reached a peak and it is rapidly going down and it will take millions of years to come back to a state comparable to what it has been just a few hundred years ago.

It takes decades to centuries to abolish structures that severly hurt big parts of society itself (slavery, womens rights, childrens rights etc.). Does someone really think an argument like "Hey, has someone thought about how endless growing economies will work with limited ressources?" will be heard?

As soon as there is some elemental ressource missing or some important part of this insane industrial complex stops working a big collaps will come. I think there are several options what will result of such a collapse but there will be billions of deaths for sure and I don't see any possible outcome that will make intelligent, kind, caring and loving humans survive this and be in control afterwards instead of the most cruel and violent. The surviving people will not learn from previous mistakes. They build up and continue like nothing happend or do something stupid that will destroy whats left (e.g nuclear weapons will still be available).

I don't say that all people are stupid Zombies and I'm so much better than everyone else. I see the good in individual human beings but not in humanity as a whole and yes I am blaming society as it is today. Everyone including myself is part of a destructive path just by living, despite any good intentions and any effort to change society is, at this point, like trying to stop a falling airplane with umbrellas. I'm trying to help with my umbrella but I know it's just a freaking umbrella! If anyone can think of a path that leads to a better future then I would love to be convienced by it.

very well said jamie those words sent a familiar shiver down my spine... especially about the positivist attitude.

thanks for starting this thread polytrip.. has been probably the most interesting thread i've read in a while!

Discussing this topic has been very confronting for me, in a positive way. I realise that this is a very personal issue for me for basically two reasons.

1-I owe my life to modern science, cars and modern roads: when i was 6 i nearly died because my appendix blew itself up, infecting most of the surrounding organs. When i passed out i was quickly rushed to hospital and if i would have arrived there just a few minutes later than i did, i would have been dead right now. For more than a month, i had to lie in an intensive-care room, plugged through a bunch of tubes and wires, onto all kinds of machines. Had all the of this modern medical science and technology not been available, i also would have been dead right now.
So when people say 'back in the days when we used to live in trees and caves, everything was better, i would rather want to live in a primitive society', i tend to interpret that as 'i would rather want to live in a world where you would have been dead right now'. Maybe i shouldn´t take it that personal, but i just do.

2-My mother grew-up in a japanese concentrationcamp and after that had to witness the horrors of civil war. This makes me allergic to cultural relativism for the following reason: Japan has never appologised for it´s misbehaviour in the second world war, like germany did. At state visits from the japanese prime-minister or emperor, protests of survivors who want to see some apologies are always forbidden by western governments. This is always being justified with:'in asia, people have different cultural values and making apologies is seen as dishonorable by the people over there, and we have to respect that'.
You have to realise that the things japan has done in asia, are no less cruel than what the germans have done in europe, during the second world war. In japan, many people still deny the fact that japan has commited any war crimes. Many chinese and korean people still hate japan with all their hearts because of this.

I also am a bit allergic to people who claim that asians are more peace-loving, more spiritual and less materialistic than westerners. I know for a fact that in some places in indonesia during the civil war, so many people have been chopped to pieces (including childeren), that survivors (including my mother) literally had to wade through pools of blood. When you look into the history of japanese 'comfort girls', you´ll also find that asian people are no less materialistic or colonial than westerners.

So i take some things a bit more personal than i probably should. I think i need to work on those issues a little. Learn to see things from a more distant perspective.

and



I like it when the voices of wisdom maturity ring out!

Allot of useres may scroll past these because the solution is so short and simple.