We've Moved! Visit our NEW FORUM to join the latest discussions. This is an archive of our previous conversations...

You can find the login page for the old forum here.
CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
why add vinegar 3 times instead of all at once? Options
 
spinCycle
#1 Posted : 9/16/2012 8:27:03 PM

Life is Art is Life


Posts: 697
Joined: 11-Sep-2012
Last visit: 13-Apr-2016
Location: watching the wheels go round and round
SWIM has had good luck with the D-Limonene tek, but he is wondering something. After mixing with vinegar and separating it off the tek says to repeat the addition and separation of the vinegar 2 more times.

What is the advantage of adding the vinegar 3 different times rather than just using 3 times as much vinegar all at once? This seems to be pretty common with other teks too, so I am assuming there is some actual chemical advantage to using 3 mix/separations? Or can I be lazy and just add it all at once?
Images of broken light,
Which dance before me like a million eyes,
They call me on and on...

 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
d*l*b
#2 Posted : 9/16/2012 9:12:18 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1303
Joined: 12-Nov-2008
Last visit: 04-Aug-2023
Location: ...
A thread linked to in the FAQ covers this rather well—

Several Small Extractions are Better than One Big One
D × V × F > R
 
spinCycle
#3 Posted : 9/16/2012 11:42:06 PM

Life is Art is Life


Posts: 697
Joined: 11-Sep-2012
Last visit: 13-Apr-2016
Location: watching the wheels go round and round
Thanks. Smile
Images of broken light,
Which dance before me like a million eyes,
They call me on and on...

 
benzyme
#4 Posted : 9/17/2012 12:04:41 AM

analytical chemist

Moderator | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertExtreme Chemical expert | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertChemical expert | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertSenior Member | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expert

Posts: 7463
Joined: 21-May-2008
Last visit: 03-Mar-2024
Location: the lab
that FAQ is misleading, simply for the fact that it goes by a gravimetric basis
rather than protonation. realize that DMT has an amine that is fully protonated at around pH 5.2. assuming all cells are lysed, there's really no need to acidify multiple times, if the solution is at that pH, unless you like having a very salty solution.
multiple pulls is more relevant to the organic solvent used, not the aqueous phase.

also, that 1 g mhrb to 1 g NaOH implies a stoichiometric ratio. now we all know that mhrb isn't 100% DMT. my suggestion is prepare your 0.4 M NaOH before adding it. it is highly advisable to have a pH meter
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
endlessness
#5 Posted : 9/17/2012 12:08:22 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 14191
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 27-Mar-2024
Location: Jungle
Yeah but even if there's no cells in the story and you're talking about salting a non-polar solvent where in theory all the alkaloids are 'exposed', I know from experience there's ALWAYS alkaloids left behind in the non-polar and that multiple saltings with acidified water are necessary.
 
benzyme
#6 Posted : 9/17/2012 12:12:02 AM

analytical chemist

Moderator | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertExtreme Chemical expert | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertChemical expert | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertSenior Member | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expert

Posts: 7463
Joined: 21-May-2008
Last visit: 03-Mar-2024
Location: the lab
if you somehow know the concentration of the dmt in the organic phase, then you could
salt with an equimolar equivalent of acid.

but since ppl don't know what the conc. is, this is why multiple saltings are done.

it's no longer an issue of solubility, but stoichiometry... anions and cations.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
Yerba
#7 Posted : 9/17/2012 3:02:05 AM
DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 183
Joined: 22-Dec-2011
Last visit: 26-Dec-2013
I think there's more to it. The tek is written for people 'shaking milk jugs', not those with a proper magnetic stirring apparatus. Otherwise even without being precise with the stoichiometry, people could just add an excess of acid and accomplish the same result in one operation, right?
 
benzyme
#8 Posted : 9/17/2012 3:13:52 AM

analytical chemist

Moderator | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertExtreme Chemical expert | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertChemical expert | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertSenior Member | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expert

Posts: 7463
Joined: 21-May-2008
Last visit: 03-Mar-2024
Location: the lab
same result? no.
excess salts

again, this isn't a problem, per se, particularly if the next step is to basify.
and it has little to do with the container used, or stirring apparatus. it's solely a function of amine protonation. extra acid and/or base generally leads to less pure product,
but that's why people re-x
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.013 seconds.