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Trying to improve Acacia information Options
 
wira
#161 Posted : 11/4/2011 3:15:26 PM

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This is a tricky issue, as you've both demonstrated with good arguments.
As to the first question, I always like to hope that people, when provided with delicate information - such as being told a species has a good alkaloid content, but that it is also very rare and should be cultivated or left alone - will be respectful enough to do the right thing. After all, this is sacred stuff. That's a nice thing to hope for, but my faith in humanity continues to be eroded by the constant observations that there are always some people (a lot, it seems) who just don't care. Hopefully one day they will. The irony is it may take more exposure to plant compounds like these for them to wake up. So I guess I don't have a neat stance on this - I feel both sides strongly, but I would prefer that if such information is published it should be done discreetly. A public forum therefore is not the best place for it, although until now some of us may have had the illusion that we're just chatting in our own little world. I've refrained from listing one particular species on wikipedia or here, though I apologise if I slipped up and mentioned it once somewhere here. If so let me know where and I'll edit it.

For the second question, the perfect example is Acacia phlebophylla, which is pointless to try to hide because practically the whole world knows about it now. The chemical analysis was published in the 60's and people have reported their own experiments with it since the mid-90's. It's in numerous books and on most lists of DMT-containing plants. However, the plants are still there in the wild, probably partly because of the discovery of a more common alternative (not counting maidenii which many people gave up on early after finding it to be so variable). The localised damage to populations of that species (obtusifolia), and now to acuminata, is extremely unfortunate, but I tend to agree that the more alternatives are discovered and the information disseminated, the less likely this is to happen. The rate of new discoveries has increased greatly so hopefully we'll never see destructive harvesting like that again, when people realise they may be surrounded by potential sources. I think this destructive and selfish behaviour is just a general symptom of the human sickness, and the plant medicine they are killing trees to get to is the medicine that may heal them. Then they may become people who protect plants and urge others to do the same. In a roundabout way, I guess I'm saying that sad as it is, in this screwed-up world with so many people, this is all bound to happen regardless of what us few people say here, and that maybe it has to happen.
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
nen888
#162 Posted : 11/5/2011 3:06:50 AM
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..thanks for your ponderings wira..

..a thought, for now, on Vulnerable Species..

if people are simply greedy drug promoters, then there is no point in exhausting their entire supply in a year..
if they are interested in simply personal spiritual or recreational usage, then i think they would eventually be disturbed by detrimental exploitation of it..
the trees can modify their components after bark has been removed to become more defensive
..they can put the ignorant off their tea..
.

ps. the more dangerous thing to do is to give a specific location, especially of a specific phenotype.

pps. i spent weeks thinking about 'information theory' before beginning this thread..this thread informs people on all sides of the issue...
 
nen888
#163 Posted : 11/5/2011 3:09:58 AM
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this has been moved from earlier:
Growing Australian Acacias Guide:


Seeds: develop 1-4 months after flowering (usually at least two specimens required
in cultivation to allow cross-polination) ; viable 10-50 years (or more if stored well)

Germination: either place seeds in saucepan of water and bring to boil over 7-10 minutes,
or carefully damage hard outer coat with scissors or file being careful not to hit the internal 'germ';
leave soaking in water, they should slightly swell over 24hrs..then place in soft moist medium such as moss or wet tissue..as sprouts they are very delicate and should not be allowed to dry out or be moved until their first root is a few cm.

Seedling Care: after a couple of weeks the sprouts can be potted in a sand +cocoa/peat moss or other well drained but moisture retaining medium..in the first 2-3 months their roots must not be allowed to dry out or they'll die..they respond well to light and regular watering..when they have no more juvenile leaves (mimosa-like) they are more robust.

Fertilizer: use nitrogen rich slow release fertilizers (avoid phosphorus), ash also good supplement.

Long Term Care/ Planting: acacias will develop more quickly & become larger in the right ground conditions..well drained (e.g moist sandy), lots of sun, water & nutrient, low acidity, no competing grasses..growth rates of 5-7ft in 3-4 years (from germination) are attainable in cultivation..some smaller species like a. phlebophylla may be suited to long-term large tub growing, if indoors lots of light required..pruning of branches every few years should not cause much harm to large trees..

Conditions: most southern australian acacias tolerate frost and winter conditions in the low minus range; a few weeks of snow is ok for a few; once established they are drought resistant and should no longer require watering, but still respond well to fertilizer..
.
 
nen888
#164 Posted : 11/6/2011 3:16:38 AM
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..found another formally tested aussie i missed..

Acacia cardiophylla..found to contain what was thought to be a mixture of
tryptamine and phenethylamine [White 1957]..needs follow-ups

within 6 months or so i would hope there are enough known species that rarer ones will disappear from view in the crowd, allowing conservation and research to continue..
i placed one of these on the list previously when i became aware it was already being circulated in the underground and felt the 'public' had a right to know..
long term there is no 'discrete' other than secret handshakes..small run references eventually get cited in wider seen things...

here is a. cardiophylla:
nen888 attached the following image(s):
a cardiophylla.jpg (28kb) downloaded 1,240 time(s).
 
nen888
#165 Posted : 11/6/2011 9:01:13 AM
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..i just want to say one last thing to chief hobo stank..if your friend's information was so important to keep secret, why do people know? they shouldn't have told anyone..the species i assume you refer to was NOT revealed by me..i responded by discussing how rare it was..
the other very rare one 'sp C', is known by half the freaks i meet in a certain part of australia...the 'underground' contains some unscrupulous people..information like this can never remain 'discrete' forever once a book (even 500 copies) is published..my 'militant' attitude also includes confronting these 'salespeople' about what they do (which can get one unpopular or threatened ) ..
..10 years ago some accused myself and others of 'elitism' for with-holding information..now i'm a terrible 'tree-revealer'..i have to laugh ( except at the poor trees, of course)
.
 
cheif hobo stank
#166 Posted : 11/7/2011 3:33:54 AM
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Whilst I do not know the character who discovered that "species B" , I was merely following another thread he started before he had even ID'd the tree. A few "hints" were dropped as to it's identity which made it blatantly obvious what he was talking about, to anyone with a basic knowledge of the ecology of the area. Word has gotten around by word-of-mouth, I assume through people he felt were responsible, and some of these people have dropped the name on occasion.

I agree that as more and more useful and abundant species are discovered it will not be as vital to keep some of these "hush hush". Even still, some people will always target "special" trees. Case in point, 10 years ago a certain posse of American's were coming over and taking back vegemite jars full of phlebophylla extract !. These people were (and still are!) deep in the ethnobotany scene and knew better but used the old "well the trees say it is ok". it was quite profitable for them and financed several trips back for more. Now some may say, "well look at the phlebos now they are doing fine!" but the ecology of the species we are talking about are very different, they are not regenerated by fire as with phlebo and it is unlikely for a similar 'mass-recruitment' event to take place with either of these species.

Hey nen I'm not baggin you out as a "Terrible Tree-revealer" take it easy buddy. I felt this needed to be discussed it is not a personal attack. Keep up the good work furthering Acacia knowledge.
 
nen888
#167 Posted : 11/7/2011 3:38:05 AM
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..hey no worries, we are essentially on the same page..i just find a huge irony in all of this..
i admit i have been a little naive regarding certain kinds of 'collectors', and in the bush food industry individual plants have been stolen or cut down due to their genetic value..
..i do genuinely thank you, chief hobo stank, for getting stuck into this issue..Smile
 
cheif hobo stank
#168 Posted : 11/7/2011 3:39:23 AM
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Also for Australian researchers, I just notice there will be a Thin Layer Chromatography talk at the annual EGA conference this year, so anybody lucky enough to make it down it should be a must see. Hands down the cheapest and easiest way for the layman to confirm and quantify tryptamine content! A team of TLC enthusiasts around the country will make short work of analysing all our potential tryptamine carriers.

I see you will be there nen, if possible it would be good to get an introduction to TLC into this thread/forum?
 
cheif hobo stank
#169 Posted : 11/7/2011 3:43:25 AM
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nen888 wrote:
..in the bush food industry individual plants have been stolen or cut down due to their genetic value..


Exactly! I think it was Torsten who said in another forum, re: massive damage to Acacia's, something along the lines of:

Almost every plant species that has been identified as a "commoddity", has suffered as a result.

Thank you too nen, now on with the researchVery happy
 
nen888
#170 Posted : 11/7/2011 3:47:35 AM
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..EGA should be an interesting event,

for TLC (and other handy techniques) see: How do analytical methods work? (TLC, etc)
and DIY Thin Layer Chromatography...

see you about..Smile
 
wira
#171 Posted : 11/7/2011 1:14:35 PM

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In case there's any confusion, I didn't mean to suggest that phlebophylla is not still under threat. The fact that they are still there is a blessing, not a thumbs up for resuming its exploitation.
I also take a pretty dim view of anyone who sells this stuff or profits from it, from any of the active Acacias, not just the rare ones.

Regarding cardiophylla, it is a beautiful species which I've encountered far too infrequently. They are lovely little shrubs/trees but often don't seem to be producing enough biomass to make them a good prospect for sustainable harvest (and no, I'm not hinting that I've tried - all I know of its content is from the old research nen888 cited). On the other hand, I've only ever seen a smallish plant or two in cultivation (it's not indigenous to where I am), so I don't know how much more vigorous they may be in the wild. Just realised this hadn't been included on the wikipedia list, so I'll add it (I mostly only edited the entries already there).
 
nen888
#172 Posted : 11/8/2011 3:58:25 AM
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..hey much thanks for your work on updating the wikipedia list wira..Smile

..regarding FIELD TESTING OF ACACIA ALKALOIDS, see entheogenic effects of nmt p.3 post#49
only a leaf or two are required to get an idea if a plant contains tryptamines..

..i'll also repeat a description here of SIMPLIFIED COLUMN CROMATOGRAPHY,
also known as Paper or 'Planar' Chromatography...


firstly, a small amount of extract is made soluble in a suitable solvent..this is usually a mixture intended allow clearer separation of compounds
..see chromatographic properties of n-oxide for examples..and "entheogenic effects of nmt" p.2 post#29 for acacia experimental example..
the solvent is poured into a flat evaporating dish..

second, a sheet of blotting paper (thin) is clamped between two sheets of equivalent sized glass..this simple 'column' is placed in the solvent dish at an angle between 35-90 degrees (experimentation of best angle is often required)..45 degrees is an appropriate starting point..
(incidentally, i have no idea why, scientifically speaking, the angle affects it)

the solvent is allowed to naturally evaporate, as it does so it wicks up the column
..when completely evaporated, visible horizontal bands corresponding to each alkaloid appear, deposited according to molecular weight..UV can reveal non-visible bands, re-agents can give an idea what type of alkaloid [see colorimetric test results]

very little plant material is required for such testing proceedures..Smile
.
 
nen888
#173 Posted : 11/8/2011 4:01:20 AM
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..i thought i would look at one of the most common australian tryptamine species, Acacia longifolia..
the important factor to research with longifolia is it's genetic & chemical variability, but this seems split along distinct sub-type lines rather than random,
with the usual seasonal variation also playing a role..flowering may not be the best time..

A. longifolia was in the 50s and 60s found to contain 0.2% tryptamines and histamines but not studied in detail [White 1951; 1956; Rovelli]
in 1995 it was reported in Entheogen Review to contain 0.2-0.3% dmt and said to be 'clean'; in 1997 i noted (on a tip-off) that an area where very serious bark damage had been done to presumed obtusifolia, and the extract circulated, had not one of that species in site..the plant was flowering and it was clearly longifolia (time & color) but the leaves were not that unlike the species that had been sought; i know of 3 other different extractions of around 0.3% mainly dmt from longifolia, and another is mentioned earlier in the thread..

it appears that A. longifolia, genetically, either contains mainly tryptamines or mainly histamines..
there are 2 or more sub-types of A. longifolia, [plus sub-species 'sophorae', once a seperate species and itself variable]..

..of true longifolia, two major features seem to indicate the more likely presence of tryptamines:
1) phyllode shape & texture - slightly broader/shorter with shiny dark green is histamine sub-type, plant tends to be more prostrate;
- longer/narrower with paler green, more leathery texture is tryptamine sub-type.
2) flowers - longer, larger, denser, brighter yellow; certain aroma, is histamine type;
- slightly shorter, sparser, less bright yellow is tryptamine type.
..there appears to be a third (not common) form of longifolia which is higher in tryptamines than most..

NB. the toxicity of the histamines is not well known but is probably not acute..they have been bio-assayed at 20-30mg without serious adverse effects; the kind of activity is not understood well either..Histamine is an endogenous neurotransmitter or hormone, and vasodilator ..

A. longifolia is commonly planted as a roadside ornamental, and is grown internationally..
a research priority now is to identify and propagate seed of the confirmed tryptamine variety(s)
...
the photos below tend towards the high 'tryptamine' form, though there is usually intermediacy between forms in the wild...
nen888 attached the following image(s):
acacia longifolia.jpg (69kb) downloaded 1,207 time(s).
a.longifolia2.jpg (29kb) downloaded 1,201 time(s).
a.longi3.jpg (29kb) downloaded 1,201 time(s).
longifolia form.jpg (10kb) downloaded 1,161 time(s).
 
nen888
#174 Posted : 11/8/2011 7:25:06 AM
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..hey there, all researchers of the (acacia) light..


INDEX OF THIS THREAD - PAGES 1-10 moved to top of page 11..



.
 
nen888
#175 Posted : 11/12/2011 8:01:55 AM
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..if you are offered so-called 'dmt' for sale in australia it may be good to ponder this...do you know where it's from, what species and how ethically the trees were harvested? is it right for people to destroy trees in national parks/reserves and profit from this? is giving these people your money playing a part in ecological rape & pillaging?
should plants or sacred medicines be treated as commodities? right now some people are doing all of this..
..if you want medicine nature made it for you, for free...
.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


..in the interests of knowledge i will discuss Acacia floribunda (Gossamer Wattle) a little more..mainly found in Victoria and NSW, it is certainly not common enough in the wild to withstand above mentioned exploitation for long..planted by many councils..
..A. floribunda leaves contain 0.3-0.4% alkaloids, mainly DMT, with probably a little NMT, tryptamine and trace beta-carbolines..branch and twig bark 0.5%.
it is probably variable, though not as much as a. obtusifolia..seasonal times when alkaloids may be reduced or absent are after heavy rain, or flowering/seeding.
incorrect pH levels can result in low or no findings of alkaloids (see tech p.9; +p8#158 ) seeds easily purchased..cultivated by many nurseries..
..it is closely related to A. maidenii and A. longissima..
.
nen888 attached the following image(s):
Acacia_floribunda.jpg (83kb) downloaded 1,160 time(s).
acacia floribunda 03.jpg (18kb) downloaded 1,154 time(s).
 
nen888
#176 Posted : 11/12/2011 8:25:40 AM
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..a very good one to clarify would be
Acacia rigidula (Mexico & Central America)

in this paper http://www.lycaeum.org/mv/sci/acacia_rigidula.html Clement et al. 2000 found 44 alkaloids in the species, including DMT, NMT,
N-methylphenethylamine, nicotine & traces of mescaline..this paper has been met with disbelief by some researchers..this was partly on the grounds that the authors would not respond to questions, but the questioners were on a very different line of the DEA political fence at the time..
..most of the alkaloids were found in trace amounts, so this may be a case of a more detailed analysis of an acacia than previously attempted..i do not know..
attached below is the table of alkaloids in PPM from two different times of year..this same team did the similarly controversial A. berlandieri study..

rigidula..i would really like to see some follow-up studies on this lovely looking one...
nen888 attached the following image(s):
A. rigidula constituents.jpg (93kb) downloaded 1,144 time(s).
RIGIDULA_IMG0010.JPG (108kb) downloaded 1,139 time(s).
aca rig full.jpg (501kb) downloaded 1,136 time(s).
 
nen888
#177 Posted : 11/12/2011 12:36:05 PM
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..for historical purposes, here is the original A. maidenii 1992 net-report which started the wave of experimentation (it wasn't known at he time that alkaloids were also in the phyllodes)

posted 8/31/92 on u.washington.edu:/public/alt.drugs...

Quote:
The following events are as far divorced from reality as the experience of the drug itself :-)

I discovered that a local plant, Acacia maidenii, was reported to contain 0.6% alkaloids in the bark, of which 1/3 was N-methyl tryptamine, and 2/3 was Dimethyl Tryptamine (DMT). (Alkaloids of The Australian Leguminosae - The Occurrence of Methylated Tryptamines in Acacia maidenii F. Muell. J.S. Fitzgerald and A.A. Sioumis Australian Journal of Chemistry, 1965, 18 433-4)

Some research of old botany books suggested a nearby location, and to my surprise I found many hundred of the trees growing along creek gullys in a nearby national park.

I took about half a kilo of vertical strips from a number of trees, trying to cause as little as possible permanent damage. The bark was thick, red, fibrous and resinous.

Smoking the bark directly gave a mild hallucinogenic effect, on the limits of the detectable. That evening, I shredded the bark by hand. This was difficult and incomplete; mechanical milling would be far preferable. I placed the shreds about 3.5 litres of analytical grade methanol from Monday night until Friday afternoon. The methanol quickly took up colour from the bark and turned a deep red colour.

As much as possible of the methanol was removed by filtering. I evaporated off the methanol using a fractionating column, a condenser, and a saucepan of boiling water as heating, for some hours, and recovered much of the methanol. I placed this methanol back with the bark and reextracted for some hours while evaporating the rest, then filtered the bark again and combined the extracts, and stripped as much as possible of the methanol, to leave a thick resinous brown liquid. A portion of the extract was evaporated using a hair-drier to give a thick brown resin. Attempts at smoking this using pipe and hot knife proved unpleasant and gave minimal effect.

It was decided to perform further extraction. To the extract was added dilute hydrochloric acid (about 20 ml 10M, but well diluted). Immediately, a large amount of tar congealed and was removed, leaving a watery brown aqueous mixture. This was basified with NaOH, although on reflection, I would use NH3 next time as it is less likely to overbasify and react with any of the compounds present. White precipitations were seen on basification, which redissolved on stirring.

The aqueous phase was extracted twice into CH2Cl2, and the solvent evaporated as before. The last stage of evaporation was accomplished with a hair drier, to leave about a gram or so of pale yellow liquid. On standing 24 hours, this liquid crystallised as circular arrangements of needles.

Preliminary attempts at smoking small amounts of the alkaloids gave varying mild effects, and a friend and I decided to try a larger dose. He took a cone in one toke, and was immediately on the ground, making strange sounds and looking odd. He hugged me and told me to meet him in that place, and said it was very strong. I managed to finish a large cone in 3 tokes, and was instantly blown apart as if by a large brick through the head. I think I was temporarily blinded, and found myself on the ground grasping my friend, and coughing for air, as I watched all of my surroundings fragment into small pieces divided by lightning bolts, and feeling all the air in the universe escape through the holes. We were both totally astounded and scared shitless. 2 minutes later, the intense part was over. We staggered out into the open, and walked in the park until we calmed down. Pleasant mild hallucinations continued for about half an hour, and there were no after effects whatsoever. The experience was extemely intense, and the smoke has an unpleasant taste. Several other people have tried it since, and the most popular adjective is "wicked." Effects have ranged from mild to intense, and some people say that while it could not be described as "good" or "enjoyable," they would be happy to try it again. My subsequent trips were more bearable, as I was not under any anxiety about the duration or outcome of the trip. Nevertheless, the trip is still extremely intense, and also physically demanding: giving strong tactile hallucinations and stimulation.

On a second occasion, I took 1.7 kg of bark, and pulverised it as best I could using a circular saw. The result was mostly a fibrous powder. Some pieces had to be shredded by hand. Methanol extraction was performed as before. Since the amount was larger on this occasion, the quantities were somewhat unwieldy. Stripping the five litres of solvent (aprx) took approximately 14 hours. On attempting to acidify, filter, and basify, considerable difficulty was experienced; the acidified residue seemed unfilterable, and when basified with NH3, a thick pink gel was formed which was impossible to extract. By a painful process of trial and error, I found that at very low pH, most of the resins became dissolved or suspended. At slightly low pH, the residue separated nicely into a tar and an aqueous phase. At slightly high pH, the mixture became a thick gelatinous solid. At very high pH, this solid redissolved. The result of this seems to be that much of the tar can be separated by successive extraction at moderately low pH (dilute HCl), and then that the addition of strong hydroxide will leave the amphoteric resins in solution, but make the alkaloids insoluble. These are then extracted into dichloromethane as before, and the organic layer is back extracted with salty NaOH solution to remove impurities. The dichloromethane is then stripped as before, to leave the alkaloids which crystallise in 24 hours or more.

Myself and a friend experimented with repeat doses of DMT at close intervals. A base pipe was used for smoking the alkaloids. This pipe allows minimum combustion and maximum vaporisation, and thus is the most economical way to smoke DMT. Because there is little combustion, the smoke does not taste quite as bad, and also the base pipe allows more accurate metering of the dose. After the initial physical rush, it was found that taking small tokes at intervals of a few minutes was sufficient to maintain an extremely pleasant trip, not unlike that of psilocin. There was minimum physical discomfort associated with the cruise. However, while in this mild state, I took two large tokes of the substance, and a few seconds later, without warning, I was blown apart. I was walking, but staggered and choked, gasping for air. The effects were totally overwhelming, like being thrown out of the universe, and I watched my visual sphere being pixelated at successively lower resolutions, until I could see merely individual elements of colour. The intensity was such as to make it very unpleasant.

A few more experiences should be related. It seems that the response of various people to this extract varies greatly, and even a single individual can have a variety of responses, from no effect to total dissociation. One girl tried a single toke for the first time, and was completely thrown out of the universe (from her description). She was begging for it to end; the duration was longer than usual: about 15 minutes of heavy peak, and at the end of it she vomited while gasping for air when beginning to return to some normality and bodliy control.

On one occasion, I first ate a whole bottle of the 4:1 extract of Passiflora incarnata which is available over the counter in Australia. Each tablet contains 500 mg of extract, and I ate 60 tablets. Supposedly a single tablet is supposed to be a herbal sedative, but I was not sedated after consuming the 60. My reason for doing this was that Passiflora incarnata is supposed to contain a variety of beta-carbolines which are mono-amine-oxidase inhibitors, which have been used to potentiate the effects of DMT, and make it orally active. About 40 minutes later, I smoked some DMT, the effects of which were not greatly different from what I am used to. I then had a slightly larger amount, and without warning, felt an intense incredible rush of physical pleasure through my body. Within seconds, I was riding on the most intense unimaginable pure total body orgasm. I was unable to control myself, and I was screaming at the top of my voice until the effects subsided. The visual and auditory enhancement were mild, but the physical hallucination is was by far the most enjoyable thing I have ever experienced. Observers, who were taken aback by my behaviour, claim that I was in this state for about 10 minutes. Afterwards, I felt intensely euphoric, and both very excited and very relaxed. I tried eating a significant quantity of the DMT after this experience, and found no effect. This would indicate that the Sedacalm passionflower extract is insufficient to orally activate DMT at these doses. It may be that higher doses would have some effect, or that Sedacalm does not contain appreciable quantities of beta-carbolines. Harman, harmol, harmalol, harmaline, and harmine have all been reported in Passiflora incarnata over the years, but one paper claims that only harman, which is not particularly active, is the only alkaloid present.

I intend to experiment further with this plant.

I am planning to attempt to side-step the methanol extraction, simply by attempting to extract directly into hydrochloric acid. Freezing and thawing the bark might serve to burst the vesicles containing the alkaloids (if this is the case - I am not a biologist). The advantage of doing this would be decreased cost, easy availability of all raw materials, and decreased time involved. The disadvantage would most likely be a reduction in yield, but larger amounts could be processed. The acid extract would have to be boiled down from several litres to a few hundred mills, then filtered, and this process could destroy the alkaloid. Comments on this method would be welcomed.

My references tell me that N-methyl tryptamine is most likely inactive at these doses. Does anyone have any information regarding the physical and psychological effects of this compound? Also any information regarding the hazards of DMT use would be appreciated.

..it has since been discovered that use of phyllodes leads to less problematic tar issues than bark..and NMT, of course, is active (though not particularly visual) ..
& also sufficient amounts of p. incarnata can orally activate tryptamines..
.
 
wira
#178 Posted : 11/13/2011 3:00:27 PM

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A. floribunda is very widely planted in Vic. - it is practically everywhere, even though not so common in the wild.
That said, it's still not acceptable to butcher street trees. People should treat them with the same respect. Older trees that are nearing the end of their days sometimes split apart to some extent, and branches break off from natural causes.

Regarding rigidula and berlandieri, the doubt was not just due to the authors not responding to questions. Other issues that give pause for thought are 1) amphetamines have never been found naturally occurring, and these papers made very little fuss about their claims - this is pretty strange in itself; 2) one of the phenethylamine-derivatives reported didn't even have a published synthesis according to Shulgin, and is a new compound - again, it is pretty strange that they don't even discuss that. Also, where a new compound is found for the first time, the paper usually reports on a synthesis of the same compound for comparison, to prove its structure. In plant chemistry journals it is normal for the isolation of new compounds to be treated as a big deal, and the very title of the paper usually is centred on this (not the case here though, in either paper). What is strangest of all is these papers getting through peer review without any eyebrows being raised. Some people have speculated that the plants analysed were growing on an old drug stash and absorbed the chemicals, but it would be odd for such similar results to be found in both species; besides, even if true this explanation doesn't address the other things I've mentioned. Same deal with the possibility of contaminated lab equipment. Personally I think the articles were a prank, and the authors are still chuckling to themselves over the fact that the journal published them without question.Wink
 
nen888
#179 Posted : 11/13/2011 3:08:03 PM
member for the trees

Acacia expert | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingSenior Member | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, Counselling

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..the only thing is, wira, Dr. Beverly A. Clement is a real person who has published various papers and worked for the Department of Veterinary Anatomy and Public Health, Texas..she co-edited an Organic Chemistry textbook and is a senior researcher & lecturer..other members of the author-team work(ed) for the kind of organisations sometimes hired by government branches like the DEA to find 'toxins' in plants or extracts..if it's a hoax it's rather high level conspiratorial..i don't think it is..

amazon link to: Organic Chemisry (Laboratory Manual) Clement & Harding ed., Texas A & M University..
you can enrol as a student of hers here: http://www.blinn.edu/brazos/nat...lement%20chem1411-A3.pdf...
 
nen888
#180 Posted : 11/14/2011 1:53:30 PM
member for the trees

Acacia expert | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingSenior Member | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, Counselling

Posts: 3870
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..here's what Alexander Shulgin had to say a while back on A. berlandieri (and A. rigidula)
Quote:
My first thoughts as to origin were directed towards the well known natural hydroxylated amphetamines such as norephedrine, ephedrine and N-methylephedrine. I know that ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, frequent precursors in the illegal synthesis of methamphetamine, can be reduced to methamphetamine as an artifact of analysis. The sample insertion conditions of the gas chromatograph can effect this conversion. But then, there was no mention of any of these hydroxylated alkaloids as being present in either Acacia.

Might a contaminated round-bottomed flask have been purchased at a garage sale outside an abandoned meth-lab and served as the source of these "man-made" compounds? Unlikely, even in Texas.

Even more dramatic, one of these amphetamines, the 4-Methoxyamphetamine, is the increasingly notorious PMA that is appearing as one of the lethal "Ecstasy" offerings in the rave scene.

Several months ago I tried to contact, individually, the two principal authors, by both e-mail and personal snail-mail, and I have received no response as yet.

There is certainly precedent for a drug which was originally man-made, to be discovered in a plant. N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) was first synthesized by Manske, in Canada, in the 1930s. It was over twenty years later that it was discovered in a plant from South America. But such an event usually evokes considerable commentary. Here it seems that an exciting story is being ignored. Am I missing something? - Shulgin


...two very interesting trees indeed

anyone here live in Texas..?

here's the Guajillo Tree
nen888 attached the following image(s):
A. berlandieri_IMG0045.JPG (146kb) downloaded 1,042 time(s).
a. berlandieri, texas.jpg (57kb) downloaded 1,046 time(s).
guajillo_2.jpg (26kb) downloaded 1,032 time(s).
 
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