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Trying to improve Acacia information Options
 
nen888
#221 Posted : 12/28/2011 2:30:10 AM
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..here are a couple of photos of one of the more unusual looking 'spike' or 'rod' flower acacias Acacia oxycedrus from NSW and Victoria..it has numerous different forms and natural hybrids with A. longifolia, A. floribunda and possibly A. obtusifolia..three tests (2 Vic, 1 NSW) have found good amounts of tryptamines in the stem bark and phyllodes...
nen888 attached the following image(s):
Acacia_oxycedrus-1.jpg (40kb) downloaded 1,202 time(s).
a. oxycedrus - spike wattle 2.jpg (152kb) downloaded 1,198 time(s).
 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
wira
#222 Posted : 12/28/2011 2:44:23 PM

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Hi nen888,
my reply re: berlandieri was mainly meant to address your comment that you wouldn't expect just tyramine to be producing staggers, so I mentioned the other major alkaloids that have been found. Regarding Clement's trace compounds, at least we agree (I think!) that the presence of many of them is questionable, but as far as what Trout was saying about other people since failing to replicate them, I don't think there have been any actual published studies on the alkaloids of this or rigidula since those last papers. I presume he was referring to unpublished efforts using similarly high-powered analysis methods, which he knew of due to knowing interesting people... So, whatever they WERE finding as trace alkaloids, I don't know, just that they failed to find any of the questionable compounds. I'll ask for more details... Anyway, I don't think that all alkaloid-containing plants must contain heaps of extreme trace alkaloids, rather than just a few; it is true for some plants but there is not enough data to generalise on that.
Thanks for the nice giraffe pics! Always love a giraffe Very happy
 
nen888
#223 Posted : 12/31/2011 6:53:05 AM
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..so i just want to pool the current information regarding Acacia acuminata constituents..

White 1957 found (in spp. acuminata) stems and leaves (harvested Oct. ) 1.5% of mostly tryptamine, an unidentified phenethylamine, and another unidentified non-volatile base..

Jeremy 2007 (cited in Voogelbreinder 2009) found (in spp. acuminata) found mainly DMT in mature leaves (0.6-0.8%), 1.6% DMT in bark, and mainly tryptamine in young leaves, by GCMS..spp.burkittii was said to be more variable..

..it has been widely utilized in the underground both as extracts and in pharmahuasca for the past 10 years following successful bioassays in WA..
it is almost certainly the most used in ayahuasca analogues of all australian species, with probably quite a few hundred assays..people generally report it to be very 'clean'/DMT/healing..

which brings us to the latest GCMS done by endlessness on leaves of a broad leaf variety..collected June
Tetrahydroharman: DMT: Tryptamine: 3-Methyl-Quinoline(unconfirmed): Harman: N-Methyl-Phenetylamine: Phenetylamine
49.7 : 11.9: 10.6: 0.7: 0.6: 0.4: 0.1 (total alkaloid approx 1.2%)

the actual leaves tested have been used without toxic side-effects in conjunction with MAOIs (by others)
..from past experience with ß-carboline dominated acacia extracts (e.g. mucronata), i would describe the effects as slowed and modified, and deeply healing in a slightly different mode than pure DMT..

..it would be good to hear from other nexians what kind of results they have had with various parts and strains of acuminata..

[EDIT May 2012: Narrow Phyllode strain tested by endlessness yielded 0.9-1.0% almost entirely DMT, very small traces of 2MeTHBC..]


Here is a key to the various sub-forms of Acacia acuminata:
.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Key
1 Phyllodes terete to flat, 0.7–2 mm wide AND seeds clearly turgid (often globose); flowering spikes 5–10 (–20) mm (Arid Zone)
burkittii

1: Phyllodes flat, more than 2 mm wide OR if 2 mm or narrower then seeds laterally compressed; flowering spikes 10–30 mm long

- 2 Pods 2.5–3 mm wide; seeds 2–3 mm long, <2 mm wide; compressed (1–1.5 mm thick); phyllodes (5–) 7–10 cm long, 3–6 mm wide, straight (Kalannie - near Yalgoo)
acuminata (small seed variant)

2: Pods 3–7 mm wide; seeds larger than above; phyllodes often >10 cm long

- 3 Phyllodes mostly 2–3 mm wide and straight to shallowly incurved; pods 3–5 mm wide

- 4 Seeds 3–4 mm long, 1.8–2.5 mm wide, compressed (1–1.5 mm thick) (Morawa SE to Balladonia
acuminata (narrow phyllode variant)

4: Seeds slightly larger and more turgid than above (4–5 mm long, 2.5–3 mm wide, 1.5–2.5 mm thick) (Mullewa N to north of Murchison River)
acuminata/burkittii (variant 1)

3: Phyllodes mostly 4–8 mm wide and +/- straight to recurved; pods 4–7 mm wide

- 5 Seeds 2.3–3 mm wide, mostly compressed (1.8–2.5 mm thick) (Mingenew S to Borden & Ravensthorpe area)
acuminata (typical variant)

5: Seeds broader than above and clearly turgid (3.5–4 mm wide, 3–3.5 mm thick), globose (Eradu to Northampton and Ajana)
acuminata/burkittii (variant 2)

...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

below are a broad-leaf variety (similar to the tested one) and a narrow-leaf variant (which may have a higher dmt ratio in the leaves)
nen888 attached the following image(s):
acuminata-typical_2.jpg (93kb) downloaded 1,172 time(s).
acuminata narrow leaf_.jpg (160kb) downloaded 1,165 time(s).
 
dromedary
#224 Posted : 12/31/2011 9:20:50 AM

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Yield from previously mentioned unidentified acacia. I am reluctant to bioassay until I've positively identified the plant, but the extract looks quite promising:
 
nen888
#225 Posted : 12/31/2011 9:34:01 AM
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..wow dromedary, certainly does look promising, especially if it has the 'right' smell..

are you awaiting pods/seeds for positive ID? keep in mind that even a positively identified tree can vary in it's alkaloid content..looks like you have a very good time or location (and yield) ..i can't think of anything yet found in an acacia that smoked could cause physical harm in the 20-30mg range..one or two acacias have been found to contain nicotine which would be dangerous orally (but wouldn't probably it make into an A/B NP extract) ..the most dangerous acacia would be A. georginae (gidgee) which (mainly in the seeds) contains small amounts of fluoroacetic acid, very toxic but possibly destroyed by pyrolis/heat (as indigenous people have used bark shavings and twigs as a tea substitute) ..but this is the only species so far i would urge to avoid..on the whole acacia extracts to date have proven relatively safe at normal doses..

and there's always backyard TLC for the intrepid..Smile

..look forward to a final conclusion on it, thanks again..
.

 
nen888
#226 Posted : 12/31/2011 12:37:49 PM
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..i want to add to the last post that i think the main potential dangers associated with entheogenic acacias would be when used in conjunction with MAOIs as 'ayahusaca' analogues..in particular, people who have not studied with a shamanic/healing tradition should not be taking responsibility for others' health and well being..there are very real dangers possible with ingestion of other substances or people injuring themselves by wandering unsupervised..
..the small number of people who have taken the risks to bioassay and test these species have usually spent years of careful self-experimentation before drawing wider attention to these species..
..vaporization is by far the safest method of exploring these relatively unknown plants..
and if you're feeling uncertain..then don't..

a number of species contain highly unknown compounds (e.g. spermadines) and at least 2 contain nicotine (which can be lethal in the mg range orally)
.
 
nen888
#227 Posted : 1/3/2012 2:07:12 AM
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..welcome robertus-spagyricus..

lovely looking plant..i would say (based on flowers and leaf) that it's in the Pittosporaceae family (similar to australian 'Native Frangipani' [which is not related to frangipanis], but a different species)
..all i know of are flavonoids and anti-microbial oils in this family..

acacia ID does take a bit of getting used to..the key features are as follows:
Flowers - (either 'spike' or 'ball' shaped) are comprised of many minute flowers densely grouped in the flower head, with no petals;
Pods - straight, curved to twisted legume (pea-like), brown and hard, seeds very hard;
Leaves (Phyllodes) - most acacias do not have true leaves, but phyllodes which are actually an extension of the bark..acacia phyllodes are the same on both sides and have several to many longitudinal veins, but not many if any lateral veins..some species have leaves in the form of Pinnae, which are small leaves combining on the stem to create a 'fern-like' appearance (e.g. most african acacias, A. mearnsii)

i'm sure your plant has some kind of 'medicine', but what is a mystery..

 
nen888
#228 Posted : 1/3/2012 2:54:16 AM
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..a very interesting genus that is closely related to acacia is Prosopis, or 'Mesquite'..they are leguminous nitrogen-fixers, playing a similar role in their native environments to acacias..

..native americans use Mesquite as cleansing incense, and it was associated with the outlawed Ghost Dance cult..

from http://www.texasbeyondhistory.n...re/images/mesquite.html re Honey Mesquite (Prosopis glandulosa var glandulosa (Fabaceae)
Quote:
Its nutritious pods were highly valued as an important food resource rich in sugar and protein, its hard wood was used for making tools, musical instruments, and fuel, and the plant had medicinal and ritual uses as well.
Medicine. Mesquite gum, herbage, roots, and bark were used in medicinal applications. Leaves were often used in topical applications. Mescalero Apache ground or mashed leaves and mixed them with water, and applied the mix to the afflicted area, especially eyes. Mesquite gum, exudate that collected in cracks in the bark, was dissolved in water and applied to the eyes (Hrdlicka 1908 ).
The Cocopa boiled the inner bark in water given internally to newborns. Both mesquite gum and powdered mesquite bark have antiseptic qualities (Gifford 1933). The Pima treated diarrhea with an infusion of mesquite roots or gum. Astringent qualities of mesquite bark were also utilized by the Pima (Curtin 1949).

from http://www.themagickalcat.com/H...hips-1-oz-p/hd-mesqt.htm
Quote:
Mesquite is associated with healing, cleansing, and purification.  Use in healing incenses and mixtures. Use to fuel ritual fires or burn as an incense for cleansing & purification. Use an infusion of mesquite in the bath for purification.

from http://www.newstaco.com/2011/10...l-modern-natural-remedy/ by Richard G. Santos
Quote:
Fray Vicente de Santa Maria (1755 – 1813) in his Relación Histórica de la Colonia del Nuevo Santander (annotated by Ernesto de la Torre Villar, Mexico City, 1973) gave an excellent insight into the usage of mesquite by the Native American cultures of the present Mexican state of Tamaulipas and South Texas. He noted the hunter-gatherer Native Americans ate the fruit of the mesquite when ripe. They also ground it to powder form and used it as a form of flour to produce mezquitamal. This was then mixed with water and used as a medicinal tea, tortillas or tamales.

Prosopis are found in the Americas, Africa, Western Asia, and South Asia, often in arid soil. They are also a good source of natural sugars (polysacchrides)..

..a few Mesquite trees have rather interesting indole chemistry..
Prosopis alba (South America, Mexico) leaf has yielded 0.73% tryptamine, 0.7% phenethylamine and 0.43% tyramine [Graziano et al. 1971] as well as MAOI flavonoids including vitexin and quercetin..
Prosopis alpataco bark yielded tetrahydroharmine, cassine and N-methyl-cassine (of unstudied pharmacology) [Chiale et al. 1982]
Prosopis juliflora (Mexico, South America, Caribbean) has yielded tryptamine, NMT and serotonin [Smith 1977], juliflorine [Ahmad et al. 1989], tyramine [Camp & Norvell 1966] and flavonoids including rutin and apigenin (found in P. incarnata)
Prosopis nigra (Sth. America) bark contained cassine & N-methyl-cassine, leaves reasonable amounts of harman, tetrahydroharman, tryptamine, N-acetyl-tryptamine, and phenethylamine [Moro et al. 1975]
Prosopis ruscifolia and P. sericantha (S. and C. America) contained tetrahyrdoharman, cassine and N-methyl-cassine, as well as quercetin and vitexin..[Chiale et al. 1982]

..Mesquite in the USA, as well as the alkaloids cassine and juliflorine, remain fairly unstudied..

below are P. ruscifolia, P. glandulosa (honey mesquite), P. alba and P. juliflora (plant, flowers)
nen888 attached the following image(s):
prosopis arizona.jpg (262kb) downloaded 1,116 time(s).
honey mesquite1.jpg (63kb) downloaded 1,107 time(s).
prosopis alba.jpg (400kb) downloaded 1,104 time(s).
Prosopis juliflora-1.jpg (260kb) downloaded 1,097 time(s).
p. juliflora flowers.jpg (110kb) downloaded 1,093 time(s).
 
nen888
#229 Posted : 1/3/2012 4:43:16 AM
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..good on you Chief Hobo Stank..!Smile .. a Myrtaceae.. do you know anything about this plant? (medicinally that is)
all i can find are references to the usual volatile eucalyptus type oils..there is one rumor of a eucalyptus containing tryptamines, but this has never been followed up..hey wira, you got that reference..?
 
robertus-spagyricus
#230 Posted : 1/3/2012 8:51:40 AM

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Thanks very much for that Nen, very interesting. I shall sharpen my eye for Acacias!

And Cheers too Chief , it is indeed a Tristaniopsis.

Interestingly, one of the three quoted references in the Wikipedia article, the first source I checked, is a thread in none other than our Corroborree!

Indeed, this sheds some light. I had known that the existence of skatol is no definite indicator:

http://www.shaman-austra...dex.php?showtopic=26262

Pleased
 
nen888
#231 Posted : 1/4/2012 3:31:59 AM
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..thanks for that link robertus-spagyricus..though i will say that the comment about DMT having no smell is wrong, as soon to be released GCMS tests by endlessness should reveal..i don't think there will be any skatole present (even trace) and the samples, which are almost entirely DMT, have 'that' distinct smell..skatole is brown..

..in terms of the 'smell-test', i recommend obtaining a leaf of known to be active material, and familiarize oneself with the fumes of a burning leaf (with a lighter) ..after a bit of practice, it is possible to tell if different samples are likely to contain alkaloids this way..the 'leaf-burning test'..
.
 
robertus-spagyricus
#232 Posted : 1/5/2012 2:57:47 AM

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..very familiar with the 'burn test', though still think it's unreliable.

I just acquired some small cuttings of Phlebophylla, and notice no smell on burning, the leaf or the bark. But, I may be wrong.

It comes from quite an established tree also.

More to the point, currently - I am about to prepare a cloning procedure using the cuttings I have.

Nen - do you have any particular advice about attempting such a thing?

I'll explain what I am to do, any comments are appreciated.

In short -

a) Each cutting is 10-20cm tall and is from a lateral branch of a main stem. I am going to diagonally cut each stem, leaving a 'tail', just below an internotch, exposing as much vascular tissue as possible. I'll try and keep foliage to a minumum, perhaps 1-2 phyllodes each cutting.

b) I will then dip each end in IBA gel and acetone (3:2), from Rootex or Clonex purple gel. dip for half a minute or so, let dry for half a minute or so, then plant in a small seedling pot.

c) I was going to use normal potting soil but may move to a more complex vermiculite, sand, peat combo. This has a lot of good info http://anpsa.org.au/APOL2008/jun08-1.html

d) I'll then place each cutting, perhaps a couple to each pot, or singular, in a makeshift greenhouse - a large laundry basket covered in white plastic with water bowls inside and a heat pad underneath - keeping it at about 20 degrees. I will spray it often to keep it humidified.

e) I'll then try and keep it alive for 2 months or so - hopefully they sprout! I have about 8.

What do you think?
 
nen888
#233 Posted : 1/5/2012 7:05:31 AM
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^re cuttings..the only successful cuttings of acacias i know of were done in lab 'tissue culture' conditions..
i would suggest use which ever rooting 'hormone' is more indole-acetic-acid based, and apply a fair amount..
also, i would suggest a peat/fine sand mixture (15:85), and (if you can find some) crushed rhyzobium nodes (tiny balls) from the root of a healthy tree..
this will promote pro-biotics, as microbial contamination would be one of the main hurdles..the mini hot-house is also a good idea..

ps. re 'burning test' i refer more to an acridness of smoke than to a particular smell..
 
robertus-spagyricus
#234 Posted : 1/5/2012 7:49:42 AM

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Now you mention it, I guess I was looking for the bolder smell of skatole, whereas in fact there are a horizon of different fragrances to each bark, and this bark does have a very subtle acridness.

The link I posted suggests that clones of acacias are quite possible in the method I and the writer describes, and also these guys http://www.shaman-austra...utting&fromsearch=1 seem to be getting results. So far that is with Obtusifolia, so it remains to be seen if it can be done with Phleb, which as you've written might be more difficult due to alpine climate requirements. Not sure if that will make a difference but I guess I'll find out.

Hmm, only learnt about these rooting hormones today (quite recent!) so I don't understand the difference between indole-3-butyric acid and indole-acetic-acid, why would you suggest the latter? In the end I mixed 3:2 IBA 3g/1l to Acetone and dipped each cutting in for about 40 seconds, then 40 to evaporate the acetone, then planted. What amount would you suggest?

That's a very specific ratio of peat and sand, in the end I used a Propogating Blend, Hardware store woman advised it for Acacia cuttings. Perhaps I shall look into the Peat/Sand combo specifically.

Rhyzobium Nodes sound bizarre, will look into it!

I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge base which is evidently extremely well cultivated in this field. Good show!
 
nen888
#235 Posted : 1/5/2012 8:17:40 AM
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..indole acetic acid is naturally found in many acacia roots (it's own root growth hormone) and is a natural pre-cursor to tryptamines..

..as a for rhyzobial (Rhyzobium) nodes, these are colonies of symbiotic nitrogen-fixing bacteria living in the roots..they provide nitrogen from the air to the soil and plant directly, in exchange for sugars from the plant..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhizobium
..very healthy acacia trees will usually have some of these small ball-nodes on the roots..it is possible to dig a bit and collect a few without damaging the root system or harming tree..when added to acacia seedling potting mix such bacteria will greatly boost growth rates and health..

good luck to you and cuttings..

.
 
nen888
#236 Posted : 1/7/2012 8:54:04 AM
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..one of the more 'mesquite' (see#228 above) looking acacias is the african Acacia senegal (the leaves of which have been found to contain DMT)
below are two pictures to help with identification..the pods and flowers are slightly different to mesquite..
nen888 attached the following image(s):
Acacia_senegal flower.jpg (105kb) downloaded 998 time(s).
Acacia senega pods.jpg (327kb) downloaded 1,000 time(s).
 
wira
#237 Posted : 1/7/2012 2:48:29 PM

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Interesting results from acuminata! Interestingly, someone told me the other day that they get mild psychedelic effects from just chewing the fresh phyllodes. Perhaps the high tetrahydroharman content in some samples explains this.

Re: the Eucalyptus, that was from one of Appleseed's old TLC analyses of a tree prominent in California. I did quiz Trout about this more recently, and I didn't write it down so I'll have to check to be sure, but it was apparently the only prominent Eucalyptus growing in this area, which immediately narrowed it down to E. globulus once I checked up on the introduced plants of that area. So, if someone wants to do a better analysis on that, it's hardly an uncommon species!
 
Gowpen
#238 Posted : 1/8/2012 10:12:00 AM

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nen888 wrote:
..there is some evidence of tryptamines in a few acacia pods, needs more investigation..in cultivation pruning a branch every few years is the least harmful thing to do to a tree..often in the wild storms will cause individual branches to drop..hacking the main trunk or root bark is what destroys them...

I'v just finished some test extractions on a huge acacia podalyriifolia, Old dried seed pods=Nothing, Fresh leaves had something (yellowish hard to scrape goo,)but I need to do more leaves to be sure. I have salted the batch and have left for 2 days, Doing a naptha Ex as i speak/type. Next I will try the bark, both from a huge branch that needs trimming and I will also dig down to retrieve a small amout of root bark. That will be next weeks mission.
Are there any reports of the best time of year to harvest, in flower or not etc?
Regards Oz
Gowpen attached the following image(s):
IMG_0191.JPG (2,317kb) downloaded 1,104 time(s).
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nen888
#239 Posted : 1/9/2012 9:02:57 AM
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..thanks for the report Iain1, in acacia podalyriifolia there are findings of tryptamine (1 study) and dmt in another, plus a few negatives..

thanks also wira for that info..the leaves are orally active to an extent...
 
Gowpen
#240 Posted : 1/9/2012 11:55:12 AM

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nen888 wrote:
..thanks for the report Iain1, in acacia podalyriifolia there are findings of tryptamine (1 study) and dmt in another, plus a few negatives..

thanks also wira for that info..the leaves are orally active to an extent...

Thanks so much for that, I will keep going and do some seasonal tests to compliment my own findings.

One can never cross the ocean without the Courage to lose sight of the shore
 
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