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Is there 5-MeO-DMT in Diplopterys Cabrerana / Chaliponga ? Options
 
69ron
#61 Posted : 6/24/2010 8:14:19 PM

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fractal enchantment wrote:
I dont by the auto suggestion thing.


It feels like it has 5-MeO-DMT because IT DOES have it. It's proven to have it.

When you mix even trace amounts of 5-MeO-DMT with DMT, you can feel it. This is easily evident by mixing them yourself. You can easily feel 10 parts DMT to 1 part 5-MeO-DMT. 5-MeO-DMT is a very dominant psychedelic, and easily overpowers DMT, so even such a small amount of 5-MeO-DMT can be felt.

You guys aren’t imagining that there’s 5-MeO-DMT in it.

If you can use the leaves sublingually, and this is proven to work, and it produces a mild 5-MeO-DMT effect, it’s because of the 5-MeO-DMT in it. It’s not “auto suggestion” or any other BS. It’s because it has 5-MeO-DMT in it. If it didn't, you would not be able to use it sublingually because it doesn't contain enough DMT to be effective that way. Besides, sublingually it produces the effects of 5-MeO-DMT precisely, so there is no question about it. This is even more evident with an extract, but ONLY if you extra it the way I mentioned to ensure you do actually extract the 5-MeO-DMT.

Why is no one using the tech I mention? You skeptics should try it out. And see for yourself just how wrong you actually are. As they say, “the proof is in the pudding”. Try my extraction tech, then analyze it and you’ll see I AM RIGHT.

Until you guys actually try my tech, and test it, there's no point arguing. If you use a tech that doesn't work for extracting 5-MeO-DMT then your tests are worthless.
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corpus callosum
#62 Posted : 8/3/2010 2:10:09 PM

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This has been a fairly heated discussion but I must say that 69rons tek with chaliponga leaf/DCM/citric acid/sodium carbonate DOES work to produce a greenish material which is psycho-active sublingually.A friend of mine tried the tek out, as per 69rons challenge to the Nexus.

I tried the extract last night and it is definitely active stuff.It has the head-effects similar to DMT but lacks any compelling visual effects.I used 11mg only and I have never tried pure 5 meo DMT before but to my mind, it seems to deliver the kind of effect that one reads about when talking about 5 meo.

I dont think this settles the issue but I would suggest that other Nexians who have tried 5 meo DMT try the tek, for the sake of expanding the cumulative knowledge of the Nexus
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soulfood
#63 Posted : 8/4/2010 3:17:50 PM

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69ron wrote:


Until you guys actually try my tech, and test it, there's no point arguing. If you use a tech that doesn't work for extracting 5-MeO-DMT then your tests are worthless.


I'd love to do a chali extraction, I just have concerns about the amount of DCM needed. For example could you roughly say how much DCM does it take to defat 100g's of chaliponga?
 
Gir
#64 Posted : 8/4/2010 7:43:24 PM

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soulfood wrote:
69ron wrote:


Until you guys actually try my tech, and test it, there's no point arguing. If you use a tech that doesn't work for extracting 5-MeO-DMT then your tests are worthless.


I'd love to do a chali extraction, I just have concerns about the amount of DCM needed. For example could you roughly say how much DCM does it take to defat 100g's of chaliponga?


Im pretty sure he's sick of discussing this soul.

I would just try it out using normal amounts.. 100g chali = 1200mL saturated citric acid-water mix / defat using 50mL DCM per defat / basify with say 50g carbonate (or until proper ph is achieved) / Pull with 60mL DCM 5 times (6-7 times just in case).

When SWIM gets access to DCM, he will attempt this, he has some fresh chaliponga, and would like to try this specific ally.
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soulfood
#65 Posted : 8/4/2010 8:22:44 PM

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So... less than a litre? Laughing
 
69ron
#66 Posted : 8/11/2010 4:47:11 AM

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corpus callosum wrote:
This has been a fairly heated discussion but I must say that 69rons tek with chaliponga leaf/DCM/citric acid/sodium carbonate DOES work to produce a greenish material which is psycho-active sublingually.A friend of mine tried the tek out, as per 69rons challenge to the Nexus.

I tried the extract last night and it is definitely active stuff.It has the head-effects similar to DMT but lacks any compelling visual effects.I used 11mg only and I have never tried pure 5 meo DMT before but to my mind, it seems to deliver the kind of effect that one reads about when talking about 5 meo.

I dont think this settles the issue but I would suggest that other Nexians who have tried 5 meo DMT try the tek, for the sake of expanding the cumulative knowledge of the Nexus


Thank you for posting that. Finally, someone tested what I posted! And found out that I’m actually not full of shit.

There is NO WAY DMT can do anything at that dose sublingually. The only psychedelic present in chaliponga that can is 5-MeO-DMT. There is no other psychedelic present in chaliponga that is that potent sublingually.

I’m sick to death of this topic mostly because most of the people arguing hard against me in this thread have not actually tested anything at all, but are simply rehashing old data on chaliponga printed somewhere on the internet. Unless the proper extraction tech is used, you aren’t going to extract 5-MeO-DMT. If done right you will, and it can sometimes be a lot.
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Oncewas
#67 Posted : 8/11/2010 10:30:00 PM
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dude its magic!
 
69ron
#68 Posted : 8/11/2010 10:53:35 PM

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Mydriasis wrote:
I also made a thread about quidding chali-ponga leaves in a teabag(made a thread about it here but no one else tried it?) and experienced not only activity, but some pretty intense fear that I will never ever forget.


That sounds exactly like 5-MeO-DMT. It can induce intense fear unlike DMT. SWIM is very familiar with 5-MeO-DMT, so much so that there's no way it's possible that DMT is causing the effect. Just no way. No two psychedelics produce the exact same effects. Not even psilocybin and psilocin do. The effects of quidding are identical to the effects of 5-MeO-DMT. Anyone with experience with sublingual 5-MeO-DMT will say that.
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Ginkgo
#69 Posted : 8/12/2010 1:10:42 AM

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In fact, 5-MeO-DMT is in several studies found in Chaliponga in trace amounts. Trace amounts usually means <0.1%, so with a dosage of 20 grams that means up to 19mg 5-MeO-DMT. That is definitively an active amount of 5-MeO-DMT, especially when combined with a MAOI. I therefore find this whole discussion pointless. It really is 5-MeO-DMT in active amounts in some (bot probably not all) Chaliponga.
 
endlessness
#70 Posted : 10/24/2011 11:07:32 AM

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Can you please quote your sources for 5-MeO-DMT content in Diplopterys cabrerana?

For example:

Monoamine oxidase inhibitors in Amazonian hallucinogenic plants: ethnobotanical, phytochemical, and pharmacological investigations
DJ McKenna - 1984

This one does not find 5-MeO-DMT, only very small traces of bufotenine (here they quote 0.01% for another alkaloid, so "trace" means even less than that)

Im also attaching the analysis that everybody quotes from Agurell et al (1968 ) to say chaliponga has 5-MeO-DMT (thanks Zip for finding it!), and again, not really.

notice that in this publication, the data for the leaves, 98% of alkaloids = DMT, the other 2% being a mixture of different alkaloids. Then if you look at figure 1, thats the gas chromatograph, and it's cut down (you dont really see how high the peak of dmt goes for example). In any case, the graph shows the relative intensity of alkaloids, and considering peak 3 is 5-MeO-DMT, and peak 4 is bufotenine (which is already considered "trace" ), you can see how VERY small amounts the 5-MeO-DMT is.. I mean, 2% of the alkaloids (not plant weight) = peak 4 plus peak 2 plus un-numbered peak, plus peak 3. And if peak 3 doesnt represent even a 100th of this whole thing, then "trace" means a few orders of magnitude less than 0.1%. Meaning, negligible (not enough for psychoactivity)!

The same publication shows 2% 5-MeO-DMT in stems, but thats not what people have been using....

I have some diplopterys leaves sent to me by polytrip, Ill try to GC-MS them sometime soon, lets see if I come up with anything.


Hey btw does anybody have Snu's book (nen888?), to see what kind of info and references there are regarding Diplopterys cabrerana alkaloid profile?
 
Ginkgo
#71 Posted : 10/24/2011 11:45:54 AM

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I might have jumped to conclusions - the only source I can find now is the same article as you posted. I might have found references to that article and thought of them as independant articles, but I don't remember, as it was over a year ago I submitted that post. Nevertheless, the fact that the authors found 5-MeO-DMT in trace amounts in the leaves, and 2% in the stems, may mean that other strains or individual plants may have a noticeable quantity of 5-MeO-DMT in its leaves.

As we all very well know by now, 69ron's statements must be taken with at least a kilo of salt, and I'm sorry to have supported his theory without backing it up. However, I'm sure there is Chaliponga leaves out there with a noticeable quantity of 5-MeO-DMT, this from seeing the huge variations found in many other plants producing indole alkaloids. Generally, when a plant has the enzymes to produce for example 5-MeO-DMT or bufotenine, you will have individual strains or plants producing higher quantities of these than the usual trace amounts. This can also vary greatly between different times of the year as well as different times of the day.
 
endlessness
#72 Posted : 10/24/2011 12:02:35 PM

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I agree there can be variations, but even variations have limits. Maybe it varies from 0.00001% to 0.0001% at most in the leaves? Who knows...

The chali polytrip sent me, he thought it must contain 5-MeO-DMT, from his bioassays, so if it does have, we'll be able to see, and if not, we'll also see that even when people really think it there, it isnt.
 
Entropymancer
#73 Posted : 10/24/2011 3:15:30 PM

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endlessness wrote:
Hey btw does anybody have Snu's book to see what kind of info and references there are regarding Diplopterys cabrerana alkaloid profile?


"D. cabrerana leaf has yielded 0.17-1.75% DMT, as well as traces of N-methyltryptamine, 5-methoxy-DMT [5-MeO-DMT], bufotenine, and 2-methyl-THβC. Stems yielded 0.177% alkaloids, consisting of 94% DMT, 2% 5-MeO-DMT and 2% 2-methyl-THβC (Agurell et al. 1968a, 1968b; Der Marderosian et al. 1968; McKenna et al. 1984a). It should be noted that the higher range of DMT content in leaves was an estimated quantity, which was not actually isolated (Trout pers. comm.)."

And the bibliography entries for those citations:
  • Agurell, S. et al. 1968a. "Identification of two new β-carboline alkaloids in South American hallucinogenic plants." Biochem. Pharmacol. 17:2487-2488.
  • Agurell, S. et al. 1968b. "Alkaloid content of Banisteriopsis rusbyana." American J. Pharmacy 140:148-151.
  • Der Marderosian, A.H. et al. 1968. "Native use and occurrence of N,N-dimethyltryptamine in the leaves of Banisteriopsis rusbyana." American J. Pharmacy 140:137-147.
  • McKenna, D.J. et al. 1984a. "Monoamine oxidase inhibitors in South American hallucinogenic plants: tryptamine and β-carboline constituents of ayahuasca." J. Ethnopharm. 10:195-223.

 
endlessness
#74 Posted : 10/24/2011 4:20:16 PM

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Thanks entropy, so seems we're back to square 1 with Agurell publication as the main source for this claim... So since literature only gives us 'trace' values that wouldnt be psychoactive, the only thing missing is analyzing some chaliponga again and seeing what we can come up with.
 
Infundibulum
#75 Posted : 10/24/2011 5:16:00 PM

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I am also extremely curious with these chaliponga results. I am still not convinced that chaliponga has enough 5meo to make a worthy contribution to the experience. But there is always the possibility that some strains have overpowering 5meo presence, like the case of polytrip's batch, that's why its analysis is so important.

As a side note, I remember bufoman mentioning in a brief personal communication that he had analysed chali with gc/ms without finding any 5meo.


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endlessness
#76 Posted : 11/4/2011 8:29:25 PM

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GC-MS results of polytrip's Diplopterys cabrerana = No 5-MeO-DMT detected at all. Mostly DMT, and some trace alks, not 5-MeO-DMT. Im getting the mass spectra on monday to see what there is, apparently its not a betacarboline, maybe bufotenine?
 
jamie
#77 Posted : 11/4/2011 8:38:58 PM

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interesting...
 
AluminumFoilRobots
#78 Posted : 11/5/2011 12:28:02 AM

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So I've been thinking, perhaps chaliponga's distinct effects come from the monomethyltryptamine present in the stems? I know the batches of chalk I have gotten have had lots of stem and even some actual bark/wood of the vine in one batch.

I dont have any extraction experience, or experience with 5-meo-dmt or with NMT but I've cooked quite a bit of chaliponga's leaf, and can account for its unique, mind-bending psychological eddie-forming nature...

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endlessness
#79 Posted : 11/7/2011 8:06:23 PM

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So Im attaching the mass spectra for Diplopterys Cabrerana. It is a methanol soak of dried leaves, so it should get the full range of alkaloids.

For those that might care for the technical details:

GC details wrote:
GC-MS analysis was performed in an Agilent 5890 series II gas chromatograph coupled to an 5971A quadrupole mass spectrometer detector (Agilent). The gas chromatograph was fitted with an 6890 auto sampler injector. Samples were injected in split mode into a 12m × 0.2mm i.d., 0.33 µm film thickness 5% phenylmethylsilicone column (ULTRA-2, Agilent Technologies). The oven temperature was programmed at 90ºC during 2min and increased 20ºC/min to 300ºC. Finally was maintained at 300ºC over 4min with a total run time of 14.50min. Insert liners packed with silanized glasswool were used. The injector and the interface were operated at 280 ◦C. Helium was used as carrier gas at a flow rate of 0.48ml/min. The mass spectrometer was operated in electron impact ionization mode at 70 eV


So here´s the spectra:



The top part of the page is the the retention time. So basically the gas chromatograph separates the substances, each one is coming at different times through the column (read a simple explanation of how GC-MS works here). Notice there is one main peak, all the other peaks are at most 10x smaller, meaning 10x less abundant than DMT. So if there is 1% dmt, there is 0.1% of these other substances.

So the bottom of the page is a look at the mass spectra of the DMT peak (each peak in that lower half of the page is a small fragment of the molecule, as it breaks from the electron impact in the MS part of the machine. Notice how it is the same as a DMT standard spectrum

As for the mass spectra of the other smaller peaks that appear on the top of the page, you can see them individually in the zip file I attached. None of them corresponds to 5-MeO-DMT, nor bufotenine. They dont seem to be beta carbolines either but Im not sure yet. I have not identified the other peaks except knowing they are not 5-meo nor bufo, it would be good if one of our experts would be able to help me out, otherwise I´ll keep trying to search for them and will post here if I have them identified. Its possible some of these peaks arent even alkaloids, but other inactive plant impurities.

Hope this helps shed some light that any potential difference people feel from chaliponga is not due to 5-MeO-DMT, but probably self suggestion and/or related with synergy of small amount of other alkaloids (which we have to identify).

PS: Does anybody have relative retention times in any same system, for DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, bufotenine, and any beta carbolines of interest?
 
polytrip
#80 Posted : 11/7/2011 10:01:15 PM
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The difference in effects is too strong to be auto-sugestion. I find chaliponga significantly less visual than chacruna, for instance. There must be something in there that alters the effects of DMT.
 
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