hey, I wanted to start a thread about peoples experiences with entheogens as a group. I had ayaahuasca in mind, but other's are good also.. I am particularily interested in peoples experiences drinking ayahuasca in healing circles, on a more or less regular basis, as I believe many folk in areas such as iquitos do, or as in the instance of the UDV or Diame.

I have never drank aya with other ppl, mostly cus i cant find anyone willing to do the diet and take on the experience. Its seems many ppl are afraid of this one..I know a lady that had LOTS of experience with LSD and psilocybin, like never less than 7 grams of mushrooms, and usually 10-20 hits liquid.She is a healer and card reader for a living..and she said that she'd NEVER drink aya..

While I have never gone over the edge or found aya scary(maybe a bit jittery), I havent drank in large doses yet..only probabily like 30 grams cappi and 3-5 grams chali maybe 8 times. I have had very realistic visions with the brew of strange places and cities, and light fractal geomety, but these happened on the verge of sleep(I like to drink at night when i am tired and lay in bed, or very early in the morning).

Even with these low doses I feel that I am gaining something on a physical and psychological level, and wish to continue working with this medicine slowly, not pushing or rushing myself to get anywhere quickly..I have had so many intense breakthrough entheogenic experiences in my life, i am starting to think that i should just not expect anything immediate of aya and look at it as more of a journey..

I feel that this is probabily the ideal entheogen for me to use right now(along with a few others) and one that I will work with on a regualr basis(every 2 weeks) for the rest of my life. I was sick for a while and jsut found out that I have so many food allergies its rediculous. My naturalpath has me on a very strict, organic diet that is perfect for aya, and i am allergic to mushrooms too so cant use them nearly as often as i have been(unless i extract)..so the yage seems perfect. I really want to find a group of people to have these experiences with..thats why I would like to hear others experiences with the UDV and such, and especially peoples amazon experiences, as I hope to begin a go-to-peru fund soon.

I ALWAYS do entheogens with a group.

Do you have a close group of ppl you usually dream with? do you find it is more healing/theraputic that way??

i used to always eat mushrooms with a group of 3 other friends I had..but they dont really trip anymore. They just smoke excessive ammounts of pot, and drink,eat very unhealthily, and eventually seemed to forget all that the stuff we had discovered and ideals we had back then. Evidentily we have lost contact for the most part

Sometimes that happens... I find myself "converting" alot of people... I think that's a horrible word for it tho.

Perhaps... "Showing them the way"?

yes, i dont want to convert ppl persay, but I tend to meet people here and there that seem interested and I feel would definatily benifit from aya and other entheogens..but I also find alot of ppl lately comming to me wanting to experience salvia cus they know I grow it or heard ive worked with it lots, and I totally want to go have an experience with them, but at the same time fear they just want some new crazy experience to laugh about at the bar..or they dont want to put in the time to bother to prepare for aya/wont go out into the bush with me and give the experience the time its worth..

also what about music, do you guys play in circles durring any trips..that was one of my favorite things about group tripping, my freind would bring all of his guitar petals and effects boxes, and id grab my drums and flutes and we'd all play while the girl of the group would sit and listen and draw beautiful art..it was so magical..lately all of my trips have been solo, sort of mckenna style..

yes Ive had several group experiences already, with ayahuasca in santo daime, or also in indigenous rituals from the amazon..

It is an incredible drink to work with.. It really humbles you.

There were already rituals where I started too 'cocky', thinking I somehow had it 'under control', and obviously lady aya put me on my knees, trembling and making me experience humbleness with all of my soul

In other times I got full confidence and power like I couldnt have imagined before.

The group does influence a lot on the trip. I've had rituals where everybody was fully concentrated and the shaman was doing his incredible singing in the forest and everything fit just in the exact place, loads of learning and visions, "telepathic" experiences, etc..
Then there were other times were the group was quite unfocused, people standing up and moving, talking too much and so on, and it really disrupted my trip and prevented me from going deep (and everyone else)

I like to enjoy these medicines in private, or in a small informal, no-leader group of close friends, or also in bigger ayahuasca groups as long as the people 'work' together and the shaman/pajé is a good one.. Each situation has its own advantages and disadvantages, but they are wonderful tools in the right context and time

If there is any specific question you want to know, feel free to ask

My personal background in this city wouldn't have the sort of lot to connect with on an entheogenic level either, maybe a handful at most. I had one group session when I was visiting a family friend in Hawaii during a round trip after I graduated, which she had earlier practice with traditional ayahuasca settings in Peru. She was struggling to help me with my own past, but insisted that "No shaman can heal you, you can only heal yourself." There were about five others with us and my girlfriend at the time sharing that session and it was very open. It was really hard to believe that "She was in your mind, to heal", but they were all bearing similar insights that I couldn't let that pass me... Then came the flash.

I agree, a group session can be a very rewarding influence, but I do feel that aya finds us to work on a personal level more so.

Timeless...what is the content of the diame ceremonies like??Not sure how deep the christiany focus goes.. I read both of Daniel Pinchbecks books, and at first he was reluctant to keep drinkning with them..but later changed his mind on their methods and continued with them..

In youre experience, do they still hold a strong shamanistic vibe within the ceremony..do you have lots of time and space to go deep and really dream? I have heard some reports of ppl not enjoying the diame so much beacuse they had to manage their trip sitting in chairs in a room with many other ppl, sort of like a sermon..

i dont really know much yet about the UDV so I will have to do some research there..but did you enjoy the experiences with just a small group and shaman, over that of the diame??

The daime ceremonies are divided mostly in two types.. Concentração (concentration) and bailado (dancing). The first one happens every 15th and 30th of each month, and you spend all the time sitting down, basically. You can go to the bathroom if you want, but should go back to your seat as soon as possible. There are generally 3 doses served during the ritual, with a considerable time in between each. Basically during the whole ritual it keeps alternating moments of pure silence, and singing and playing of the hymns. There is no 'sermon' such as in churches. The message is passed through the hymns, which talk about spiritual evolution, the 'mistery' of existence, the forest and helper spirits, ayahuasca, but also about jesus and other incorporated catholic figures. Some of the hymns are very very beautiful, others not really.

During the bailado rituals which happen in different dates, you spend the whole ritual dancing in a pre-determined manner, everybody together, and singing.

I have my criticism towards daime.. For example, even though the hymns can be nice, I generally dont like to listen to anything with lyrics during an experience. I go so much beyond words and usual thought patterns that words from singing 'hold me down' somehow... With the icaros of indigenous people its totally different, its not about the words but about the sound patterns and vibrations that bring specific visions, I enjoy it much much much more.

Another thing I dont like in daime is the feeling I got from many 'daimistas' that they are always trying to 'convert' you. I want people to respect each other's ideas, not try to force their own, even more if they are entheogen-related people. It sometimes gives this impression of a cult. I do know some important exceptions, though, like 2 very good friends of mine that are fully respectful (but appart from being in daime they also participate in indigenous rituals, so dont know if thats a coincidence or if daime-only people are more fanatic than the ones who are a part of it but are also part of other entheogen 'sub-cultures'

Another thing I dont like in daime is that, also because its too big, they have to 'control' things. So for example, in a ritual, they have certain members who's job is to look out if everything is running as it should. I dont like having a 'supervisor' or 'guard' type of person looking around when im tripping. Once there was a situation where I was standing up in a corner during the concentration ritual, because I was about to vomit, and one of these members came to tell me to sit down, that I shouldnt be there. I briefly answered I was about to vomit and if he could leave me alone.

I understand they need a certain control, otherwise in the bigger churches (where maybe 200ppl are taking ayahuasca at the same time), if everybody decided to do something different, it would get out of control, so they need to keep things reasonably organized.. but IF they decide to watch out if everything is going right, then at least they should have the sensitivity of why people are doing what they are and being flexible in their organization, instead of just wanting to eliminate everything that is not exactly like their plans.

One last thing I have to criticise about daime is the fact that the members wear a totally tidy uniform (some special pants, a white shirt and a star in the chest). Maybe its my personal ideas but I really dislike uniforms and what they represent. It gives people a certain sense of identity that they belong to a group, which sometimes may be good, but it also distances the group from anyone outside of it. It is quite clear to me that there is a certain 'superiority' sense in many daimistas in relation to those that dont have the uniform.

In any case, some people really feel good with daime, others not. Everytime I take ayahuasca I have an amazing experience, but I wont be going to their rituals anymore. As for being shamanistic, well, some songs talk about it, and the fact that its ayahuasca makes it somehow shamanistic, but no, it lost the major touch of shamanism. There is a very strong influence of european occultism too, as well as african beliefs and christianity too, so the shamanic part does not appear so obviously. But yeah if you can deal with the lyrics and the rules, you can go deep. Some people can only go deep with this kind of order. I cant.

The indigenous rituals, on the other hand, are much more open. The natives are much more easy going, they trust that people will do the best (so they are not checking whether you are taking too long outside the circle or something, you should decide that for yourself). The chants are sooo beautiful, and if you have a propper pajé (thats the name of the 'shamans' in secret language.. they dont really use this word shaman), then it is the most incredible experience, you really feel the power of the whole situation. They are not just fancy trip sitters and its not just about westerners idealizing shamans (even though this does happen sometimes). They really do have a special effect and control of the whole experience. Having participated with different pajés, I see how much each one can influence totally differently the ritual.

Also the group in each ritual influences a lot the trip, as I said before. There is really some sort of 'chain' that unites the participants during an ayahuasca ritual. There were times where, for example, someone else was vomitting and I could hear the person, and it was as if my soul flew from my body and went with the person, as if I was also there with the person giving this person strenght during his/her own purge. Or as if I felt the 'sins' of the person that was purging. Or once when I was purging in a particular ritual, it really felt like the whole group was there giving me the support. I even saw a person in the side of my vision, standing next to me, that I was sure was real, but when I looked, there was nobody there.

There's some crazy stuff that happens in these rituals. It really feels like magic sometimes, you know, like lord of the rings/harry potter/indigenous myths, with all sorts of weird stuff happening around.

and as for UDV Ive never been, but I have met a couple of ppl from it. They are much less explicit than santo daime, they dont stand out so much, they seem much more quiet about their business. The rituals are a bit different, and there is a highly hierarchical system, where you rise in rank gradually as you participate in more rituals and memorize certain knowledge and 'stories' they pass to the initiates. I cant say much as Ive never been there.

I think that may be a little too structured for me.

We always have a big fire in the clearing of the woods, people can sit by the fire or go back into the darkness near the tents to be alone and sit or lie down in comtemplation.

People who are around the fire may just sit, or sometimes we dance, "fire jump" (leaping over the fire without being burned), we are mostly always at least semi-naked if it's warm out and use a blue or red body paint to paint ourselves as we're coming up.

We make music using drums, digeridoos, guitars, ocarinas, whatever we can find...

Make sure you've got a ton of wood before you take your dose, or the fire won't last long, collecting wood while tripping is not fun.

thanx for clarifying that up for me timeless. I dont think Ihave any inclination to participate in a Diame or UDV ceremony. Im not to big on ranks or imposed structure, especially while on a trip.

Coatl, youre ceremony sounds fun , reminds me of camping out at the beach durring the summer, and eating mushrooms around a bonfire with groups of ppl jamming and chilling in hammocks..that way if I go to far and freak out, i can just run off into the bush