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Poorly understood family of AYAHUASCA vines Options
 
endlessness
#101 Posted : 5/22/2012 3:59:03 PM

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Snozz, but I think probably the issue is that the botanists havent gone far into it, no? Because the caapi with the nodes is clearly different than the normal "flat" caapi, no? Also, while there are no varieties, if we're talking about other species altogether such as what is apparently being sold by kiwi, then it isn't necessarily incorrect to sell other varieties of "ayahuasca".

I think the problem is that vendor dont seem to interested to be open regarding their identification processes, where they get the plants from, etc... They only care about selling a product. If vendors had a picture of the plants they are selling alive, with flowers and other close up shots, even if they identify wrong, later experts could correct and the identification could be changed.

Kiwi at least has pictures of the plants and the flowers and all, in the different sections of the website, so botanists can take a look and give a more informed feedback. Also the fact that they sell (if its in stock) live plants as well as seeds from the plants helps too.
 

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SnozzleBerry
#102 Posted : 5/22/2012 5:35:23 PM

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endlessness wrote:
Snozz, but I think probably the issue is that the botanists havent gone far into it, no? Because the caapi with the nodes is clearly different than the normal "flat" caapi, no? Also, while there are no varieties, if we're talking about other species altogether such as what is apparently being sold by kiwi, then it isn't necessarily incorrect to sell other varieties of "ayahuasca".

Agreed. This is why I said "varieties of B. Caapi"...we have no clue what most vendors who are selling Red/Black ayahuasca are actually selling...is it B. muricata? Is it A. anisopetala? Is it a local varietal of B. caapi that produces a different colored brew?

The case of the two alleged caapi varieties that have never been described but to which differences of stem and physical shape have been attributed is not such a big issue. They have not been officially documented, but in looking at them (and recounting anecdotes) there are clear differences to these two plants which may both be varietals of B. caapi...but aside from kiwi (which refers to the "caupuri" as such) few vendors are making appropriate distinctions.

Kiwi lists the appropriate genus/species of the plants (or at least the presumed genus/species) and then notes that the local name is "griss ayahuasca" or "black ayahuasca" or "red ayahuasca". This is my point...a vendor who is selling "red" and "black" varieties of "caapi" has not only deviated from the two unofficially attributable varieties (caupuri and tukanaca) but is potentially, actually listing plants that are not caapi (i.e. B. muricata or A. anisopetala). It is impossible, from our end (short of testing/IDing and/or contacting the vendor) to determine what plants these really are, assuming that black and red ayahuasca are not (speaking generally and across the board, a large assumption based on admittedly lacking data) B. caapi.
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MelCat
#103 Posted : 5/22/2012 6:15:35 PM

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I just wanted to chime in real quick with some notes from the red aya I got from wss.

I brewed 100g of the vine and I can definitely see why they call it red aya. The brew was blood red during the entire cook process. It ended up being almost totally black once I got it reduced.

The vine is somewhat sweet and while brewing, it has a sweet solvent smell, very similar to dilute acetone.

There was some sap that had dried to the ends of the vine and it looked a bit like a NPS floating on the top of the brew. I filtered it through some cotton balls before the final reduction and allowed this cotton to dry. Once dry, I soaked the cotton in methanol to hopefully reclaim some of the sap. It's still soaking now.

I reduced the 100g brew down to 100ml but it was so thick that I had to use a bit of fresh water to rinse the extra residue from the pot and first collection jar. This brought the end brew to 120ml.

Night before last, I consumed approx 20ml of this just to test the waters. I didn't get any aya or harmala feelings from such a small dose but I did feel amazing the next day so there is something going on with it.
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rOm
#104 Posted : 5/22/2012 6:15:46 PM

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It looks botanist haven't got very far into it, or as some says in peru (some wholesale vendor) the vernacular is very often confusing.
I'm starting to think now, we have banisteriopsis caapi most of the time given the experiecne others have had with muricata or alicia, it looks quite different from the "strains" we've came across. That's the big problem speak with vernacular and retailor, who when have been given aya vines, just name them "banisteriopsis caapi, given the vernacular they might have got form the wholesale man.
It's all speculation, but hopefully the analysis and some botanist expertise would shed some light onto this.
So then we'll know more scientifically what we talking about (latin name is the bes tfor that, red, black, white aya can mean a couple of things now).
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jamie
#105 Posted : 5/22/2012 6:24:51 PM

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"Night before last, I consumed approx 20ml of this just to test the waters. I didn't get any aya or harmala feelings from such a small dose but I did feel amazing the next day so there is something going on with it."

Well that does not sound like muricata, and the cross section on the vine you have does look different from muricata. 20g of muricata is not really a low dose at all.
 
marypoppins
#106 Posted : 5/22/2012 8:48:31 PM

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the vendors selling versions of red and black b. caapi
were most likely not selling muricata and alicia

muricata and alicia are both fully active at 20 - 25 grams
previous caapi red and black were only active at 50 grams

 
BecometheOther
#107 Posted : 5/23/2012 11:10:37 PM

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"the peruvian vendor" we so lovingly refer to is having trouble shipping amounts in excess of 2kg.

I talked to him and the export laws are changing, and he is doing everything he needs to do to be able to legally export large quantaties, but for now he is only able to do orders of 1 kilogram.

He said soon he will be able to ship agian at bigger quantaties, and is also doing an overhaul of his website and inventory.

And last i heard he is out of the grey and caupuri (makes me sad because i never got any Sad, hopefully he offers it again, with other interesting vines.

There are other vendors like this too though, pm me for info.

Im loving everyones information, this thread is really coming along!
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marypoppins
#108 Posted : 5/24/2012 7:06:29 AM

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i'm not sure of all the postings rules here so i will be descreet

i get the highest quality medicines from peru picked by a curandero in the traditional way
plenty of alicia and muricat
and a liscence to export in bulk
truth is, he prefers only to sell 10 kilo and up
the real deal, pure, great vibes and great service
just PM me
or take a peek on the ayahuasca forum for further info
http://forums.ayahuasca....p;t=18417&start=150

 
endlessness
#109 Posted : 5/24/2012 11:30:05 PM

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And here comes an interesting possible twist to the story: I just did a TLC with the 4 caapis and it seems yellow (Banisteriopsis caapi) and red (Banisteriopsis muricata) have mostly harmine, some harmaline and possibly THH too, while black (Alicia anisopetala) and grey (Tetrapterys Methystica) do not seem to have harmalas at all! They have something else I dont know what it is in TLC, but they were sent to GC-MS. Usually beta carbolines shine distinctly under UV and whatever was there did not seem to really shine.

The final GC-MS results should come in two weeks, so lets be patient Very happy
 
jamie
#110 Posted : 5/24/2012 11:37:12 PM

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^ that is weird..I would bet there is harmalas in there and maybe they just wont show up like other known harmalas? At least it feels very much as if there is harmalas in the alicia vine..it is an unmistakable harmala experience.

Also how were the vines extracted? Could the actives in the black vine have been left out?
 
endlessness
#111 Posted : 5/24/2012 11:41:37 PM

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I extracted them the exact same way, just soaking in methanol, 8ml per 0.4g vine. Harmalas would for sure be soluble in it, mostly all known alkaloids should, methanol is very broad-range..

Maybe they are in very small quantity so it didnt show, and it's mainly something else? Or maybe its a completely different beta carboline? GC-MS should tell. Also I made brews of each of the 4 vines and reduced it, it is being kept in the freezer and I will consume it as well sometime. It will be analysed at some point too, see if maybe alkaloid content changed with the boiling or whatever.

Do you guys have UV? Can you compare the shine of brews?
 
jamie
#112 Posted : 5/24/2012 11:45:00 PM

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errr..wait. So it did not test positive for harmalas, but I guess it could be likely that the actives in this vine could be other beta-carbolines but not necessarily harmalas?

UV is something I really want to get for this kind of work..my brother might have one but I doubt it..If I can find one I check this out..
 
endlessness
#113 Posted : 5/24/2012 11:48:58 PM

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Well thats the thing, in general beta carbolines shine with UV AFAIK, and it didnt seem to shine, so maybe it's some beta carboline that doesnt shine under UV, or maybe its some completely other substances... Im very curious now, I also couldnt believe it and repeated the tests, and indeed it was so.
 
jamie
#114 Posted : 5/24/2012 11:56:12 PM

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could be a related tryptamine or something..like iboga alkaloids..not too hard to imagine that sort of chemistry taking place I guess..do iboga alkaloids glow with UV?
 
endlessness
#115 Posted : 5/24/2012 11:58:58 PM

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Tabernaemonthana sananho did not seem to shine under UV, but Ive never analysed iboga to know if it does.

But yeah it could be some tryptamine or something... Did not seem to be DMT nor 5-MeO-DMT.
 
marypoppins
#116 Posted : 5/25/2012 3:59:22 AM

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endlessness wrote:
And here comes an interesting possible twist to the story: I just did a TLC with the 4 caapis and it seems yellow (Banisteriopsis caapi) and red (Banisteriopsis muricata) have mostly harmine, some harmaline and possibly THH too, while black (Alicia anisopetala) and grey (Tetrapterys Methystica) do not seem to have harmalas at all! They have something else I dont know what it is in TLC, but they were sent to GC-MS. Usually beta carbolines shine distinctly under UV and whatever was there did not seem to really shine.

The final GC-MS results should come in two weeks, so lets be patient Very happy


Can you be more specific about the muricata ?
What were the similarities and differances to the yellow caapi ?
Where there more of certain alkaloids that is causing its higher potency ?

Very very interesting ?
 
jamie
#117 Posted : 5/25/2012 5:01:04 AM

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muricata is definatly more potent than caapi that is for sure..I wonder what it is as well that contributes to that?
 
SnozzleBerry
#118 Posted : 5/25/2012 1:16:20 PM

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A jar containing a reduced brew of 600ml of 250g of Alicia anisopetala was exposed to UV light with interesting results. I tried to take pictures, but even at 8mp, the camera was unable to capture the visual effects.

The liquid in the jar is practically jet-black.

Under UV light in a room that had another light on in it, it looked as though the brew glowed, but was near-impossible to say for certain. When a drop of liquid was placed on my finger, it did not fluoresce in the room that had light on it, but when a drop or two was placed on the mason jar lid in the same room, it did fluoresce (this could have been due to the white of the lid).

When it was exposed to UV light in a dark room, it glowed a weird brown/green, much darker and more muted than the brilliant glow of rue/caapi alkaloids in solution.

All in all, ime, it appears that a brew of A. anisopetala does fluoresce under UV light, but at a different wavelength than rue/caapi, perhaps reinforcing what endlessness's TLC showed; different alkaloids present.
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endlessness
#119 Posted : 5/25/2012 4:54:09 PM

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That is certainly very interesting!

Anybody else has UV light and black and another of these ayahuasca vines to compare?


marypoppins, as for the diferences between red and yellow, hard to say at this point. I did one TLC plate, and I could clearly see the harmine there, and both seemed to have a faint harmaline spot too. They seem to possibly have THH but it's too faint to be sure. I could repeat next week a more concentrated sample but anyways in 2 weeks we should have the GC-MS results.
 
BecometheOther
#120 Posted : 5/25/2012 10:55:34 PM

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Wow thanks endlessness and snozzle!

I told you guys wed find something interesting...

Time to test muricata leaves, and anisopetala leaves for dmt content!

Im betting that the muricata and alecia have harmalas ( because i too have had strong harmala experiences with the muricata and the alecia, which i originally confused 1 for the other, but they indeed both worked about the same for me!) , just maybe not the same ones! Very interesting

Great work guys!
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