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Several Small Extractions are Better than One Big One & Ratios Options
 
DMTerrestrial
#1 Posted : 11/9/2011 11:24:31 PM

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As for now I'm restricted to posting in the Nursery. Hopefully this post will generate good information exchange. Also if there is a better place for this post, I'm asking The Traveler or any other site mods, to place in the best section possible.

The following is some literature I came across in the PDF file "Organic Chemistry Laboratory Survival Manual-Zubrick-2nd Ed" Yes this book/PDF is from the late 80's but the information still holds true for today. Thought I'd share it. Yes we know to pull until you can't pull anymore, but from what I'm gathering, the more small pulls you do gives you more final product using less solvent. Obviously you will still need to use enough solvent to make the process manageable. The following doesn't touch on size of starting material (100g vs 1kg), just the size of the pulls. So my question is...Do you also save solvent doing Smaller Starting Batches vs. Huge Ones.... with Several Small Pulls vs. Few Large Pulls? (100g vs 1kg)

Now onto ratios.
I've read that a good rule of thumb for ratios is for every gram of MHRB you will mix 1ml/1g/15ml (Naphtha/NaOH/H2O)
I also read that adding more NaHO helps the spice become more available for extraction, giving better yields with less solvent/pulls.
I read that using less H2O also helps with yields, allowing more of the spice to come in contact with the solvent.
Finally I read that heating your MHRB/NaHO/H2O/Solvent solution allows for the solvent to become super-saturated,increasing the solubility of spice in the same amount of solvent. (This also means that you will have more impurities in your final product, but all this can be cleaned up with your favorite purification procedures.)

So one must ask themselves... Will a heated solution with a ratio for every gram of MHRB to 0.5ml/2g/7.5ml (Naphtha/NaOH/H2O) with several small pulls be one of the best ways get maximum yield with minimal solvent? Now of course these are rough numbers just used for an example. If anyone has experience in this area let me know your finding please.



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DMTerrestrial
#2 Posted : 11/11/2011 3:03:44 AM

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24 Hours and no response =(

Somebody must have something to chime in about.
I can think of nothing more important for the survival of our species and those we live with then for us all to have access to the psychedelic experience.
 
OGB
#3 Posted : 11/11/2011 11:27:17 AM

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I dont think if doing more pulls will change something. In theory its true that changing the solvent more often in short time intervals favours the extraction process, but i think that in such small scale extractions the difference will be minimal.

The next time you do an extraction... just do it in different containers and compare the methods you stated above.

Also Im putting just 4g NaOH / 100ml H2O (for a STB) Its sufficient to make the solution pH 14... and for me it works just fine.
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endlessness
#4 Posted : 11/11/2011 11:54:13 AM

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DMTerrestrial, please be patient! Its only been 24 hours

I dont know if this is maybe a sign of a characteristic specially of new generations, but more and more we see people coming here and complaining or being dissapointed if within a few hours people dont answer. It's like a widespread immediatism, where everything has to come at the very instant or it's a problem. Maybe this is a social phenomenon that is reinforced by the speed of telecommunications and the gradual dissapearance of many long-term human endeavors, people from the day they are born nowadays are exposed to flashing fast-paced information and very little learning of patience and controlled development. (Not judging you, btw just making general observations)

Maybe people who are interested havent logged in during the hours after you posted and might in some more hours. Or maybe people just arent interested at all, and this is something we just have to accept, even us mods or senior members have made threads before with no responses... There is of course the chance people who might be interested didnt see, but give it a week, or two, and then maybe bump your thread once.. Imagine if every single person that didnt get an answer in some hours would bump their threads/posts, the forum would be a mess of content-less posts of attempts to get attention.

I hope you understand this is meant as a constructive criticism, and an opportunity I felt to comment on something i noticed recently, def not an attack to you.


Now after this long detour, back to the topic: You are very right and I have seen this in practice myself! In fact, this was in the FAQ. The more saturated a solvent is, the less a substance will move to it. Like if you try to get into an elevator packed with people, maybe the first person that went in could go in fast because there was plenty of space, but the more people, the harder it is for them to move into the elevator, even if there is still theoretically space inside. Or think of when washing clothes (the example given in the FAQ), or very dirty dishes, where one will do one wash to get rid of most stuff, but then rinse and wash it again (or the washing machine has many cycles instead of just one long one), because there is always some dirt left behind.

Its not for nothing that ALL teks in this forum talk about 3 (or sometimes more) pulls, it comes from practical experience of many many years and different people.

Thanks for the explanation, I have added a link to this thread in the mentioned FAQ entry
 
damon
#5 Posted : 11/11/2011 3:17:18 PM

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200g NaOH in 750ml would be way more than needed. 100g is plenty. And 750mL is a good number too, it works for me every time. You can use plain old salt to mess with the polarity, it is cheaper and safer than NaOH, to achieve the same result because NaOH won't make the PH any higher than 14.

And then 50mL seems like too little. If you don't mind evaporating some solvent, it doesn't hurt to use more. I might use 50mL for one pull, but I tend to use too much, I just want to make sure I get it all. I might use as much as 200mL, over 4 pulls, but 3 is usually enough. For a really big batch, you can use small amounts over 5 or 6 pulls. I haven't found the volume of solvent to be that important, you just need to use enough of it to get all the spice out. I also prefer to use FASA or FASW on limo over freezing naptha, so the volume doesn't matter as much. The amount of agitation matters too, I don't like to agitate too much because with lower volumes of water it will be sludgy and it will trap solvent. You would ideally roll the container around, not shake it.
 
DMTerrestrial
#6 Posted : 11/11/2011 5:38:34 PM

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OGB wrote:
I dont think if doing more pulls will change something. In theory its true that changing the solvent more often in short time intervals favours the extraction process, but i think that in such small scale extractions the difference will be minimal.

The next time you do an extraction... just do it in different containers and compare the methods you stated above.

Also Im putting just 4g NaOH / 100ml H2O (for a STB) Its sufficient to make the solution pH 14... and for me it works just fine.


For how much MHRB?

You make a very valid point Endlessness, and I'm happy you have made me aware of the situation, no hard feeling. Thank you for pointing me to the FAQ, it's been months since I signed up and just now began posting. FAQ slipped my mind, this will help me from posting redundant topics, which I believe was mentioned in the rules. So my apologies. Also thank you for siting this page in the FAQ, it makes me as if feel I have helped add to the community.

Any thoughts on heating the solution to get the solvent super saturated. In theory it seems to be a good idea, but is it recommended?

Thank you fellow Terrestrial.
I can think of nothing more important for the survival of our species and those we live with then for us all to have access to the psychedelic experience.
 
billydgator
#7 Posted : 11/12/2011 1:14:25 AM

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Several smaller extractions? like... If i extracted 1kg at once i would get 14g of spice, but if i split it into 4 250g extractions i could get more than 14g? What about a 10kg extraction compared to 4 2.5 kg extractions?
I dont think it makes a difference if you use the right technique when doings your pulls. 4 masses have more surface area than 1 so when your solvent contacts the mixture it may saturate quicker, resulting in more yeild in your intial pulls. As far as how much solvent to use, id say it could differ with each pull. if your solvent wasnt as saturated as previous pulls with the same mixing technique and temperature, you may not need as much on the next one.
 
endlessness
#8 Posted : 11/12/2011 9:15:17 AM

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No no, more like: Several pulls (and/or several acidic boils in plant material for those doing A/Bs) instead of just one
 
Eaglepath
#9 Posted : 10/6/2017 11:11:04 AM

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endlessness wrote:
DMTerrestrial, please be patient! Its only been 24 hours

I dont know if this is maybe a sign of a characteristic specially of new generations, but more and more we see people coming here and complaining or being dissapointed if within a few hours people dont answer. It's like a widespread immediatism, where everything has to come at the very instant or it's a problem. Maybe this is a social phenomenon that is reinforced by the speed of telecommunications and the gradual dissapearance of many long-term human endeavors, people from the day they are born nowadays are exposed to flashing fast-paced information and very little learning of patience and controlled development. (Not judging you, btw just making general observations)

Maybe people who are interested havent logged in during the hours after you posted and might in some more hours. Or maybe people just arent interested at all, and this is something we just have to accept, even us mods or senior members have made threads before with no responses... There is of course the chance people who might be interested didnt see, but give it a week, or two, and then maybe bump your thread once.. Imagine if every single person that didnt get an answer in some hours would bump their threads/posts, the forum would be a mess of content-less posts of attempts to get attention.

I hope you understand this is meant as a constructive criticism, and an opportunity I felt to comment on something i noticed recently, def not an attack to you.


Now after this long detour, back to the topic: You are very right and I have seen this in practice myself! In fact, this was in the FAQ. The more saturated a solvent is, the less a substance will move to it. Like if you try to get into an elevator packed with people, maybe the first person that went in could go in fast because there was plenty of space, but the more people, the harder it is for them to move into the elevator, even if there is still theoretically space inside. Or think of when washing clothes (the example given in the FAQ), or very dirty dishes, where one will do one wash to get rid of most stuff, but then rinse and wash it again (or the washing machine has many cycles instead of just one long one), because there is always some dirt left behind.

Its not for nothing that ALL teks in this forum talk about 3 (or sometimes more) pulls, it comes from practical experience of many many years and different people.

Thanks for the explanation, I have added a link to this thread in the mentioned FAQ entry



The monkeys are getting crazier and crazier before they explode and transcend... Haven´t you read Mckenna and novelty theory...Smile Soon 24 hours will be a lifetime!Pleased
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