A friend of mine told me about a problem he's trying to figure out, and quite frankly I'm stumped as to how best to approach this one. For starters, the basic rundown:

Cold water extraction on 2lbs MHRB with Naptha
A significant amount of white crystals from the initial extractions
Saved the strained naptha and evaporated to get waxy jungle spice
Allowed to dry for several days in front of a fan at temperatures approx. 74 degrees Fahrenheit.
Initially tried some of the waxy jungle and it was intensely more visual than the white snowflakes (as has been previous experiences), but after the drying out was left with orangish-red wax/crystal rocks with the occasional fleck of what I assume is residual hydroxide. This substance is much less visually active than it was just a few days ago (a week at most).

What, if anything, can be done to salvage this extraction? Thanks in advance for your replies!

Its very hard to answer such questions when you dont include key information such as smoking method and dosage, as well as what base was used, if you did STB or A/B, etc

DMT doesnt degrade in such a way as you seem to imply, specially not so quick, and it wont just dissapear, if its there its there.

Here's some links that might be of your interest to research:

https://wiki.dmt-nexus.m...e_best_smoking_method.3F
https://wiki.dmt-nexus.m...zz_only.2C_what_to_do.3F
https://wiki.dmt-nexus.m..._my_spice_ok_to_smoke.3F
https://wiki.dmt-nexus.m...hould_I_wash_my_spice.3F
https://wiki.dmt-nexus.m...oes_one_recrystallize.3F

I'm not talking about just the pure DMT. The goal was to wind up back with the waxy jungle spice. Oxidation DOES occur in jungle spice, and in some cases it increase potency in the short term, but over the long term degrade beyond being pleasant.

Smoking method isn't an issue, I simply included the subjective experience for flavor and as an added identifier in case my terminology wasn't what was expected. Also, I named the base (MHRB = Mimosa Hostilis Root Bark), I also described the method, which is STB. Perhaps you'd care to re-read my post again before replying?

I did read your post well. Mimosa isnt a base, mimosa is a plant source, base is something like NaOH or Ca(OH)2.

You didnt describe your method you just said "cold water extraction on mimosa", which could have been cold soak and filter (and with X amount of pulls) or without filtering. Meaning A/B or STB, and no details on anything else regarding how you performed it (amounts, size of pulls, how you separated, if solvent was washed, etc etc). Also you mntioned you tried the jungle that was potent but after drying it was less potent, meaning you smoked jungle still wet with petrochemicals ??

Jungle spice = 90+% DMT anyways, as Ive analysed myself and you can read in the link in my signature... And DMT doesnt degrade as you said, so if you really noticed some reduced potency I would suppose something else appart from alkaloid degradation. The first thing that comes to my mind is innacurate dosaging, innefective smoking method, normal variation in effects that happens even within the same batch, and the other psychological/spiritual aspects related to excess use and denied breakthroughs that are also mentioneed in the FAQ

Smoking method is an issue with most people, even experienced users, hence why Im asking, if you care to tell me what it is and what dosage you are using, I can probably give you more feedback.

Did you read the links I quoted carefully?

There were 4 baths performed using 500ml distilled water with 5tbsp sodium hydroxide added in each bath, 2lbs/90g Mexican MHRB and separated using 35-40ml VMN&P Naptha/jar, filtered through a fine mesh stainless steel tea strainer using a turkey baster. Two of the baths were freeze precipitated and resulted in the regular snow globe effect. These crystals alone seem, both smoked using a bed of herbs or vaporized with accurate experienced dosage, to give a much more wholly physical effect with minimal visuals, and very seldom in color.

The other two baths (the latter of the two if it matters) were poured into glass bowls and evaporated with a fan at an average temperature of 72 degrees until I was left with a slightly oily waxy yellow jungle spice. Some of it was dry enough to spread on to herbs and smoke, and the visuals were night and day compared to just the white crystals from freeze precipitation (this has been the case many times in the past and was expected). I decided to try and further dehydrate the jungle spice as I can't really find a practical container to store it in, in that form. I succeeded in letting it dry out into a mostly dry sand-like powder that's slightly sticky, but there are a few white specks that look suspiciously like sodium hydroxide residue interspersed amongst the sizable pile of what I thought was still jungle spice.

However, upon trying the same inhalation method I was resulted with a bit harsher fumes and the same sort of subjective experience as described before. I'd normally chalk this up to smoking method as you guessed at. However, I also tried ingesting 300mg of this spice and the white crystals separately along with 300mg B. Caapi extract (from a well-known source) and got similar results, barely any visuals, mostly a relaxed body experience with a little "shadowplay".

I've read the links you showed me, and while they've given me some hints on possible solutions involving trying to re-bath or re-solutize this stuff to try and get it back into the virulent jungle spice it was for a scant week or so. =(

The first two baths resulted in approx. 2g white crystals, and approx. 1g waxy jungle spice (from the residual Naptha evaporated after freeze precipitation filtering through a coffee filter and scraping out while still frozen to air dry). The latter two baths (the ones only evaporated, not freeze precipitated) yielded approx. 3g yellowish-orangish powder with bits of white "frosting" covering some specks (again, I suspect a tiny bit of hydroxide) after having been left in open air with a fan blowing on it in a glass bowl for about a week and a half. During the first part of that week the substance was a slightly hardened yellow/orange wax. A sample was tested both orally and via inhalation at this stage to outstanding effect. Later, when the dehydration had occurred, again similar results to the strangely impotent white crystals both orally and via inhalation.

I hope that's enough detail that you can help puzzle this out because while I imagine another bath is in order, I'm at a loss as to which direction to take specifically to achieve my desired result (i.e. the jungle spice regaining it's potency if possible?). I'm at a loss to understand exactly what's transpired chemically here and would appreciate insight. Thank you.

First thing, I think you should correct some issues you have with language/concepts used so that it prevents any further misunderstanding:

When you say 4 baths, I suppose you mean 4 pulls. When you say bath, it makes it seem like an A/B extraction when you do multiple boils in acidic phase. Pull is when you mix the solvent with your basified mixture, and then separate the solvent.

Also, calling "jungle spice" is misleading. Jungle spice is what is called when you extract using an aromatic or generally less selective solvent such as Xylene/Toluene. Just because you have something of a specific color does not mean its the same as jungle spice. Color may mean many things: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=11715

If you havent separated carefully and you believe you have lye/mimosa liquid droplets in your solvent, you should wash it as described in the FAQ, or if you already evaporated the solvent, you should recrystallize it, also as FAQ explains. These polar impurities could be why it tastes harsh (and/or the fact that you dont have an ideal vaporization method)

How did you consume the caapi extracts and the dmt, all together, one before the other, dissolved in acidic solution or capsuled, etc? If its capsuled, thats problematic. Did you ever have big success taking it orally at this dosage? If not, it could be youre just like me and you need big dosage when taking pharma. Next time try buying some actual caapi, brewing it yourself and throwing some DMT in there (smaler dose! test max at 100mg first), its way more effective than taking purified harmalas, specially if capsuled. Also if your supplier is the one im thinking (f visions), they have a history of bad business, I wouldnt trust them, extract your own rue/caapi or take whole brews better.

Do you weigh your dosages? If so, what dosage are you consuming? If not, eyeballing is very innefective so its impossible to take any conclusions unless you do weigh them.

One thing you might or might not have noticed, is that even with the same batch in same dosage, the experiences can change A LOT. I would really think that your problem is actually in dosage and smoking method, and also that your DMT is probably not clean enough (you consider "jungle" thinking its other alkaloids + DMT, but very possibly a bulk of your product is plant oils/impurities that were in the evapped naphtha). The fact you think your supposed jungle spice is somehow different is most likely IMO due to the fact that oils somewhat protect DMT during heating (in innefective smoking methods) and therefore it seems like it works different, since white crystals would be more exposed to heat and degrade faster if source of heat isnt controlled as in a good vaporization method.

One weird thing I didnt understand is that you said you first tried the supposed jungle product and then dried it.Dried it from what? If it was more moist, this means it had SOLVENT in it, you shouldnt smoke it before you are absolutely sure its completely dry of solvents.

Lastly, I think what you should do is: Recrystallize your stuff, get a scale if you dont, weigh proper amounts, vaporize either using an improvised convection method such as Inspirator MKII or buying a glass vapor genie and a torch lighter. Also in the meanwhile it wont hurt to just stop trying to smoke it for a while and dedicate to other things in life. This way it will start working for you, im pretty sure.

Ok to clarify. I used strictly a base pull, not an acid bath. So, I assume that would be STB in the terminology you're looking for?

I wasn't aware that the end products name was designated by the chemicals used to extract it. IF you're saying you can't get jungle spice from manipulating a STB/Naptha separation using the method I've described then I'm bewildered. My friends and I have done this procedure, using these methods, quite a number of times. Each time we wind up with the same results; the evaporated leftover filtered Naptha (after separating the white crystals) always leaves behind a slightly oily yellow waxy substance that is INTENSELY more visual than just the white crystals left by themselves using the same smoking method. The only difference this time, is that I tried to dry out the substance even more for ease of storage and dosing. I then added the last two pulls (still in Naptha solution) to the still drying leftovers (with the supposed "jungle" and the result, after a LOT of drying out, was a homogeneous mixture that looks like what you'd expect (again I know you said color can be deceiving, also the aromatics aren't quite as strong as previously encountered).

I've been weighing the dosage using an mg scale. The caapi extract was not F. Visions, though I have used them in the past and their extract worked for me at the time. I definitely received an MAO effect in combination with 200mg DMT taken orally mixed in a shot of orange juice (45-60mins after ingesting the caapi mixed in a solution of orange juice as well). For smoking, I've been weighing out 50-100mg. I really think you're probably right about the method interfering a bit, but I've gotten successful results MANY times from using alternate smoking methods other than a vaporizer.

I don't understand why you aren't getting what I mean by oily or waxy jungle spice and drying it out? I'm sure you've read it, but this article describes what I'm talking about perfectly and even mentions that you can get Tan Waxy jungle spice from STB methods if a heated Naptha pull is used.

Jungle Spice - Mystery Alkaloids of MHRB

I appreciate the the advice to recrystalize and clean it up...hopefully that works. The vaporizer can't hurt either. I really don't appreciate the last couple of sentences of your "advice", they come off as a little pedantic and holier-than-thou. Perhaps you should smoke MORE and it will start working for you?

If I read this correctly, did you add 500ml of water( made basic with the sodium hydroxide) in the mhrb, mix it and then filtered it? is it what you call a "bath"?

Its still confusing because you use the words "pull" and "bath" as if they are the same. Please keep the word "pull" for when you add a non-polar solvent and then separate it. If you just added a base to your mimosa solution and did non-polar pulls to that, you have an STB. If BEFORE you adding base you filtered the mimosa and kept the liquid, thats an A/B. If you added the base and then filtered the mimosa and kept the liquid, thats a mistake.



Yes jungle spice was a term that was invented to describe the fraction that comes when pulling with certain non-polars. At that point, people had not yet analysed it chemically to know what it was made of. You are making a supposition that just because you heat a naphtha pull and you get a certain color, you have the the same, or an equivalent alkaloid content. This is not known at this point. Also I dont see where in the jungle spice thread from entropymacer, it talks about hot naphtha pulling jungle alkaloids. It does say to use hot naphtha to separate dmt from the other things that are there in jungle that has been pulled by xylene (But Ive seen with chromatography that this is not so and DMT still remains even after a couple of warm naphtha pulls)



You are leaving behind two very important variables: 1- Self suggestion (you know it looks different, you expect different consciously or not, you feel different) and 2-Vaporization efficiency. Different products smoked in the same method will vaporize/burn differently. If you have pure DMT, or if you have a mixture of (inactive) plant oils and DMT, both will vaporize at different rates (also because as I said the oil might for example protect dmt from heat), and thus can result in what seems like a different trip from different alkaloids but its just related to how you consume it. So if you care to do that, a blind test would be a good idea, appart from a more effective vaporization method



Thats the proof right there your method is very inneficient. You dont need 50-100mg, specially not for trips as you describe that 'have no color' or whatever. With a propper method, 20-30mg is more than enough for a breakthrough.



Ask yourself, what is actually drying? If its still as dry as it gets, it most probably means you have a solvent trapped inside the oil, which means you are smoking solvent if you are not drying it before. Thats why it calls my attention that you say you tried it, and then dried it more. You should dry it fully and THEN smoke it (or vaporize it).



It was not meant to be pedantic or holier than thou in the least. Its a suggestion of a trick that worked for me, and is often expressed in this forum: If you are not getting to where you want, take a break, do other things, and maybe when you come back it starts working again. As you are probably well aware, the effects of psychedelics arent limited to the pharmacological action and to a certain dosage, but to all sorts of contextual factors that go beyond that. And if you are anyways taking the time to find a better method, I think its very reasonable to suggest that you use this time to take a break from DMT so yu can come back refreshed AND with a new vaporization method.

Your suggestion for me to smoke more, on the other hand, seems mean spirited and unwarranted. I am spending my time trying to help you out, at no moment did I lack respect or have negative intentions or bad attitude. Please dont project on my words and react in such a way.

moonlitknight, you are making no sense. how old are you?

The jungle spice you speak of sounds more like dmt n'oxide? Ime this is very visual.