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Trying to improve Acacia information Options
 
endlessness
#401 Posted : 5/2/2012 12:38:34 PM

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Regarding harvesting. Are there any tips for more sustainable harvesting that can be shared here?

For example, some acacias phyllodes are active and with good percentage of alkaloids, cant they be harvested without harming the tree? Sometimes even if they fell off the tree they are still active, no?

What about small branches/twigs, can they be harvested sustainably?


Btw, thanks for mantaining this epic thread Smile
 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
nen888
#402 Posted : 5/2/2012 1:15:04 PM
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endlessness wrote:
Regarding harvesting. Are there any tips for more sustainable harvesting that can be shared here?

For example, some acacias phyllodes are active and with good percentage of alkaloids, cant they be harvested without harming the tree? Sometimes even if they fell off the tree they are still active, no?

What about small branches/twigs, can they be harvested sustainably?


Btw, thanks for mantaining this epic thread Smile

..'no worries' endlessness, as is often said over here..and who knows where this epic leads..!

re: sustainable harvesting:..yes, you're absolutely right about the phyllodes/twigs..the twigs in some of the better known species (e.g.floribunda) are the same %/content as the main bark..the phyllodes usually have a good percentage..in a few cases mentioned in the thread almost as high as the bark..
also, the branch/stem bark is the same as the main trunk bark, so pruning of individual branches is far less damaging longterm than touching the main trunk (which leads to leaf dieback/early death)
a strong, healthy main trunk allows branches/leaves to grow in more abundance..
..collecting of phyllodes (actually photosynthetic twig extensions technically) is a lot more sustainable as they can grow back much faster than bark
..growing experience (& the spirit of the plant) lead me use leaves of acacia as the preference..

and you're onto endlessness it about the fallen phyllodes..as i wrote on here
Quote:
..one or two notable female researchers of the acacia light have found that the recently naturally fallen leaves (incl. brown phyllodes) of prefered species (e.g. phlebophylla, floribunda etc. ) still contain good amounts of alkaloids (if there hasn't been heavy rainfall), and are even preferred in pharmahuasca beverages to fresh leaves..
this is surely the most plant-friendly method of wild (or cultivated) collection thanks ladies...Wink
..note also note on extraction issues in that post..

another factor is the location
..an eventually successful A. floribunda extraction by Vitalstatistix (https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/d...osts&t=26773&p=2)
i commented was an evironmentally 'model extraction', as it was from a tree grown in an urban situation, simply pruned (as is often required in such situations) ..many of the species in question grow as roadside plants or on private semi-forested land..
in much of the world some acacias of interest are found as introduced weeds..
.

very big thanks to all contributors to this thread..Smile onwards with the knowledge..
respect to all trees..
.
 
nen888
#403 Posted : 5/2/2012 1:58:53 PM
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..oh, and just to throw a whole new class of compound into the acacia research mix,

the stem bark of Acacia mellifera
..it was reported as containing DMT by Shulgin, but this has been questioned..however there are alkaloids of some kind in the plant..ethanol extracts tested strongly +ve for alkaloids and saponins [In vivo Screening of Antibacterial Activity of Acacia mellifera (BENTH) (Leguminosae) on Human Pathogenic Bacteria S. Lalitha et al. 2010] and another Kenyan test was alkaloid+ve [Rukunga el al 2004] (why they didn't find out what alkaloid i don't know, but this is often what happens in medicinal screening tests)
but then, instead of testing for alkaloids Mutai et al.2007 [in Lupane Triterpenoids from Acacia mellifera with Cytotoxic Activity, Molecules 2007, 12(5)]
found:
Quote:
Three new pentacyclic triterpenoids: 3-oxolupan-30-al, 3-oxolupan-30-al and 28-hydroxylupen-30-al-3-one , along with 3β-hydroxylupan-30-al , the latter previously described as a constituent of an epimeric mixture, were isolated from Acacia mellifera. In addition, the known metabolites 30-hydroxylup-20--en-3-one , 30-hydroxylup-20-en-3β-ol , atranorin, methyl 2,4-dihydroxy-3,6 dimethyl benzoate, sitosterol-3β-O-glucoside and linoleic acid were found in the analyzed plant species for the first time.
..the stem bark of A. mellifera is used in East African traditional medicine to treat pneunomina, malaria, syphilis, sterility and stomach ache..sounds like strong medicine! also especially liked by bees..and goats..

..to what extent triterpenoids are found in the acacia genus i cannot right now tell you..they haven't been looked for much yet..the research goes on..

but i'd sure like someone to run a simple A/B with some Ehrlich's reagent (or even just their nose) on
A. mellifera to guess the alkaloids
..native to the drier parts of South and East Africa, the Arabian peninsula and the Indian Ocean..
nen888 attached the following image(s):
A. mellifera pods:leaves.jpg (217kb) downloaded 800 time(s).
Acacia_mellifera_1.jpg (150kb) downloaded 796 time(s).
acacia-mellifera-flower-.jpg (99kb) downloaded 794 time(s).
 
austra
#404 Posted : 5/2/2012 2:03:14 PM
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This information with floribunda's twigs is very interesting nen. I was aware that branch bark was similar in content to main trunk bark but are you saying that the twigs/very small branches could be used core and all with similar concentration per weight?
This would certainly add another feather to the cap of sustainable harvesting.
 
nen888
#405 Posted : 5/2/2012 2:12:22 PM
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austra wrote:
This information with floribunda's twigs is very interesting nen. I was aware that branch bark was similar in content to main trunk bark but are you saying that the twigs/very small branches could be used core and all with similar concentration per weight?
This would certainly add another feather to the cap of sustainable harvesting.

..place that feather in that cap, austra Smile
A. floribunda small twigs have come in at around 0.4-0.5%, and obtusifolia small twigs 0.4-0.7%..leaves were about 0.3-0.4% both cases.. acuminata twigs are higher in content than the phyllodes, which are 0.8-1.2%..there of course could be some seasonal variation..
a friend 'M' obtained 0.7% (mainly DMT, a little NMT and ß-carboline) from the leaves of the Narrow Phyllode A. Maidenii (coastal) c2001..the bark was actually less..

..that there is no need to damage lots of bark is one of the great bits of news i've mentioned once or twice in the thread before, but it is such an important point i'm glad you asked so as to raise it again...
 
wira
#406 Posted : 5/2/2012 4:10:13 PM

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nen888 wrote:
..while seldom's picture may well be just ordinary baileyana, it's what appear to be the green pods (different shape) and the darker rather than silver foilage which caused me to suggest hybridization..i think there's a lot going on between australian bi-pinnates which make identification more confusing..


It's hard to tell much about the shape of the pods from that blurry photo, but I see a lot of baileyana and it's not unusual for the pods to be a bit contorted or curved sometimes. The colour of the foliage also looks normal to me. The silvery colour that's seen on the normal (not purpurea) variety is partly due to a glaucous surface layer that wears off a bit on older foliage further down the branch, revealing the darker greenish tones underneath.
 
Gowpen
#407 Posted : 5/4/2012 12:40:25 PM

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An update for my post regarding an as yet unidentified Acacia.
I have received a box of 12 Ehrlich Test kits from the UK ( to Australia).

They were opened by customs but let them through (so they should)

My extract test result showed a strong purple/dark lavender colour and is Possitive for indoles.
I have re-x twice but have only 50mg of nice clean product. I will extract some more as there is lots of fallen branches.

Im having doubts about immediately filtering the solids (ground bark) after the Vinegar bath... DO you think I might benefit from leaving the brew mixed with NaOH for a few days... Im going to try, and not so warm on the cook.....

If I might ask 'How' were nen's test material extracted. what Acid etc.... I wouldn't mind another tek than vinegar.... any ideas...
Gowpen attached the following image(s):
IMG_0466.JPG (2,989kb) downloaded 748 time(s).
IMG_0468.JPG (2,293kb) downloaded 740 time(s).
IMG_0465.JPG (2,661kb) downloaded 738 time(s).
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Spice Sailor
#408 Posted : 5/4/2012 10:16:47 PM

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Hey Growpen. Great news about your Ehrlich Tests arriving, customs not messing with them and that they appear to work!
Just out of curiosity did you use your initial "pulling" non-polar solvent ( shellite etc) to do your re-x or something else?

As for soaking in NaoH for a few days, the couple of times I've tried that it has resulted in a thick sludge that made polar and non-polar separations difficult. But this could of been the acacia I was using, only one way to find out. Give it crack then report back.

I would focus on getting the phyllodes or bark ground up to as fine as you can and having correct (though is personal preference) ph levels. To high or low Ph levels have been the difference between getting something sample-able from an extract vs nothing / tiny amounts.

Good luck. -spice sailor
 
Gowpen
#409 Posted : 5/5/2012 12:54:33 AM

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Thanks Spicesailor,..... A ph meter is my next quest... Yes shellite to re-x
The other BIG problem I seem to get is the melting issue when removed from the freezer. Nothing I can do stops this.

I let dry for 24 hours and yes there is sludge..or a VERY thin layer of flat crystal. I have looked very close with a magnifying glass. I now know (because of the test kit) there is something in my bark, and I listen to the radio to hear that there is yellow DMT everywhere here (apparently). So it must be my technique.. I will invest in a ph meter and have another go (or two).
I have tried STB and A/B. Any thoughts.

Ps. the test kits are great.
One can never cross the ocean without the Courage to lose sight of the shore
 
nen888
#410 Posted : 5/5/2012 4:24:45 AM
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..hey Growpen, on mobile so brief.. method in acacia analysis thread, all small amounts..the key to 'clean' is in patient filtering of fine particulate matter with multiple coffee filters or finer lab filters..can take many hours or days..
agree with Spice Sailor on NaOH..leaving in basic solution long time not good..
pH important..

..your tree looks like A. neurophylla or very close relative...
 
Seldom
#411 Posted : 5/5/2012 4:41:19 AM

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cultriformis section above weighs just under 1g, would probly make me cry and tarnish my soul to collect even 50x that with how blessed we are in Aus. also one way of encouraging preference for phyllodes could involve the anonymous emergence of a tek for their processing.. lex tek is even on scribd, doing 2kgs, possibly not the best introduction for people. phyllode tek could be a karmically beneficial enterprise..
 
nen888
#412 Posted : 5/5/2012 6:05:54 AM
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..an A/B, after grinding should be fine on phyllodes..see index for extraction basic method..preferable acids sulphuric or acetic..pH above 13 leads to less clean product..BTW, extracts which are orange or pale brown/green can still be 95% pure, the coloring is not harmful..many Mimosa voyagers like what they call 'Jim Jam'..

phyllodes are far easier to process in coffee grinder than bark which is tough, and defeats most such household gadgets..
.
 
Gowpen
#413 Posted : 5/5/2012 8:58:50 AM

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Have NO FEAR Nen, I am all about sustainability...

Guess my mission is the Acacia Phylode tek
One can never cross the ocean without the Courage to lose sight of the shore
 
nen888
#414 Posted : 5/7/2012 8:11:34 AM
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..^yeah cool Growpen, i doubt you not..
it's especially after growing them from seed that i became particularly sensitive to sustainability; also, pruning a branch here or there a year (which would cover a group of friends) is not such a big issue..it's the decimation caused by greedy dealers, as also mentioned by Chief Hobo Stank on p9, and Alienteaparty in Using the leaves of Acacia acuminata..they have ruined some natural spots for years to come..simply to make money..of course, as most of you know, the nexus is completely opposed to the sale of DMT..

re: phyllode tek..really the methods i describe elsewhere are quite simple..
it's like cooking or art..careful observation and practice teach a lot..
intuition, rather than exact measurements, often works better (the 'shamanic' approach)
1) grind phyllodes/small twigs in a coffee grinder or with mortar and pestle as fine as possible
2) soak overnight in mixture of ethanol/vodka/methylated spirits plus white vinegar and water
3) heat/boil liquid & plant material for approx 45 minutes..keep liquid..add fresh liquid and repeat X 2 (45 min boiling)
4) combine liquids and reduce volume by heating..at various stages here is when as much filtering as possible should be done..e.g. coffee filters (can be slow); reduce volume of liquid as much as possible, i.e until slightly thick..4B) defat x1 with NP solvent - optional
5) very slowly and carefully add casutic soda or pure ammonium until pH between 11-12.5
6) add equal amount of non polar solvent, and separate (optional wash with salty H20+NaOH)..evaporate slow

..all technical issues with emulsions etc are covered in nexus threads..

..but, you will generally only end up with 'clean' white or pale yellow crystals if the content of the plant was 95%plus dmt..dmt and nmt will co-crystalize together, but this can take much longer or may not solidify..if there are betacarbolines the product will almost always be browny red and have difficulty solidifiying..but such extracts are not as such 'un-clean', but more exotic, if you like..
.

 
Gowpen
#415 Posted : 5/9/2012 5:49:22 AM

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Thanks nen, I'v been going for ph 3 in vinegar and 13+ with the NaOH..... In the DMT handbook, it says stay with 4ph with the acid. I'v also bought some phosphoric acid in a hydro shop to try (DMT handbook again).... and I will stay under 12 this time with the NaOH

Acuminata Phylodes.... I only have 60gms, and 100gms twigs, so I will do two extracts using the same tek and report....

Wez gonna get there..... (thats the royal we, meaning me and Nexus)
Thanks again.
One can never cross the ocean without the Courage to lose sight of the shore
 
nen888
#416 Posted : 5/9/2012 6:01:23 AM
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..cool Growpen..fine manipulation of the pH also helps with emulsions and separation..
ethanol or methanol makes a big difference to yield and 'workability' of the solution..the salty H2O+NaOH washing of the NP solvents removes a lot of colour..note, though, that the kind of olive coloured putty extracted from one lot of phyllode (acacia analysis thread) is still mainly dmt, and quite usable, if harder to physically handle..
it is possible to get solid pale extracts from acuminata phyllode (more the narrow-leaf strain, the broad seems more exotic) ..also seen very 'clean' extracts from maidenii and floribunda phyllodes..all extracts sent for testing were from small amounts of material (less than 200mg alkaloid)
..also note A. neurophylla sometimes had a lot of harman (ß-carboline) in the phyllodes (branch bark more dmt),
but is quite variable..

so, best of luck Growpen..really looking forward to your results..(on behalf of all enthused nexians)
really cool about the Ehrlich's arriving too..Smile

ps. in the above linked acuminata leaves thread by Alienteaparty, the pic posted is not actually acuminata..
wrong picture or another serendipitous accidental discovery..?
nexus to Alienteaparty, do you read me..?
.

below, slightly blurry pic of A. neurophylla (which i think you have) in the wild..
nen888 attached the following image(s):
acacia_neurophylla.jpg (147kb) downloaded 1,028 time(s).
 
Gowpen
#417 Posted : 5/10/2012 12:09:20 AM

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Can’t wait till the flowering season (soon), I know so many possible’s to look for. This is so insanely helpful, to get this type of feedback. I know of DMT only through Nexus and have no social reference for it. I am ‘drawn’ to making DMT, like the opening guy of ‘Close Encounters of the 3rd kind’ hahah, well not quite but I do feel a similarity. I have made 40mg, I think, and it tested + for Indoles. This is from the suspected A. Neurophylla.
( in your pic I feel the phylodes are longer than mine !!! I need a better camera that will take close-ups)
side note.
I'm seeing 3 types of 'Acuminata' so far, 2 have the telltale long thin phylodes but they have different bark colour,brown and dark gray, and 1, of which I now have 5 x 1.5m mini trees from seedlings, has VERY thin phylodes that feels stronger(than the other two) when bent, sharper, and have a green/silvery bark. More desert-like, I suspect they might be A. Bukkitti sub.s., or hopefully a true A. Acuminata (narrow phylode) as they came from Beverly in WA. and sold as such A.A.
But doing the Math, If a person harvested 1 or 2kg of bark and cuttings, phylodes etc, and got say 7-10gms DMT per year, that would be a huge amount No?. I can imagine that lot would last someone like me a life time never mind a year. So by planting a small tree one could cater for one’s own needs plus a few friends for ever. A mature 2 ton tree that finally falls over in a storm must contain 100’s of lifetimes of DMT. Just musing..
thanx NSmile Smile
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austra
#418 Posted : 5/10/2012 3:41:33 PM
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Nen is there any particular reason why you use ethanol in the initial stage.
If I was performing an extraction I would plan on going by the BLAB tek, using fumaric acid and then freebasing. My understanding was that with the fumaric acid salting the spice would drop out and as such the fat content of leaf matter compared to MHRB the extractions usually use would not really matter, do the phyllodes require a different approach?
 
nen888
#419 Posted : 5/11/2012 8:08:30 AM
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..^ there's no 'right' extraction method, and there are different preferences..
tryptamines are more immediately soluble in methanol or ethanol (incl. cold), than in moderately acidic solutions..in the specific case of acacias, too low a pH (strong acidic) can cause reactions in some of the compounds present..my philosophy is to minimize extremities of pH and heat manipulation..i quite recommend the thread Confusa Extraction for discussion of methodology (although DoingKermit seems to have the project on hold for now)
..................................................

Growpen wrote:
Quote:
I know of DMT only through Nexus and have no social reference for it. I am ‘drawn’ to making DMT, like the opening guy of ‘Close Encounters of the 3rd kind’ hahah, well not quite but I do feel a similarity.
..woah..Gravitas and Kudos..the Nexus is certainly a one of a kind site, and the molecule dmt seems to have a strong 'field' around it which calls some..
..& especially now you've got a reagent kit and all, this makes me proud of this site and it's potential..
i think the Nexus is a model for interest-based web sites in a number of ways..

many thanks to the Traveler, without who's hard work and vision this site wouldn't be here, nor this thread..
.


ps. re: A. acuminata/burkitii/neurophylla, subspecies and other close relatives - there is so much genetic interaction going on that i think it could be said that in Western Australia, acacias that look like any of these have a high chance of containing dmt
.
 
nen888
#420 Posted : 5/13/2012 4:50:41 AM
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..here's one partly for the chemically minded and curious,
a couple of factors in acacia chemistry which could result in failure to efficiently extract alkaloids..despite many rumors of alkaloids binding to tannins (as the 'tannate) etc., i can find no direct evidence of this..instead the problems appear to be related to the Tars, which will vary seasonally in plants..
Wood Tars (Amphoteric Resins) are complex formations of phenols, cresols, guaiacols, and xylenols..
from JG's original A. maidenii experiments 1992 [see p10#197 here]..the first extraction went smoothly, but the 2nd:
Quote:
On attempting to acidify, filter, and basify, considerable difficulty was experienced; the acidified residue seemed unfilterable, and when basified with NH3, a thick pink gel was formed which was impossible to extract. By a painful process of trial and error, I found that at very low pH, most of the resins became dissolved or suspended. At slightly low pH, the residue separated nicely into a tar and an aqueous phase. At slightly high pH, the mixture became a thick gelatinous solid. At very high pH, this solid redissolved. The result of this seems to be that much of the tar can be separated by successive extraction at moderately low pH (dilute HCl), and then that the addition of strong hydroxide will leave the amphoteric resins in solution, but make the alkaloids insoluble. These are then extracted into dichloromethane as before, and the organic layer is back extracted with salty NaOH solution to remove impurities.
..so yes, careful and fine manipulation of the pH (up or down) can resolve such an issue..

..what form of salts are the alkaloids in acacias..? unknown for sure, and probably varies, but turns out this could relate to Gum chemistry..many acacias of course contain gum exudates (both edible and anti-biotic), Gum Arabic being the most common (from A. nilotica & A. aribica)
the main acids which have been found in acacias are Uronic Acids (e.g. A. senegal, A. leata, A. mangium)
..they are a class of plant metabolite often bonded with polysachharides, a class of 'Sugar Acid'
..the gum of A. senegal (and others) comprises partly of the Uronic acids D-glucuronic acid, and 4-O-methyl-D-glucuronic acid [see Studies on uronic acid materials : PARTS XX - XXIV Anderson et al. 1968]

..water-soluble salts of the Uronic acids polymannuronic acid, polyglucuronic acid and polygalaturonic acid were prepared from the bases of the alkaloids pilocarpine, atropine, amphetamine, epinephrine (and others) in Ophthalmic Composition Comprising Water-Soluble Alkaloid Salts of Polyuronic Acids; Patent 1966..the study found that alkaloid Polyuronic salts were better than Hydrochloride salts for prolonged contact treatment (e.g. ointments)

..the other acid found in acacias (other than amino-acids, which i don't think form salts) is Pipercolic acid
(piperidine-2-carboxylic acid), found in some microorganisms and the Murchison meteorite!
..4-hydroxy-pipecolic acid is also known from acacias..
& A. concinnia contained Acacic acid ((3b,16a,21b)-Trihydroxyolean-12-en-28-oic acid)..

that should give the odd researcher something to think about..
............................................................................................................................................................................



ps. have started compiling info on Acacia confusa 海药周到的树 into The Acacia Confusa thread
..i figure more widely utilized species eventually deserve their own threads..

below are Acacia richii (synon. with A. confusa, perhaps a subspecies, common in Fiji and Pacific);
and then A. confusa growing in Taiwan..

.
nen888 attached the following image(s):
acacia richii.jpg (174kb) downloaded 897 time(s).
Confusa Taiwan.jpg (258kb) downloaded 896 time(s).
 
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