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Trying to improve Acacia information Options
 
nen888
#261 Posted : 1/21/2012 10:45:44 AM
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..nice to hear from you Seldom Smile ..i wish i'd videoed the audience at the talk so i could take in who was there..it was all very freeform..loved that conference!

it's great that you lured out Trout with that old paper..very good reference list in there..i guess this thread is trying to go beyond where acacia knowledge stood back then, but that paper was a great effort..Trout is such a nice and inspiring guy..i hope to nudge him and friends to come out with some more USAcacia research (before he migrates to Australia)

thanks for the sharing..
 

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nen888
#262 Posted : 1/21/2012 12:44:09 PM
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..on Mimosa pudica ("sensitive plant" )..in Panama used to treat arthritis, decoction in Guatemala used to treat urinary infections, in India to treat epilepsy, in Trinidad root taken as calming sophorific drink, also considered aphrodisiac in asia..[see Voogelbreinder 2009 p.230]
..stems found to contain mimosine and mimoside..the pulvinus contains crocetin (also found in Crocus spp.) and petiole norepinephrine [Appelwhite 1973; Tiwari & Spenser 1965]

Voogelbreinder writes
Quote:
The foilage and twigs..have been both smoked and infused as an obscure psychotropic drug by experimenters in the US, reportedly producing distortions of spatial orientation...
...I can confirm the plant is psychoactive, but these reports seem to be exaggerated..
..though he also notes root-extract overdose could result in coma and possible death..
Trout (1997) found tentative DMT in seeds, and 5meDMT in aerial parts..

..M. pudica is a great plant to grow for interest and to amuse kids (told, obviously, not to eat it!) ..it's the one with the leaves that move when touched..
nen888 attached the following image(s):
mimosa-pudica-1.jpg (129kb) downloaded 755 time(s).
 
nen888
#263 Posted : 1/21/2012 2:25:58 PM
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..2 quick botanical terms (mentioned in previous post) which will help generally are:

the pulvinus is the swelling at the base of the petiole, often capable of changing form to bring about movement of leaf, sometimes glandular or responsive to touch.

the petiole is the stalk or stem that connects the leaf to the plant

i'll compile a list of botanical terms used in this thread (aril etc. ) in the near future..
 
Gowpen
#264 Posted : 1/22/2012 11:52:45 AM

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Seldom wrote:
nen - i have massive appreciation for your work. i was lucky enough to catch your talk on NMT in obtusifolia at EGA last year, (nice balaclava) so thank you.

i post over at another forum called Shaman Australis, i started a thread a few days ago asking about a K Trout publication called Notes on the Acacia Species Reported to Contain Tryptamines and/or Beta-Carbolines. the end result being that KT has made a .pdf of the document available through his website. it may be old hat but in the interest of sharing information, here it is

http://www.largelyaccura..._Acacia_revision2004.pdf

Great post, I just wasted time with 5 extracts from acacia podalyriifolia seed pods, bark, and leaves.
I will try acuminata next as Im in WA. Shaman australis offer MimosaHostilis Plants, for real ?
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Muttley
#265 Posted : 1/23/2012 12:39:05 PM

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Hi all.

I hope I'm posting in the right place...

One day an unknown foreigner tourist came to me and start asking questions about acacias. They grow everyware in this region. He wants to identify them, but it is very very dificult. he can never be 100% sure. there are many diferent types, and many of them look almost the same.
Then he thought to start making extractions and trying it. Could it be dangerous? He knows that some may contain cyanogens and other toxic compounds. Is there any tek or procedure to make sure the bad stuff stay behind? How about feeding a portion of the extractions to some mice as ginea pigs?
He has done some successfull extractions on mhrb, but he is no chemistry expert...

He is willing to share pictures and results thus contributing to this thread.
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wira
#266 Posted : 1/23/2012 12:44:10 PM

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There have been numerous net reports of failure with podalyriaefolia, all seemingly stemming from the dubious misreferenced claim of it containing high yields of a certain alkaloid. The interesting thing to me is, this species has (in the chemical literature) been found to contain what was thought to be phenethylamine and tryptamine, in varying yields and proportions. As nen888 has pointed out, these studies of White's where tryptamine was reported have in several cases been found to actually be good DMT-producers instead, so even on that basis it would have been work checking out more than once. However, what I was getting to is that people are doing extractions on this species (or what they believe to be this species?) and getting nothing, whereas some mix of alkaloids would be expected at least some of the time, even if not containing DMT.

Regarding mimosine and Mimosa pudica... Those text extracts are accurate, but do not equate to saying "the plant is psychoactive, therefore one of its main known components must be considered psychoactive". I'm not saying it's not, but that hasn't been established as far as I know, through dosing with isolated mimosine. From the sounds of the known toxicity I would say this might be something to stay away from, at least in regards to any kind of extensive or extended use, because as far as I know human pharmacology is unknown, and we don't know much about the long-term health effects amongst people who use this plant as a medicine. Anyway, the book you quoted says that "stems contain the amino acid mimosine and the glycoside mimoside", but it does not indicate that these are the major components. Also, major components aren't always solely responsible for the activities of a plant, and sometimes they do little or nothing alone but bring out a greater effect in combination with other components. Regarding norepinephrine, the yields found in the one assay cited were very, very low. Surely there must have been more chemical work done on this plant since the sources cited by Vooge;breinder - I'll have to look into it.
 
nen888
#267 Posted : 1/24/2012 12:45:24 AM
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..wira, yeah i'm not exactly recommending M. pudica, except as an ornamental, but i would have thought such an interesting plant would be better chemically studied..in fact i'm generally astonished how relatively chemically unstudied the entire plant world is..especially american leguminosae
..i recall reading a while back that the mimosine hair-loss result was not replicated in another test..i'll try to find this reference..

..Iain1..gee, sounds like you deserve a yielding species after all that..i don't know what the story is with podalyriaefolia as i haven't experimented with it..i have certainly done a lot of non-yielding experiments in the name of science..
i have also had a report of a negative result from A. oxycedrus near melbourne, but the ID is not certain..there are varieties and hybrids, +ve results from NSW and central-western Victoria..also, recall chocobeastie had both a +ve and -ve result from A. mearnsii..this thread is about sorting all this out, so i guess for now we can declare A. podalyriaefolia probably not so reliable for alakloids, though i will attempt to find out where White's source material was from..
..as for A. acuminata, while apparently varying qualitatively, the quantity of alkaloids seems consistently high, and it is common..hence it's recommendation in this thread..

..Muttley..i covered saftey and possible toxins a little on p.13#247-248..cyanogenic glycosides should not transfer to a basic non-polar extraction, but completely unknown species are, well, just that..as i said earlier, it is oral ingestion which would be the most potentially dangerous..it is definitely important to study the extraction teks here on the nexus, as well as researching plant ID, before undertaking such experimentation..that said, i know of no reported serious toxicity arising from the inhalation of acacia extract vapors to date (but around only 30 out of 1200 species have been assayed)

..reminder, INDEX OF THREAD on p.1 & p.11
.
 
nen888
#268 Posted : 1/24/2012 2:37:49 AM
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..another acacia considered consistent in quantity (like A. acuminata) is Acacia floribunda..at the 2011 EGA conference, acacia researcher 'J.J.' commented that while he had found a lot of highly variable species, he had never come across a floribunda which didn't contain DMT..i know of quite a few all positive results from floribunda, and yet there were two negative reports last year on the nexus..while seasonal variance is still possible, i feel either extraction technique/solvent, or pinpoint ID of species, may be the issue..the former issue is covered a bit earlier and as for the latter, there a a few species which could be mistaken for A. floribunda (Gossamer Wattle)

Acacia floribunda is australian native to Victoria and NSW, is naturalized in WA and QLD, and widely grown..the phyllodes have no basal gland..the pods are brown, about 5mm wide, 6-9cm long, very slightly curved, and slightly constricted between seeds..
interestingly, the original 'type' specimen (from which the species was named mimosa floribunda in 1804) was cultivated in France, so it's a very early botanotraveler...
nen888 attached the following image(s):
Acacia_floribunda_077.jpg (123kb) downloaded 719 time(s).
ac_florib_.jpg (142kb) downloaded 706 time(s).
floribunda in suburbia.jpg (141kb) downloaded 704 time(s).
 
nen888
#269 Posted : 1/24/2012 5:34:17 AM
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..groovy recent Acacia confusa extraction report thread here..https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/d...&m=314116#post314116..
 
acacian
#270 Posted : 1/26/2012 12:59:50 AM

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hi nen, i've noticed in my area that the floribundas vary in appearance somewhat in their phyllodes. some have really thin phyllodes while others have thicker phyllodes, a bit more like obtusifolia

do you know if one is better than the other for extraction?
 
acacian
#271 Posted : 1/26/2012 1:16:54 AM

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also what solvents would you reccomend for acacias?
 
nen888
#272 Posted : 1/26/2012 1:32:21 AM
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..the higher yielding forms of maidenii and longifolia have thicker, more leathery phyllodes..it does seem to be a factor, and probably applies to floribunda
also, in victoria it could be easy to confuse some forms of A. mucronata with floribunda, but they have thinner, more erect phyllodes, and less dense flowers..mucronata var. longifolia in victoria has tested +ve for tryptamines, whereas var. mucronata in tasmania tested -ve..as for solvents, bricklaya, see p9#173, and note some experiments by this author elsewhere on nexus..

below are A. mucronata var. longifolia in victoria..

and A. oxycedrus X sophorae (which may be the 'active' variety..not enough tests on the different forms yet) ..

nen888 attached the following image(s):
a. mucronata, victoria.jpg (78kb) downloaded 654 time(s).
Acacia oxycedrus x sophorae.jpg (100kb) downloaded 653 time(s).
 
nen888
#273 Posted : 1/26/2012 1:44:16 AM
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..haven't heard from yatiqiri in a while..hope all's well! ..here's a reminder that i think your last experimental tree was Acacia tortuosa (see bottom of p.12 for more)
..
nen888 attached the following image(s):
Acacia tortuosa.jpg (623kb) downloaded 645 time(s).
 
nen888
#274 Posted : 1/26/2012 2:44:12 AM
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..as this thread also sometimes delves into trying to improve leguminoseae info. generally, i thought i'd mention Calliandras again.. (see p.4)
Calliandra pentandra (botanic status unclear) and the closely related Calliandra angustifolia ('Bobinzana' ) are used as ayahuasca additives in South America..according to the Tropical Plant Database:
Quote:
The Shipibo-Conibo Indians in the Ucayali area of Peru call the tree semein and prepare a bark tincture for rheumatism, arthritis, colds, uterine disorders, and edema (or water retention). The indigenous people and tribes in the Madre de Dios region of the Peruvian Amazon prepare a bark tincture (with aguardiente) for bone pain, arthritis, rheumatism, and colds. They also grate the bark into baths to increase resistance to sickness and to resist the cold and chills.

a few have been found to contain ß-carbolines incl. tetrahydroharmine..in "Sacred Vine of Spirits: Ayahuasca" Ralph Metzner wrote (p.101) :
Quote:
THH is another major alkaloid in B. caapi. I have also detected this alkaloid in the leaves of Calliandra pentandra, which are sometimes added to ayahuasaca by the Shuar in Equador, where it is reported to enhance the visionary effects of this brew (Fericgla 1996). This is a bit surprising, as THH is not remarkably psychoactive on it's own, even after MAO inhibition (unpublished results). THH like other 1-methyl-tetrahydro-ß-carbolines, probably serves to further increase serotonin concentrations by weakly inhibiting serotonin's reuptake into presynaptic neurons after MAO inhibition by harmine (Airaksinen 1980).


..but, the mystery deepens..a little while back Entropymancer (thanks Smile) very kindly sent me this, from Entheogen Review 1995:
Quote:
CALLIANDRA CHEMISTRY?

[Q: Has anyone come up with analysis for any Calliandra species to see if they are in fact DMT-containing? In Ott’s Shamanic Snuffs or Entheogenic Errhines, he mentions that this is used as a direct replacement for Diplopterys carbrerana in ayahuasca preparation. Ott strongly suggests that this genus may have some DMT containing species. — J.S., OR]

E.R. : The one analysis that we have seen mentioned comes from the Shulgins’ book TIHKAL in listing #54 on tetrahydroharmine (THH), wherein Sasha states:

"There are a number of other plants that are known to contain tetrahydroharmine and to have been used in various native preparations. I have recently learned of analysis of an Ayahuasca brew that had used the plant Calliandra pentandra as a component, instead of the usual Psychotria viridis. Ott’s magnificent compendium Pharmacotheon makes mention of a Calliandra augustifolia as a component of ayahuasca, but there is no mention of this pentandra species. The preliminary analysis that I have been given of this decoction is that a component that had initially appeared to be DMT by HPLC analysis had proven to be tetrahydroharmine when assayed by GCMS. There was no detectable DMT present. And yet the material appears to have psychopharmacological activity.

"More studies on tetrahydroharmine are absolutely imperative."

We had previously noticed some remarks regarding the activity of THH made by chemist Jace Callaway (Callaway 1995), so we asked him for his thoughts:

J.Callaway: "The picture is not at all clear on this one. THH is a weak SRI (serotonin reuptake inhibitor), like the other 1-methyl-THBCs, so one can expect it to have about as much psychoactivity as a SSRI (i.e., little to none). In combination with MAOI, it acts to promote serotonergic activity
by blocking 5-HT reuptake. Clearly, it is not a potentially lethal combination, as with harmine and Prozac for example, and I suppose that serotonin will compete with THH for the uptake site once serotonin concentrations have reached sufficient levels (pure speculation; those experiments have not been done, to my knowledge).

"However, in a broad (as yet unpublished) survey of Banisteriopsis caapi, Psychotria viridis and subsequent teas, which included phytochemical analyses of all, plus subjective ratings of the teas, a strong correlation was found with teas that contained high amounts of THH and not DMT! This rating was from a large body of experienced users (regular União do Vegetal members who had consumed ayahuasca for 10+ years). In short, yes, there seems to be important activity from THH, but likely not the sort of activity that currently seems valuable to the
lay user in the U.S. or E.U.; e.g., more temporal, than whirly/swirly, if you know what I mean.

"I have tried THH, alone and in combination with MAOI, and there is a twinkling of sorts, but one might get a substantially similar reaction from Prozac. Also, there are two isomers possible from THH (+ and -, or d and l). I would suppose that one is more active than the other. Simply heating in boiling water will convert one to the other, so most teas will have both. the “d” form is the one reported to be found in the plant (d-leptaflorine), and I have often wondered about tales from the rainforests, where the tea is sometimes prepared just from soaking the macerated vine overnight (no heating, no admixtures), with visions resulting. Note: I suppose the desired vine should be a chemovare having high levels of THH.

"Calliandra pentandra has good amounts of THH in the leaves, and it is used as an add mixture by some groups like the Shuar in Equador, and visions have been reported by reliable western folk from this and Banisteriopsis caapi. So, there still may be something there to look at more closely.

"I am not aware of any other analyses on this plant species, aside from my own investigations (which are what Sasha refers to in TIHKAL). From my limited perspective, C. pentandra does not contain any DMT, and THH was the major component that showed up in my analysis. These two compounds have quite similar chromatographic characteristics; without mass spectral detection, I would have to doubt any claims that lack such
specificity."
— Jace Callaway, Ph.D.

..Calliandras [see also p.4#68] are very pretty plants..a few species were ceremonially significant to the Aztecs and Mayans..
below is 'Bobinzana' (C. angustifolia)
nen888 attached the following image(s):
calliandra angustifolia 1.jpg (108kb) downloaded 636 time(s).
Bobinzana (Calliandra angustifolia).jpg (162kb) downloaded 635 time(s).
 
acacian
#275 Posted : 1/26/2012 3:16:11 AM

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just on the topic legumes does anyone know about possible alkaloid content of albezia jurissima?
 
nen888
#276 Posted : 1/26/2012 3:20:42 AM
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..as i'm still about, do you mean Albizzia julibrissin (Persian Silk Tree), with confirmed anti-depressant effects..contains serotonin & noripinephrine (Applewhite 1973).."I have read reports of individuals smoking the bark for..CNS effects." [S. Voogenbreinder in Garden Of Eden 2009]
.
 
nen888
#277 Posted : 1/28/2012 9:15:15 AM
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..an Asian tree in need of conservation and research is Acacia caesia, the bark of which apparently contained DMT-N-Oxide and tryptamine [Ghosal 1972]..it is recorded in
Secondary forests at 200–2500 m. in China in Guangdong, Hainan, Sichuan,
Yunnan, Taiwan as well as Bangladesh, Cambodia, India, Laos, Myanmar, Sri Lanka,
Thailand, Vietnam and possibly northern Phillipines..it may be endangered in China..

the top picture may be a variant form with a larger number of pinnae (small leaves)
.
nen888 attached the following image(s):
a. caesia 2.jpg (148kb) downloaded 777 time(s).
acacia caesia_.jpg (100kb) downloaded 774 time(s).
 
nen888
#278 Posted : 1/28/2012 9:28:16 AM
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..Acacia heterophylla is endemic to Réunion island in the Indian Ocean, and introduced to Madagasgar..it is very evolutionarily and genetically closely related to Acacia confusa, and believed to have a high probability of containing dmt or other tryptamines..
nen888 attached the following image(s):
acacia_heterophylla2.jpg (47kb) downloaded 768 time(s).
acacia_heterophylla_31_reference.jpg (46kb) downloaded 762 time(s).
 
Muttley
#279 Posted : 1/29/2012 1:35:37 PM

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These pictures were taken all at the same time, and they are from the same plant. I think it is an an acacia longifolia. What do you think?

























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nen888
#280 Posted : 1/29/2012 11:44:15 PM
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..yes, that looks like the classic green and gold of Acacia longifolia..
the pods should look like the pic below, hardening to brown..
nen888 attached the following image(s):
a.longifolia pods_ green2.JPG (8kb) downloaded 738 time(s).
 
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