We've Moved! Visit our NEW FORUM to join the latest discussions. This is an archive of our previous conversations...

You can find the login page for the old forum here.
CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
12NEXT
North American Tryptamine Acacia (& 'Pulque') Options
 
nen888
#1 Posted : 7/23/2011 5:05:35 AM
member for the trees

Acacia expert | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingSenior Member | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, Counselling

Posts: 4003
Joined: 28-Jun-2011
Last visit: 27-May-2024
..
(see Trying to improve Acacia info.thread for details/refs/photo..

Acacia angustissima (Prairie acacia, White ball acacia) (native to USA, Mexico)
β-methyl-phenethylamine, NMT and DMT in leaf
The root is used in the drink 'pulque' in Mexico.The indigenous Tzotzil and Tzeltal Maya people of Mexico use A. angustissima to treat digestive tract problems. They also use it to treat toothache, rheumatoid arthritis and cuts of the skin. Experiments have shown that A. angustissima mildly inhibits the growth of Escherichia coli and Staphylococcus aureus.(see Wikipedia for references)

A native californian acacia is Acacia pringlei californica : (California Pringle Acacia)..don't know of any tests...

..anyone one the ground near one up for some experiments...?
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
nen888
#2 Posted : 7/23/2011 6:16:20 AM
member for the trees

Acacia expert | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingSenior Member | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, Counselling

Posts: 4003
Joined: 28-Jun-2011
Last visit: 27-May-2024
regarding Pulque

..Jonanthan Ott told me a few years back he was extensively researching this mexican plant/drink, looking forward to hearing what he discovered...Smile

wikipedia says:
... Pulque, or octli, is a milk-colored, somewhat viscous alcoholic beverage made from the fermented sap of the maguey plant, and is a traditional native beverage of Mexico. The drink’s history extends far back into the Mesoamerican period, when it was considered sacred, and its use was limited to certain classes of people. After the Spanish Conquest of Mexico, the drink became secular and its consumption rose. The consumption of pulque reached its peak in the late 19th century. In the 20th century, the drink fell into decline, mostly because of competition from beer, which became more prevalent with the arrival of European immigrants. There are some efforts to revive the drink’s popularity through tourism.
... Pulque is a milk-colored, somewhat viscous liquid that produces a light foam. It is made by fermenting the sap of certain types of maguey (agave) plants. In contrast, mezcal is made from the cooked heart of certain agave plants, and tequila, a variety of mescal, is made all or mostly from the blue agave. There are about six varieties of maguey that are best used for the production of pulque. The name “pulque” is derived from Nahuatl. The original name of the drink was “iztac octli” (white wine), the term pulque was probably mistakenly derived by the Spanish from the “octli poliuhqui” which meant "spoiled wine".

The presence of phenethylamines & possibly other alkaloids makes this a possible one-plant pharmahusaca candidate..

Ott told me that shortly after the Spanish conquest, the acacia constituent was banned from the drink (replaced with substitute),
making this tree the first illegal plant in America!...
 
nen888
#3 Posted : 7/23/2011 10:58:49 AM
member for the trees

Acacia expert | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingSenior Member | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, Counselling

Posts: 4003
Joined: 28-Jun-2011
Last visit: 27-May-2024
..also, could the Agave sp. (used for Pulque) contain beta-carbolines...?
 
Dorge
#4 Posted : 7/23/2011 9:06:10 PM

Chen Cho Dorge


Posts: 1781
Joined: 30-Dec-2008
Last visit: 25-Nov-2012
Fascinating.... I want some
Dorge is cooperatively owned and cooperatively run by various hyperspacial entities working as a collabertive sentience project for the betterment of sentient exploration.

Offical Changa web sitehttp://changa.esotericpharma.org/


 
wira
#5 Posted : 8/29/2011 4:21:00 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 163
Joined: 18-Jul-2011
Last visit: 02-Apr-2024
It might not be necessary for the pulqe to contain beta-carbolines, as other phytochemicals can have MAOI effects. In fact nen888, it was you years ago who advised me to look into the (then) new field of MAOI activity from flavonoids Wink
However, all of this is in animal studies; human MAOI activity of many chemicals is still poorly known, and some beta-carbolines which have shown MAOI activity in animal studies (or rather, in vitro studies on animal organs) don't appear to do the business in people (thinking here of Acacia complanata extract).
 
wira
#6 Posted : 8/29/2011 4:23:35 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 163
Joined: 18-Jul-2011
Last visit: 02-Apr-2024
By the way, the DMT and NMT concentrations that have been found in Acacia angustissima so far are very low.
 
nen888
#7 Posted : 8/30/2011 4:06:03 AM
member for the trees

Acacia expert | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingSenior Member | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, Counselling

Posts: 4003
Joined: 28-Jun-2011
Last visit: 27-May-2024
..wira wrote
Quote:
By the way, the DMT and NMT concentrations that have been found in Acacia angustissima so far are very low.

..this is based on a single test of phyllodes of Australian material..most acacia field researchers find huge variation in results
eg. in the '90s Mulga found 0.6% tryptamines in A. obtusifolia bark, but 0.07% in phyllodes of the same plant (Mulga website)..
variation can be seasonal or genetic (or even a resuilt of methodology, many qualitive phytochemical tests often do not maximise their extractions for quantity, by repeated extraction or heat for instance)..

..this tree was part of a psychoactive Aztec drink which frightened the Spanish enough to get it banned..
(so i wouldn't let a single test in a non-native population be the final word on content)...
 
wira
#8 Posted : 9/1/2011 4:29:24 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 163
Joined: 18-Jul-2011
Last visit: 02-Apr-2024
nen888 wrote:
..this is based on a single test of phyllodes of Australian material..most acacia field researchers find huge variation in results
eg. in the '90s Mulga found 0.6% tryptamines in A. obtusifolia bark, but 0.07% in phyllodes of the same plant (Mulga website)..
variation can be seasonal or genetic (or even a resuilt of methodology, many qualitive phytochemical tests often do not maximise their extractions for quantity, by repeated extraction or heat for instance)..

..this tree was part of a psychoactive Aztec drink which frightened the Spanish enough to get it banned..
(so i wouldn't let a single test in a non-native population be the final word on content)...


That's why I said "so far" Wink By the way, in this case they would be pinnules rather than phyllodes as it's a bipinnate species.
Though what you say is true, and I always acknowledge that there can be very wide natural variation in phytochemistry due to numerous factors such as those you mentioned. Whenever I see a finding of low concentrations of tryptamines or other compounds of interest from a plant, I hold out hope that this is just the lower range and one day people will find much higher yields in different circumstances Very happy
Regarding the Aztec beverage, bear in mind that this is a proposed identity for the species used, and is (as I understand it) only one of numerous plants and/or animals/animal secretions (eg toads) which were reportedly also used as additives.
 
nen888
#9 Posted : 10/22/2011 10:26:41 AM
member for the trees

Acacia expert | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingSenior Member | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, Counselling

Posts: 4003
Joined: 28-Jun-2011
Last visit: 27-May-2024
..there have been one or two other tentative findings of some DMT and 5meoDMT in A. angustissima (White Ball Acacia)
see acacia info, post#164 for more info./refs.
the chemistry of this species, and it's sub-variety 'texensis', warrants further study...
nen888 attached the following image(s):
angustissimaPCD3538_IMG0001.JPG (86kb) downloaded 419 time(s).
angustissimawp14867.JPG (1,198kb) downloaded 421 time(s).
 
AlbertKLloyd
#10 Posted : 10/23/2011 6:00:27 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1453
Joined: 05-Apr-2009
Last visit: 02-Feb-2014
Location: hypospace
As for the activity it has in pulque, it was called cuapatle

When i researched it as cuapatle all i found was that it was known as a stimulant, not a psychedelic

considering it has been found to have N-methyl-PEA, this is not surprising.

 
nen888
#11 Posted : 10/24/2011 5:21:36 AM
member for the trees

Acacia expert | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingSenior Member | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, Counselling

Posts: 4003
Joined: 28-Jun-2011
Last visit: 27-May-2024
AlbertKLloyd wrote
Quote:
As for the activity it has in pulque, it was called cuapatle

When i researched it as cuapatle all i found was that it was known as a stimulant, not a psychedelic

considering it has been found to have N-methyl-PEA, this is not surprising.

..thanks for the input..i don't know if the effects of these simple PEAs are well understood, and (if not entheogenic) they still may possess emphathogenic qualities..also, if all 7 U.S. acacias said to contain just N-methyl-PEA do, this makes them quite different statistically to the rest of the world's acacias
..i am aware of current underground research on the 3-4 australian species claimed to contain just phenethylamines..these tests have not been followed up (to my knowledge) since the 60s..most recent research indicates that indoles rule the acacia world..
but Texas is it's own universe i guessSmile
 
wira
#12 Posted : 11/7/2011 1:19:40 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 163
Joined: 18-Jul-2011
Last visit: 02-Apr-2024
In only knew of this being called ocpatl or palo de pulque. Can you please share your source for the name cuapatle (cuapatl?), and the reported stimulant activity?
 
nen888
#13 Posted : 11/16/2011 2:35:01 AM
member for the trees

Acacia expert | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingSenior Member | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, Counselling

Posts: 4003
Joined: 28-Jun-2011
Last visit: 27-May-2024
..yes, i would also be interested in this source of info. for 'cuapatl' AlbertKLloyd..

Pulque seems to have changed a lot since Spanish conquer, after which it changed from sacred to secular..the Spanish banned the original Acacia element(J. Ott pers. comm.) ..the key plant is the Agave spp. ('maguey'Pleased, of which i don't know of any alkaloid tests..the agave seems to be used like the ayahuasca vine, with different possible admixture plants..
..also from wikipedia:
Quote:
Unlike beer, the fermenting agents present in the seed of pulque are bacteria of the species Zymomonas mobilis (syn. Thermobacterium mobile http://www.uniprot.org/taxonomy/542) rather than yeast.
 
wira
#14 Posted : 11/18/2011 2:17:34 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 163
Joined: 18-Jul-2011
Last visit: 02-Apr-2024
Thanks to google books, found some info, possibly the same soucres that Albert K Lloyd read...

from Drinking, homicide and rebellion in colonial Mexican villages. William B. Taylor. Stanford University Press, 1979.

"One maguey required eight to ten years to mature (somewhat longer at high altitudes) and then produced sixty to ninety gallons of juice for pulque over a period of a few months. In extracting the juice, the central leaves were cut back and the heart pierced with a sharp knife. Then a bowl was scraped around the hole to catch the accumulating juice. Twice daily, the tlachiquero, or collector, gathered the juice by sucking through a long gourd with a hole at each end. The juice was taken to vats of animal hides or wood, where it was added to a starter and allowed to ferment. After a few days of fermentation the result was pulque, a frothy brew with an alcohol content of about 4 per cent. The juice of the maguey was also cooked to the consistency of syrup. This extract was traded in central Mexico before and after the conquest. Various roots and herbs were added to pulque for their preservative and intoxicating properties.

One clearly pre-Hispanic additive to pulque was cuapatle (the bark of the Acacia angustissima), which was widely used throughout the pulque zone of central and southern Mexico although its use was forbidden by the Crown in 1529. It is mentioned as a standard additive in various Relaciones Geograficas for central Mexico and Oaxaca. Motolinia speaks of cuapatle or ocpatli as the "medicine" or "cure" that caused the fermentation of pulque. Other sixteenth-century sources more accurately speak of the bark "giving strength" to the pulque rather than causing fermentation. Henry Bruman, who studied pre-Hispanic drink areas in Mexico, has identified cuapatle as a source of digitoxin, a heart stimulant, which would indeed make the drug effect of the beverage stronger.

Pulque in both Oaxaca and central Mexico was the chief ritual intoxicant. It was believed to have been invented by the gods, and its use was primarily in the service of the gods. A close association among maguey-pulque, fertility, and agriculture in pre-Hispanic central Mexican religions is suggested by the importance of Mayahuel, the goddess of pulque, who appears in the Codex Vaticanus A in an earth-mother form with four hundred breasts and whose headdress in the Mixtecan Borgia Codex seems to link her with Tlaloc, god of rain and the focal point of peasant religion. The association of pulque with divine femininity is repeated in the colonial period with the Virgin of Guadalupe, who was acclaimed as the mother of maguey, and the Virgin of los Remedios, whose carved image was found on a maguey plant by a Christian cacique."


from Magistrates of the sacred: priests and parishioners in eighteenth-century Mexico. William B. Taylor. Stanford University Press, 1996.

"The function of this drinking in the quest for heightened experience of the sacred becomes even clearer when it is recalled that a digitoxin, cuapatle (the bark of the Acacia angustissima tree), was much desired as an additive to pulque in the colonial period. It made the heart - that organ of the life force so fascinating to the pre-Christian societies of Mesoamerica - race and seem about to explode. If the Mexica are representative, the ideas behind such ecstatic practices (which included other kinds of dramatic action and emotion, such as blood sacrifices and the processions, mystery plays, and other ceremonial performances that early Catholic priests encouraged) centered on transformation and submission to the sacred - of consciously entering new phases, of the living human body as a stage in a vegetal cycle of transformation uniting the human and the sacred."
 
AlbertKLloyd
#15 Posted : 11/18/2011 4:31:02 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1453
Joined: 05-Apr-2009
Last visit: 02-Feb-2014
Location: hypospace
wira wrote:
In only knew of this being called ocpatl or palo de pulque. Can you please share your source for the name cuapatle (cuapatl?), and the reported stimulant activity?

as was already mentioned:
Drinking, Homicide, and Rebellion in Colonial Mexican Villages By William B. Taylor, page 31, 2nd paragraph, it has references in the work that you can research yourself, but there are a few other sources out there for this information too

I'd be really cautious about Ott and Ratsch and what they state as fact BTW, they are notorious for publishing dubious and unsupported claims, not that all their claims are false, they just can't be trusted to be accurate in terms of their publications and content when it is second hand information they are relaying. They often speculate and publish their speculations as assertions, just be cautious about accepting what they say as fact.
 
nen888
#16 Posted : 11/9/2012 5:26:49 AM
member for the trees

Acacia expert | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingSenior Member | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, Counselling

Posts: 4003
Joined: 28-Jun-2011
Last visit: 27-May-2024
..so with legal cannabis in the USA, perhaps Obama will forgive some research into America's history of possible tryptamine Acacias..?Smile particularly with regards to Mesoamerican and Native American significance..?

and from recent correlation and analysis in the acacia info thread, i suspect it's the white flower forms of 'White Ball Acacia' Nexian researchers should look for, not the species (or it's sub-species' ) yellow flowered varieties..

Albert K. Lloyd wrote:
Quote:
I'd be really cautious about Ott and Ratsch and what they state as fact BTW, they are notorious for publishing dubious and unsupported claims, not that all their claims are false, they just can't be trusted to be accurate in terms of their publications and content when it is second hand information they are relaying. They often speculate and publish their speculations as assertions, just be cautious about accepting what they say as fact.

..while I don't disagree with that, the same i guess can be said for most sources..hence research and comparative analysis, and some lateral thinking ..but, i have left 95% of the detail that J. Ott personally gave me on his Angustissima, and other acacia, research..and bioassays..he is very meticulous in his work, and will correct errors in his works if he discovers them..it's out of respect for his private research (which he will hopefully make public one day) that i can't go into any more detail..
i can say that he also told me the most complete and mind-blowing version/decipherment of the Aztec Quetzalcoatl vs. Smoking Mirror legend i've ever heard!..Smile

..there hasn't been, that i'm aware of anyway, much serious study of North American acacias with regards to constituents or genetic variance..and the single published DMT finding was done very quickly on the leaf of Australian naturalised plants!..and Appelseed's DMT/5meo 'tentative' finding was based simply on one reagent colorimimetric test..

the key point about Pulque for me is that i believe there is evidence that the Acacia constituent of the Mesoamerican Sacred drink was banned by the Spanish, and that ever since another acacia has been used in what has become a secular beverage like beer..like Absyinthe without the Artemisia..
whether Angustissima (or just a specific form of it, which in indigenous cultures may be considered another 'species' ) was the original tree is the question..
..also, the fermenting bacteria in Pulque is not in the yeast family, which acts on most alcoholic drinks, it's instead a Zymomonas (syn. Thermobacterium) species..
.

below, The Evolution of Pulque..6000BC to the 21st C..Smile
nen888 attached the following image(s):
Pulque04.jpg (8kb) downloaded 291 time(s).
Aztec Pulque Ceremony.jpg (537kb) downloaded 292 time(s).
Aztec Pulque ritual.jpg (429kb) downloaded 293 time(s).
Agave_Pulque.JPG (822kb) downloaded 294 time(s).
Aztec Gods?.jpg (45kb) downloaded 302 time(s).
little bit prickly.jpg (52kb) downloaded 297 time(s).
WhiteBallAcacia53101.jpg (15kb) downloaded 294 time(s).
 
Morris Crowley
#17 Posted : 4/23/2013 6:34:30 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 68
Joined: 17-Sep-2012
Last visit: 13-Feb-2018
nen888 wrote:
i have left 95% of the detail that J. Ott personally gave me on his Angustissima ... it's out of respect for his private research (which he will hopefully make public one day) that i can't go into any more detail..


While he hasn't published his research in written form, he gave a talk titled “From Octli/Pulque and Xochioctli to Mezcal and Vino de Mezcal Tequila” at the 2004 MindStates conference. The audio from the talk can be heard on Psychedelic Salon: Podcast 269.

He first starts to mention Acacia angustissima as the "pulque stick" or the "drug of octli" around 32 minutes into the mp3 file from the Psychedelic Salon. He circles around the subject for a while on various tangents before finally naming the plant around 39:30. I recommend listening to the full lecture, as it is full of good information. The central thesis is that fermented agave beverages, much like cacao potions, were used in a manner analogous to traditional ayahuasca potions: as a vehicle for medicines or other psychoactives.
Follow me on Twitter (@morris_crowley) and on Facebook

Help us grow The Nexian
 
cave paintings
#18 Posted : 4/23/2013 7:29:25 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 415
Joined: 10-Jul-2010
Last visit: 18-Apr-2020
Location: Earth
Wow, this thread has all sorts of good stuff. I have only skimmed most of it. Very interesting. Anyhow, I'm quite sure I know where some reside. I'll find.
Living to Give
 
nen888
#19 Posted : 4/23/2013 7:59:39 AM
member for the trees

Acacia expert | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingSenior Member | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, Counselling

Posts: 4003
Joined: 28-Jun-2011
Last visit: 27-May-2024
Morris Crowley wrote:
Quote:
The central thesis is that fermented agave beverages, much like cacao potions, were used in a manner analogous to traditional ayahuasca potions: as a vehicle for medicines or other psychoactives.
..thank you for this M.C...i was unsure if he'd ever mentioned this in public..
the Aztec picture attached earlier is certainly reminiscent of ayahuasca (incl. la purga)
..on the botanical front i'll mention var. hirta, with larger flowers, found in a few US states incl. Texas and Arizona..
let us know how you go cave paintings..Smile

below, A. angustissima var. hirta distribution map, and flowers..
nen888 attached the following image(s):
A. angustissia var. hirta range.jpg (54kb) downloaded 222 time(s).
A. angustissima, Texas.jpg (183kb) downloaded 225 time(s).
 
datdmt
#20 Posted : 2/12/2014 6:11:48 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 140
Joined: 29-Oct-2013
Last visit: 07-May-2016
Location: Where the rain comes in
ott said the root of the acacia is whats added, did the research team only test the leaves? maybe ott was mistaken. I live in Texas so i am very interested in this.
It feels familiar , for good reason.
 
12NEXT
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest (2)

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.036 seconds.