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phalaris question Options
 
Parshvik Chintan
#1 Posted : 4/23/2012 1:00:00 AM

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i found this tek on erowid, and was wondering if it would work with limonene for the solvent and lime (CaOH) as the base?

from my experience with q21 dmt-acetate isn't soluble in limonene, so i don't see why it wouldn't work, but i thought i would double-check.

Quote:
Following extraction is relatively efficient.

You need acid "A" (Hydrochloride, vinegar or acetic acid), defatting
solution "B" (Methylene chloride, naphta, acetone), base "C" (Ammonium
hydroxide, lye), kettle, filter or cheesecloth, two containers, extraction
funnel [or turkey baster =)], pH meter or paper.

Find all this equipment, read and understand how the extraction works,
and find a place you can do it in. Harvest.

If you have fresh grass, place it in freezer overnight. Next morning
take it out, let it soften just a bit and place it in blender or juicer
or chopper and blow it to pieces. If you want to be thorough, you can
freeze it again after first chopping, and chop again next morning. This
is done to rupture the cells of the plant to free as much of the alkaloids
as possible.

Dried grass pulverizes (literally!) easily in blender. Dont open the lid
immediately, or some of your finest powder will float away.

Add small amounts of water to make the mush/powder pourable. This is
called Mixture. You can now begin.

[1] Converting alkaloids to salts.
Add acid ( "A" ) to the Mixture to bring the pH down to 5.
Add small amounts, check pH, add small etc. etc.
Alkaloids react with the acid and form salts. To ensure that large portion
of the alkaloids really do this, give the Mixture time and some heat (less
than 50 C); dont boil. Simmer it overnight with a lid on.

[2] Removing unwanted oils.
Place the Mixture in the funnel. Add 10% of the Mixtures volume of
defatting solvent ( "B" ). Shake. Shake. Shake. Let the Mixture and the
solvent separate; they will form two different layers, and oils and fats
will move to the solvent layer.
Separate solvent and Mixture layers, and throw away the solvent layer.
Mixture no longer has solvent-soluble oils or fats.

[3] Converting the alkaloid-salts to freebase-form.
Add base ( "C" ) to the Mixture to bring the pH up to 9.5.
Add small amounts, check pH, add small etc. etc.
Alkaloid-salts react with the base and convert into freebase-form, making
them non-water soluble, but soluble to your solvent ( "B" ).

[4] Removing the alkaloids from the Mixture.
This is similar to step 2.
Add 10% of the Mixtures volume of solvent ( "B" ). Shake. Shake. Shake hard.
Wait until the solvent and Mixture form different layers.
Separate solvent and mixture. Put the solvent (which now holds some
of the alkaloids) in some container to wait.

Repeat [4] three more times, and wait a week each time before separating
the solvent and the mixture.

[5] Preparing the alkaloids for smoking.
Place the solvents in some shallow container and allow to evaporate.
Do this in either very well ventilated space or outside. No smoking or
open fire near the solvent. This takes several days.
Solvent evaporates, leaving behind orange (color varies) substance, that
may be hard or gummy. Scrape this off the container. You now have extracted
DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, Bufotenine and some other alkaloids from the plants.


also is there any way i could do the math to find out the ratio of how much base/acid to material to get the ph down, rather than to measure the ph?
My wind instrument is the bong
CHANGA IN THE BONGA!
 

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Parshvik Chintan
#2 Posted : 5/5/2012 8:43:59 PM

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nobody knows?
My wind instrument is the bong
CHANGA IN THE BONGA!
 
endlessness
#3 Posted : 5/5/2012 10:50:20 PM

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I would skip defat, make pH at least 12 when basifying, and do room temp limo pulls and fumarate salting, like BLAB tek.

read my signature phalaris link and all the other links in that first post Smile
 
Parshvik Chintan
#4 Posted : 5/7/2012 5:45:51 PM

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endlessness wrote:
I would skip defat, make pH at least 12 when basifying, and do room temp limo pulls and fumarate salting, like BLAB tek.

read my signature phalaris link and all the other links in that first post Smile

the method used in q21's tek should work as well, yes?

also, why skip the defat?
My wind instrument is the bong
CHANGA IN THE BONGA!
 
endlessness
#5 Posted : 5/7/2012 7:39:12 PM

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Yes you can do the first part of q21, and follow the salting part from BLAB. You can skip defat because if you salt with fumarates, the fats stay in the solvent while only the alkaloids and few impurities precipitate
 
Parshvik Chintan
#6 Posted : 5/12/2012 6:47:46 AM

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endlessness wrote:
I would skip defat, make pH at least 12 when basifying, and do room temp limo pulls and fumarate salting, like BLAB tek.

read my signature phalaris link and all the other links in that first post Smile

is it possible to do it without fumarate salting? (i.e. defat with limo then base then pull) or would that risk extracting gramine as well?

also does it matter if i use FASA FASW or FASI, or are they interchangable?
My wind instrument is the bong
CHANGA IN THE BONGA!
 
Electric Kool-Aid
#7 Posted : 5/12/2012 7:11:30 AM

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So salting it out would give you only DMT? Or other impurities? Cuz there are some other things in that plant that are unwanted. nn-DMT to be exact.

There is a lot of this grass around if you look around marshlands or diches by the roads along the highways.
Done: THC - LSD - MESC - MDMA - Shrooms - DMT / Want:Hyperspace travel - World Peace
Respect, intention, meditation, inhalation, observation, analyzation, respect.
 
endlessness
#8 Posted : 5/12/2012 12:42:56 PM

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Parshvik Chintan, you would need to salt it somehow because limo doesnt evap clean nor freeze precipitates.

Its possible alkaloid content will be at least slightly difference using FASW or FASI/FASA, like in jungle spice's case (in my signature). FASW will probably have more mix of alkaloids, including any n-oxides present. But since this wasnt tried yet with phalaris, its hard to say beyond theory..

I do think, though, that the most important is that the limo pull is done with everything at room temperature, not warm/hot, otherwise it can pull more gramine/hordenine. It seems naphtha at room temp would also not really pull gramine so it could work just fine, at least thats what literature says but there's no published tests done on phalaris naphtha pulls yet.

Electric Kool-Aid, as mentioned, I think the pulling with limo or naphtha at room temperature is the best bet for more easily separating gramine/hordenine from tryptamines. But it might be some other beta carbolines or substituted tryptamines can come across. It depends what your plant has in the first place too, and we cannot know beforehand. The only wild phalaris in nexus tests so far has indeed shown quite a mix of alkaloids, but it was warm limo pulls..

Remember to please first test carefully in very small amounts and raise gradually. Also maybe look into marquis etc reagents and maybe even TLC if you want to be able to depend on phalaris in the long term and know what youre ingesting.
 
Parshvik Chintan
#9 Posted : 5/13/2012 4:17:59 AM

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endlessness wrote:
Parshvik Chintan, you would need to salt it somehow because limo doesnt evap clean nor freeze precipitates.

yeah, i was wondering if the q21q21 salting method (vinegar and water) would work?


endlessness wrote:
I do think, though, that the most important is that the limo pull is done with everything at room temperature, not warm/hot, otherwise it can pull more gramine/hordenine.

that sounds like there might some risk of gramine contamination.. is there some method to seperate it out just in case?
or is it not enough of a risk to worry about..

My wind instrument is the bong
CHANGA IN THE BONGA!
 
Electric Kool-Aid
#10 Posted : 5/13/2012 10:11:37 AM

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Thanks endless. Yup. This would be from the same area you did your previous test. Just a different time of year. Cheers!
Done: THC - LSD - MESC - MDMA - Shrooms - DMT / Want:Hyperspace travel - World Peace
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endlessness
#11 Posted : 5/13/2012 1:59:58 PM

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Parshvik Chintan wrote:
endlessness wrote:
Parshvik Chintan, you would need to salt it somehow because limo doesnt evap clean nor freeze precipitates.

yeah, i was wondering if the q21q21 salting method (vinegar and water) would work?


endlessness wrote:
I do think, though, that the most important is that the limo pull is done with everything at room temperature, not warm/hot, otherwise it can pull more gramine/hordenine.

that sounds like there might some risk of gramine contamination.. is there some method to seperate it out just in case?
or is it not enough of a risk to worry about..



yeah salting with vinegar is how I did the test that separated the gramine.. As for "risk", its kinda hard to access because Ive only done two tests, we would need more tests to say for sure how much we can separate gramine with limonene or naphtha. This should be done now in the next couple of months or so..

In the meanwhile, if I were you I would be sure to work with room temp limo or naphtha, even recrystallize the product if possible, and bioassay starting with small amounts. Is the phalaris wild or cultivated?
 
Electric Kool-Aid
#12 Posted : 5/13/2012 6:52:06 PM

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Endlessness - I am sure Jamie can gather some more up for future tests. I was going to go get some tonight. Just don't know how to store the stuff. Might need to dry it out. Don't want to store it in the freezer.
But yeah, more tests NEED to be done, because this stuff is free and grows in the masses
Done: THC - LSD - MESC - MDMA - Shrooms - DMT / Want:Hyperspace travel - World Peace
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Parshvik Chintan
#13 Posted : 5/13/2012 10:07:52 PM

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endlessness wrote:
its kinda hard to access because Ive only done two tests, we would need more tests to say for sure how much we can separate gramine with limonene or naphtha. This should be done now in the next couple of months or so

i've only just bought the plants about a week ago and they are rather small, so it will be a while before i even have enough harvest to extract, so i am in no rush Razz

endlessness wrote:
Is the phalaris wild or cultivated?

cultivated, sold at the local store as 'ribbon grass'.
do cultivated tend to have less gramine? or only if they are cultivated by those familiar with the gnosis of the plants?

Electric Kool-Aid wrote:
Don't want to store it in the freezer.

any reason for this? the leaves i have harvested so far as sitting in my freezer Surprised
My wind instrument is the bong
CHANGA IN THE BONGA!
 
Electric Kool-Aid
#14 Posted : 5/13/2012 10:59:55 PM

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Oh. The reason I don't want to store it is what do I tell me wife?
"Ummm grass clippings hun... Just feel like keeping them cold!"

Update: got a bunch of it tonight! Have to inspect it to see what I got.
Done: THC - LSD - MESC - MDMA - Shrooms - DMT / Want:Hyperspace travel - World Peace
Respect, intention, meditation, inhalation, observation, analyzation, respect.
 
Parshvik Chintan
#15 Posted : 5/18/2012 9:04:59 AM

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Electric Kool-Aid wrote:
Oh. The reason I don't want to store it is what do I tell me wife?
"Ummm grass clippings hun... Just feel like keeping them cold!"

"medicinal herbs for transcendental meditation." Razz
My wind instrument is the bong
CHANGA IN THE BONGA!
 
Vitalstatistix
#16 Posted : 5/18/2012 9:50:14 AM

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Parshvik Chintan wrote:
do cultivated tend to have less gramine?


Some cultivars have been specifically bred to be low alkaloid strains. Not to thwart the activities of folks like us but because here in Australia farmers got sick of their sheep getting Phalaris Staggers (it can kill sheep). Phalaris is the major perenial pasture grass for most of Australia.
Some of the original strains like "Australian" and "AQ-1" from Italy have reasonable alkaloid content but many of the newly bred cultivars like "Sirosa", "Sirolan" "Holdfast" and "Siroco" do not and have purposely had the alkaloids bred out of them.
IMO there are much, much better sources than phalaris.

The above is true for Phalaris aquatica. For P. arundinacea i do not know.
"You don‘t have a soul. You ARE a soul. You have a body." —C.W. Lewis
 
 
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