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Making Homeopathic remedies from psychedelics to help mental disorders Options
 
Jorkest
#21 Posted : 12/22/2008 7:08:09 PM

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the second paragraph of Wiki

"Claims to the efficacy of homeopathic treatment beyond the placebo effect are unsupported by the collective weight of scientific and clinical evidence.[4][5][6][7] Common homeopathic preparations are often indistinguishable from the pure diluent because the purported medicinal compound is diluted beyond the point where there is any likelihood that molecules from the original solution are present in the final product;[8] the claim that these treatments still have any pharmacological effect is thus scientifically implausible[9][10] and violates fundamental principles of science,[11] including the law of mass action.[11] Critics also object that the number of high-quality studies that support homeopathy is small, the conclusions are not definitive, and duplication of the results, a key test of scientific validity, has proven problematic at best.[12] The lack of convincing scientific evidence supporting its efficacy[13] and its use of remedies without active ingredients have caused homeopathy to be regarded as pseudoscience[14] or quackery.[15]"
it's a sound
 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
Jorkest
#22 Posted : 12/22/2008 7:09:03 PM

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but they WORK
it's a sound
 
burnt
#23 Posted : 12/22/2008 7:09:09 PM

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Ok but then there must be some biologically active substances in the remedy. Who is doing the testing of these remedies? No one. So you don't really know whats in them. I bet if you take 10 or 20 random homeopathic rememdies made by the water dilution method and you will find something in them. Otherwise its just water. Also people who make them can spike them with whatever they want and who would know the difference? No one.

This is another issue with this kind of medicine is that its virtually unregulated. Which in some cases is good. And listen man I understand that it worked for you and that it does work for people I am not denying that. But to really prove how its working and that it is doing something to your body beyond just a simple placebo effect two important criteria need to be met. One whatever is in the remedy must be known meaning all detecable compounds. Two it must be compared to a real placebo. That can turn this from pseudoscience and quackery into a real discipline.
 
Jorkest
#24 Posted : 12/22/2008 7:11:30 PM

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"Common homeopathic preparations are often indistinguishable from the pure diluent because the purported medicinal compound is diluted beyond the point where there is any likelihood that molecules from the original solution are present in the final product"
it's a sound
 
burnt
#25 Posted : 12/22/2008 7:12:42 PM

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Hehe man I read that and I understand the idea. Buuuuuuuuuuut whos doing the testing of this stuff? And how dilute is too dilute. If people don't even know how a plant medicine works how can they claim to know how dilute it has to be to work? Like I also said more of a substance also doesn't always mean better effect. Also synergy is another factor.

I gotta get going but I want to get back to this because as much as I get on peoples case about whats quackery and whats really doing something it does interest me because its important in my field of work to make these distinctions especially when studying traditional herbal medications.

But if you want can you please come up with a clear example lets do the one that you were healed by. What was the homeopathic remedy your parents gave you?
 
Jorkest
#26 Posted : 12/22/2008 7:13:54 PM

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there have been thousands of studies done..i am a homeopathic practitioner..and have used the medicine my whole life..there is a science to it..seriously...its the only medicine i use..because its cheap and it works..and its safe
it's a sound
 
burnt
#27 Posted : 12/22/2008 7:16:53 PM

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Cool well i think we should talk more about this. I only use plant based medicines unless I am seriously sick and need to get rid of some bacterial infection which rarely ever happens. I don't want to critisize you I want to know what your are doing and understand more because I do find it interesting.

Can you please provide me a clear example of a typical homeopathic treatment? I know it varies between people and the condition in question but I would appreciate it if you could think up some scenario.
 
Jorkest
#28 Posted : 12/22/2008 7:18:18 PM

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Spongia Tosta
it's a sound
 
burnt
#29 Posted : 12/22/2008 7:21:27 PM

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I should also say I was lumping homeopathic medicine into similar category as herbal medicine and the two are clearly different from what you are saying. I didn't think of it like that. I will look up the Spongia Tosta thing and get back to you it might take me a few days.
 
Jorkest
#30 Posted : 12/22/2008 7:35:36 PM

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ok so say your patient has a sore throat..you want to find out how it feels..whether its scratchy and rough..or itchy whatever..

you want to find out if its on a certain side of the throat..you want to find out if they are sleeping well..if they are whiny and complain..or if they are hyperactive

you want to find out how the person feels emotionally and mentally because those are the symptoms that you want to treat..its like if you can get the emotion symptoms identified and treat those...its like a chain reaction that goes through your energy bodies and then heals the physical..

you want to find out what kind of person they are...you treat the person as a whole and not just the one symptom..because they physical symptom is just that..its a SIGN telling you something is wrong...and the best way to get a message across to your consciousness is to create a physical sign telling you if you wont listen to your emotions...but once you treat the emotions of the person it then clears up the physical signs...

and most of the time the same remedy will cure multiple problems for a person..so you find out what type of person they are..and you treat that..not just the physical symptom..that is secondary..

so say me...the homeopathic that cures just about anything that i get is Nux vomica...it will cure sore throats..colds..back aches..constipation..earache..flu..indigestion..insomnia..



Nux vomica is for the self-indulgent workaholics. They overdo everything, they work too hard, stay out too late, take no exercise, eat too much, drink to much..usually a drug user of some kind..they are impulsive..impatient..

so once you find out the type of person the patient is..you can treat them with a narrowed down list of homeopathic remedies..and once you find one that clicks with the person..you can usually use that one again to cure them of many other problems..but sometimes it takes some trial and error..but its ok because they are extremely safe to use
it's a sound
 
Jorkest
#31 Posted : 12/22/2008 7:41:07 PM

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so then once you find one that clicks with them..you have them use it a few times a day..not around meals..and no other strong medicines..because these actually cancel out the homeopathics..you have them use it until they notice a change in the symptom..and usually it gets worse before it gets better..and as soon as a change happens you stop taking the medicine and usually if you got the right medicine it will clear up the problem very quickly...
it's a sound
 
burnt
#32 Posted : 12/22/2008 7:56:48 PM

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Thanks for giving me a more clear picture. I am just very skeptical that water with nothing in it can do anything for I think valid reasons and I didn't mean to slam your entire practice just that aspect didn't make sense to me. So I do apologize if I sounded harsh (I always do Razz )

Anyway..

Quote:
you want to find out what kind of person they are...you treat the person as a whole and not just the one symptom..because they physical symptom is just that..its a SIGN telling you something is wrong...and the best way to get a message across to your consciousness is to create a physical sign telling you if you wont listen to your emotions...but once you treat the emotions of the person it then clears up the physical signs...

and most of the time the same remedy will cure multiple problems for a person..so you find out what type of person they are..and you treat that..not just the physical symptom..that is secondary..


I agree that often a physical symptom is a manifestation of some other underlying condition. Stress clearly causes certain diseases for example.

Now about nux vomica that is a toxic plant normally its got a number of strong alkaloids that can be toxic hence the name Pleased So for you when you take it you dilute it by the method you discussed earlier? But now my first assumption would be that you are taking a very very low dose of these compounds and they are exerting some effect somewhere on something in your body (im going to ignore the placebo effect on this). Now how many dilutions would you normally do for example? Do you use the plant on a daily basis? The reason I ask is because I do think there are biologically active compounds in that mixture and although they are dilute thats a good thing! Because they are toxic at higher doses. Thats what I am curious about. I find it hard to believe that its so dilute that nothing is left. These are potent alkaloids hence why they are dangerous they must be diluted to be safe.

Now also I do think these things vary from person to person for reasons I think are clear and that this form of medicine is highly well personal.

But like lets say you got a bacterial infection in your upper respiratory system. How would you go about treating it for yourself?

I will also share a personal example of taking what I thought was a homeopathic approach to a problem (although maybe it would be considered an herbal remedy I dunno). I had really bad acne for a long time none of the shit doctors gave me worked infact it all made it worse. So I had been moving around and I realized where I was living when my condition got worse I was eating lots of yellow cheese. So i stopped eating it and my skin cleared up. Also at the same time i started steaming my skin with herbal steam baths and that also helped my skin drastically. So I think it was a combination of a dietary change and occasional dosing my face with essential oils and steaming that cleaned it up and it cost me basically nothing. But now there are perfectly valid reasons why this worked. One yellow cheese is doing something to my body to make my skin bad. I don't know what but it was definately correlated. Also the essential oils in the plants kill bacteria and also do beneficial things to your skin at low doses. One time I used a pure essential oil and I got really sick feeling and a huge splitting head ache because I inhaled too much essential oils. So low dose was key. Anyway that worked but I don't consider it a placebo because there are things happening and I was doing things differently. I was not just drinking water with nothing in it thats why I am confused I don't think the water has nothing in it.
 
Jorkest
#33 Posted : 12/22/2008 8:06:52 PM

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so usually i use 30c remedies..ok now 1x is a 1 to 10 ratio...2x is a 1 to a 100 ratio

30c is a 60x which is 10 raised to the 60 so its a dillution factor of 1:10^60


30c
"Dilution advocated by Hahnemann for most purposes: this would require giving two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient."
it's a sound
 
Jorkest
#34 Posted : 12/22/2008 8:09:40 PM

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"Coverage in the mainstream press

The BBC's Horizon and ABC's 20/20 broadcast programs described scientific testing of homeopathic dilutions that were unable to differentiate these dilutions from water."
it's a sound
 
Jorkest
#35 Posted : 12/22/2008 8:11:08 PM

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"Provings

In order to determine which specific remedies could be used to treat which diseases, Hahnemann experimented on himself and others for several years, before using remedies on patients. His experiments did not initially consist of giving remedies to the sick, because he thought that the most similar remedy, by virtue of its ability to induce symptoms similar to the disease itself, would make it impossible to determine which symptoms came from the remedy and which from the disease itself. Therefore, sick people were excluded from these experiments. The method used for determining which remedies were suitable for specific diseases was called "proving", after the original German word "Prüfung", meaning "test". A homeopathic proving is the method by which the profile of a homeopathic remedy is determined.[86]

During the process of proving, Hahnemann used healthy volunteers who were given remedies, often in molecular doses, although he later advocated proving with remedies at a 30C dilution,[72] and the resulting symptoms were compiled by observers into a "Drug Picture". During the process the volunteers were observed for months at a time and were made to keep extensive journals detailing all of their symptoms at specific times during the day. During the tests volunteers were forbidden from consuming coffee, tea, spices, or wine. They were also not allowed to play chess, because Hahnemann considered it to be "too exciting", though they were allowed to drink beer and were encouraged to moderately exercise. After the experiments were over, Hahnemann made the volunteers offer their hands and take an oath swearing that what they reported in their journals was the truth, at which time he would interrogate them extensively concerning their symptoms.

Provings have been described as important in the development of the clinical trial, due to their early use of simple control groups, systematic and quantitative procedures, and some of the first application of statistics in medicine.[87] The lengthy records of self-experimentation by homeopaths have occasionally proven useful in the development of modern drugs: For example, evidence nitroglycerin might be useful as a treatment for angina was discovered by looking through homeopathic provings, though homeopaths themselves never used it for that purpose at that time.[88] The first recorded provings were published by Hahnemann in his 1796 Essay on a new principle. His Fragmenta de viribus (1805)[89] contained the results of 27 provings, and his 1810 Materia Medica Pura contained 65.[90] For James Tyler Kent's 1905 Lectures on Homoeopathic Materia Medica, 217 remedies underwent provings and newer substances are continually added to contemporary versions."

from wikipedia
it's a sound
 
Jorkest
#36 Posted : 12/22/2008 8:14:56 PM

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and i consider essential oils herbal medicine..because its a plant oil..and molecules of it are actually entering the body
it's a sound
 
Jorkest
#37 Posted : 12/22/2008 8:18:12 PM

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High dilutions

The extremely high dilutions in homeopathy have been a main point of criticism. Homeopaths believe that the methodical dilution of a substance, beginning with a 10% or lower solution and working downwards, with shaking after each dilution, produces a therapeutically active "remedy", in contrast to therapeutically inert water. However, homeopathic remedies are usually diluted to the point where there are no molecules from the original solution left in a dose of the final remedy.[110] Since even the longest-lived noncovalent structures in liquid water at room temperature are only stable for a few picoseconds,[117] critics have concluded that any effect that might have been present from the original substance can no longer exist.[118] Furthermore, since water will have been in contact with millions of different substances throughout its history, critics point out that any glass of water is therefore an extreme dilution of almost any conceivable substance, and so by drinking water one would, according to homeopathic principles, receive treatment for every imaginable condition.[119]"

notice how water is the cure all...and it is...it supports all life that we know of

"Practitioners of homeopathy contend that higher dilutions (fewer potential molecules in each dose) result in stronger medicinal effects. This idea is inconsistent with the observed dose-response relationships of conventional drugs, where the effects are dependent on the concentration of the active ingredient in the body.[111] This dose-response relationship has been confirmed in multitudinous experiments on organisms as diverse as nematodes,[120] rats,[121] and humans.[122]"
it's a sound
 
Jorkest
#38 Posted : 12/22/2008 8:20:36 PM

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"Physicist Robert L. Park, former executive director of the American Physical Society, has noted that
“ since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth.[123] ”

Park has also noted that "to expect to get even one molecule of the 'medicinal' substance allegedly present in 30X pills, it would be necessary to take some two billion of them, which would total about a thousand tons of lactose plus whatever impurities the lactose contained". The laws of chemistry state that there is a limit to the dilution that can be made without losing the original substance altogether.[10] This limit, which is related to Avogadro's number, is roughly equal to homeopathic potencies of 12C or 24X (1 part in 1024)"
it's a sound
 
Nanaki
#39 Posted : 12/22/2008 11:52:40 PM

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This is really fascinating. Hadn't heard of this before.

What homeopathic could I take daily to get the creative juices flowing when I'm drawing or writing?
Nanaki, of course is a fictional video game character. He never does drugs that would alter consciousness. He only thinks he does.
 
Jorkest
#40 Posted : 12/23/2008 1:32:05 AM

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its not something that you can take daily..its more of a way to balance an imbalance..im not sure if you can use it to cause an effect like you would taking a drug..

in a sense its a way of sending your body instructions on how to heal itself..but perhaps not being able to be creative is a symptom of a deeper problem
it's a sound
 
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