Advice Sought – Trip Report (after my ass handed to me)

Hello brothers & sisters! Love and blessings to you.

Since this is my first post, let me start by thanking all of the members of the board for making it such a valuable place. I have benefitted greatly reading the discussions here.


BACKGROUND

I had a difficult GVG journey, and I was hoping for some perspective from some who have traveled the landscape more than I.

Basic relevant background: I have been a ritualistic entheogenist for about ten years, mostly on my own unfortunately, reading eastern & western philosophy throughout this time, and practicing various spiritual-type lifestyles. I’ve never taken heroic doses of anything. Spice has been on my mind for many years, and it was finally time recently. This specific journey is approximately my eighth or so spice exploration. I have started from very low amounts, and been steadily increasing and improving my technique. All of these are GVG journeys.


THE GIFT

My third or fourth time out, a week or so ago, with approximately 10-15mg (before I received my scale), I ran into a couple respectable elves who offered me something extremely terrifying. I had “seen” this thing once before during a solo meditation with Lucy, too terrifying for me to stay with. I guiltily declined the elves’ gift, out of fear that on earth I genuinely might scream in terror, which would attract rather undesirable attention/consequences in my current environment. It was easy to rationally decline this gift, I assume because of the low mg.


MY INTERPRETATION

I assume this “gift” is a sort of path in (for these lower doses maybe?) hyperspace leading to utter ego annihilation, and/or spice breakthrough. This is something I’d really like perspective on from those who have been farther down the hole than I. Has anyone been (lovingly) offered terrifying gifts that were anything other than something along this line?


QUEST FOR THE TERROR BALL

I arranged a sitter, planning to approximately double the dose and hopefully find them/that place again. Unfortunately, when I exhaled to go for a second toke, a huge amount of vapor came out in my breath. So I waited, blew out some - again huge vapor. I waited until I was worried I could no longer work the tools, then went for another, and realized I had taken everything in the first. Damn GVG being so effective.

I went in with a feeling of “dammit I screwed everything up”, and found myself running from one entity to another asking if they knew where mother (mother aya) was like a moron. Very embarrassing. I’d guess I blew out half, leaving about 10-15mg for me again. It felt about the same intensity.


ARRIVAL OF THE SCALE

Fast forward a few journeys and many other entities. I finally received my scale, and shifted my attention to learning dose size effects, slowly upping mg to try to get an idea of what is out there, and trying to ride the edge of my solo safety limits. I got some caapi tincture, and after a rather safe 24mg journey the day before (only spice), tried sublingual 20mg caapi extract, wait 20min, then GVG 20mg spice.

I failed at keeping the extract under my tongue, how does anyone do that? But swishing it around for 20min somewhat violently and then swallowing brought some pleasant effects, enough I figured to test the synergy. I went in with a reasonable amount of “pure” exploration and truth seeking. I recall noticing the first spice hallucination, and giving it my full attention as best I can, which is the best method I’ve so far found for me to get as far out there as possible.


THE GIFT, WITH INTEREST REQUIRED IN FULL

Definite feeling of annihilation happening – memories coming up in almost a mocking fashion of what they are, strange scenery flying by barely noticed, déjà vu all over the place, afraid I’m not breathing, told ‘good job’ for breathing, then scolded ‘stop that!’ for paying attention to my breath, and then, those same elves with their gift. A strong feeling that it was the same ones. Only, WAY MORE REAL. Is "they were about 15mg more real" a precise quantitative measurement? I had realized on the previous 24mg journey, that the description “in your face” I’d come across on the forums, is extremely meaningful. And here it was again, in my face. Indescribably in my face. Terrifying gift, but I was happy to be back. And then I remembered that screaming would be very undesirable for me. I had to escape.


THE ESCAPE, WITH TAIL BETWEEN LEGS

It wasn’t a nice calm declining of their offer this time. It was full on running the fuck away. Not a panic run, but an amount of running required to get away from them, which was significant. And they were not happy with me for being such a pussy about it. I made it to my sleep mask, got it off, got in my body, opened eyes, took off covers, stood up.

First time moving on earth while that heavily under the influence. First time with eyes open in fact. My first instinct was to call a friend for safety. But I was incapable of making sense of what sort of time-space zone we were in on earth, and they might be doing something that, if I interrupted with some crazy bad-trip talk, and they dropped important things and came to help just to find me completely sober… it would cost too much social capital.

I had no idea how long I’d been going. I needed to know to attempt to figure out how much longer I’d be going. Was this going to be one of those surprise – this is going to last for hours things? Because I had probably better call in that case. I had typed my vaporizing-time on my trip journal on the laptop. I tried to find it, remembering amusedly discussions about electronics usage with spice. Fun stuff. Time and space and all my surroundings were all fucked up, and I could hear/feel either the elves or my guilt loudly demanding me to return to the futon.

I prostrated myself in front of where I had been laying, there was a feeling that they were still there. I begged their forgiveness on my knees, repeatedly apologizing for refusing a gift so amazing I’m not even worthy to be offered it, asking them to understand my individuality concerns and then went back to trying to figure out the times.


EVERYTHING IS NOT OK

I felt panic a couple of times, the standard “oh shit I forgot bad trips can really happen!” panic. The realization that I was currently so mobile, as fucked up as I was, especially worried me. Maybe adrenaline? I like the “heavy and unmovable body” spice seems to give me, keeps me out of trouble. I gave my standard panic/psy mantra response - “everything is ok. Yes to all. Radical Acceptance. Etc.” Then I realized or thought, that the more I accept the moment, the more it brings me back to that terrifying thing/elves. It was like – “Everything is ok. But NOT THAT OK!!!!!!”

Lol. It was like I had to ride a fine healthy line of anxiety to keep me from either running out into traffic or relaxing back into the terror place. First time in years my specific goal was to not completely accept the moment as being ok. LOL.

I had a handle on riding the anxiety line, intentionally using figuring out contact of my friend to do so. I believe in about ten minutes I was confident that effects were starting to diminish, and felt safe to resolve to wait to contact friend until normal communication was possible, and then just to ask assistance grounding me over the phone.


MY REQUESTS FOR GUIDANCE/PERSPECTIVE

And this brings me to my main questions:

Do you think the terror-gift is likely annihilation and/or spice breakthrough and/or some version of the Godhead/ultimate reality/pure consciousness etc.?

Have you ever received a terrifying gift that was not along this line? I’d really appreciate detailed experiences if you have.

Have you ever yelled during vapor journeys? Or anything else attention-drawing? Do you think this is a reasonable concern, or just a manifestation my fear of annihilation?

Have you pissed off entities before? Did you run into them again? Were you able to “smooth things out?” Have you intentionally acted in ways you think allowed meeting specific entities again? I’m sincerely concerned that they will basically give up on me and I will not get another chance.

Accepting that gift, seeing that thing, feels very important to me, what are your thoughts on finding it again? This is the third time I’ve come across it. Do you think, “smoak moar!” will pretty much force me to accept that gift? Or perhaps the same gift in different forms? If it is annihilation and/or breakthrough, do you think smoking more may simply blast me all the way out there without having to first deal with this manifestation (those specific elves with the specific gift) getting there?

This was the first time I had the breath fear. I’ve read about it before. It was extremely frightening and unexpected for me. My experience was, recognizing something is wrong, and then realizing I’m constricting my breath on earth (not that I know that was actually happening). This is a serious concern for me. Have you experienced this? And how have you dealt with it? Is anyone aware of asphyxiation ever occurring? I have to feel safe with this aspect in order to go deeply again. I’m confused as to whether to pay attention to my breath, it’s always been such a significant part of my practices. And especially that it seems the entities rewarded me for paying attention to my breathing and scolded me for it. Though I think it was me saying good job to myself, and them giving me their ffS response.

thanks for sharing your time

I am far from an expert, and can only help so far. But. I have met entities. They have always been benign, if a little bizarre - I have always tried to keep interaction positive. Now whether these are a manifestation of your subconcious, or real beings from another dimension, it's hard to say - they certainly are very real at the time, eh?

You must approach them with love, and accept what they are going to show you - if its your subconscious trying to communicate, then surely it is important to listen. I know its weird, but you need to face these things head on, or they will keep happening in one form or another - they can't hurt you. Your doses do seem a little on the 'cautious' side to me - things only really start to get interesting after about 30 mgs IMO, so maybe a bigger first hit will propel you past that stage.

Let go, flow with the experience - you will be fine!

I'm pretty sure I know the "gifts" you're talking about, and I don't believe they're any kind of portals to ego anihlation or even going deeper or whatever. They're merely hyperspatial objects to behold or you can play with them if you like and exchange energy with it, but beyond that I don't think they really do much other than constantly shift and fold and whatnot.

I think this is all good advice. I should say I assume entities are some kind of subconscious projection, in case I come off sounding like I believe I'm meeting non-personal things. Not that I'd be too surprised to find out so, as you say in that context/experience they are impressively real.

I have definitely been staying on the cautious side, that is correct.

I'm thinking I will have to wait until a situation where if I do make noise it will be ok, so I can fully not resist the experience. The breathing thing, have you had issue with this? I have to make some kind of decision with this before I think.

I’d say the first problem is referring to the unknown gift as a “terror-gift”. Why would you assume that? And once you make that assumption, why would you expect anything other than terror? I think your fear about attracting attention (via screaming) is holding you back and is probably unwarranted. And again, why assume you’re going to reach a point where you’re likely to scream?

It seems to me that you’ve decided the experience is going to be terrifying even before anything terrifying has happened, and then you struggle to get out/away from it.

Regardless of the source of entities, I’ve found that approaching them with trust and love is always a good approach. Sometimes they might “test” you, but if you maintain trust and love, you’ll pass the test and get to move on.

In my experience, the DMT dose-response curve is very steep. Going from 24mg to 30mg (for me) would be a huge step. Proceed with caution regarding dose size.

I like your description of entities being “15mg more real”.

Thank you, I will keep this in mind. Once I'm in a position where I can fully let go, I will not be surprised if this is what I find.

here are some thoughts for you:

The breathing thing is not mentioned enough. I have had some scary moments in the past with difficulty in breathing.
this has only happened with extremely high spice doses in combination with black caapi tea. Luckily For me its only been a couple of times.
When it happened it felt like a combination of a fight or flight freekout or simply forgetting to breath.
Deep breathing has been front and center in all my journeys, its the only way to deal with overwhelming trips in my opinion.

Take the entity thing on your own terms there are many varied opinions on it. Don't attach yourself to one idea, stay open with it.
Witness these things ask them questions see what happens. All theories are provisional.


My entity contact has tapered off lately and now its just a direct connection to this greater consciousness information stream.
In my last experience I had a a new take on it for myself. Try to think of it more as a simple connection to something.
Imagine that your making a connection to this greater expansive consciousness . Once there's enough maoi and spice in your system
you become a node in a greater network of non-physical reality.

Take all the earthly judgement out of it. think of it like decending into an ocean. good, evil are irrelevent. Love becomes the central theme.
Love seems to be a universal focal point in all this.

Work in to it gradually thats what i do. try sublingual caapi tincture under the tongue wait a bit then start with lower doses of spice.
feel the vibration in your core, focus on it, don't be concerned with the visuals, don't be overwhelmed. stay focussed on the feelings.
increase the spice, raise the electrical feelings in your system. keep doing this and you will connect to it without fear.
Its simpler than we think actually.

This thing can be a house of mirrors sometimes don't let it fool you, stay in a non-judgement strong focussed mindset.
it seems to me that parts of this larger consciousness will come close to you and check you out. sometimes these things can get right in your face and float there staring at you. sometimes your mind will put a weird face on it and it gets freeky. flow with it, if it gets uncomfortable tell
it you don't like it and your not fooled. see what happens. stay playful Make jokes stay light . seriously this is key .
Don't get too serious about the whole thing it helps really.

one more thing try a nature setting as far from man-made things as possible. find a big rock in the woods or a lake or stream.
my crazy ass theory is that man made objects like houses and electronics walls etc. effect the experience. I only journey in neutral
natural settings away from people, noises and man-made objects.


I've been at this for along time these are only suggestions based on much experience.
stay focussed and loving

I agree with this. My description of the gift may have come off too harsh. I don't think the gift itself is negative in any way, I get the feeling it's one of the most beautiful and divine things I've ever seen. There's a strong sense of divine sacredness at this point for me. It's my response to looking at it that is the terror. It's hard for me not to contextualize this directly into my perspective of eastern/hindu philosophy. My auto-interpretation is along the lines of Krishna displaying his terrifying and divinely beautiful self to Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita. Though I believe nothing literally, and it's difficult to separate whether my response in the moment was based on the way I am interpreting it now.

It's very possible that subconsciously I'd decided it's going to be terrifying, but I can't locate that bit. I went into this journey feeling confident that all would be well, and meditating a bit beforehand to be in a place of just accepting whatever is offered to me, and being humble and grateful to the experience/molecule/entities. The 24mg trip the day before was, kind of uneventful. Certainly not terrifying. I had done a 25 minute breath focus meditation before, and then there was a sense I was kind of flying through dark space with multiple entities. I continued the breath focus all the way through this journey.

It was funny because when I would be breathing out, there was multiple times entities would approach me and breathe "at" me. So we'd be breathing out at each other. It seemed to be playing with each other, at the same time I got the feeling they were sort of making fun of my silliness, in a friendly but mocking way - "Silly human and your cute little breath practice" Most of my entity interaction was kind of, awkwardly looking at each other. I was thinking on this one that I was paying too much attention to my breath and not enough to the experience, and possibly even being disrespectful to the experience by doing so. I've been trying to integrate the experience with breath, but I'm wondering if it's just too far away to successfully integrate that way.

I think that coming to this with trust and love is what I have to do. I think I've got to go to an environment where it would be ok if my physiology did scream in terror, just so I can have more integrity to the experience. It seems unlikely that I would actually make any noise, but the possible consequences I don't think are worth the risk if not completely necessary.

I think I have two main concerns with this, one being that I won't get to such a level of sacredness awhile after having "turned away", and the other being concerns about breathing ok.

Thanks for the advice on the mg, I will take that. Also, thanks for your many well written posts about the usefulness of copper mesh A piece of art that.

I echo Felnik. Nature for me as well has been the most conducive environment to meaningful experience where I really felt like my soul WANTED to let go, even if my culturally defined brain did not trust what was happening around me. Once again I echo Felnik by saying: YOU'RE OVER THINKING. Keep it simple! Let the experience flow and accept all that it has for you; even terrifying gifts. Expect nothing, receive everything. Happy journeying and good luck to you !

In terms of the whole breathing thing, I wouldn't worry about concentrating on your breathing being too much. Breathing can keep you calm and happy, and trust me when I say that if you're calm and happy, the entities will be calm and happy.

I have laughed and cried and moaned and groaned on DMT. But never a yell as I don't yell and despise loud noise. I live alone, though, and can fully let go and moan when it is right to moan.

A few words of advice from the mountain top: Do not obsess over "gifts". Do not obsess over pinning down your ineffable experiences by seeking wildly interpretive terms like "breakthrough". Go into the experience without expectation (and for beef's sake DO NOT think about "terror gifts" prior to lift off--you get what you put in; you put in fear, you get fear). When coming out of the experience, no matter how hard, DO NOT call an ambulance (or anyone else save someone who has been to the mountain top and can guide you back)! You will return before you know it.

Thanks for this post, there is information here I will need to think about. I think the low doses with caapi might be a good next step. The breathing thing, perhaps I will go ahead and continue with breath focus during journeys, even if it seems to lower the intensity. At least until I feel more confident that my body is handling itself fine without me there. Or probably more accurately that I'm not stopping it from breathing when I'm frightened some.

Also the nature setting. Unfortunately I'm in a city and haven't been here long enough to know good spots not too far away. I may have to make it a goal to find a good one, and get some car maintenance done. It does seem to me that away from society would likely be an ideal location.

Thank you. This seems quite sound. I will be trying to move from this perspective.

This is difficult for me, as it really seems like putting my attention on my breath has been lowering the intensity of the experience for me. However that may of course be completely be an incorrect observation. Maybe I'm judging intensity by feelings of fear? Lol.

At the very least, after having the bit of panic with possibly not breathing, it might be the best idea to do breath focus journeys for now. Gain a better foothold of the relationship of the experience and breath.

I don't mind the terrifying part, I tend to think that's the most valuable part of the journey, at least one of the most valuable parts - facing wherever fear lies strongest. But I am certainly not looking for attention/consequences from a culture which hides from its fears, punishing its members who are willing to stare them in the face even if it means screaming in terror like a little child

This gave me quite a good laugh.

I think you are correct about not seeking interpretive terms, not obsessing over "gifts", and going in without expectation.

I'm concerned that, I went into this one without expectation (well, except that I was expecting less intensity, and of course my humanity makes it virtually impossible to completely overcome subtle unconscious expectations), and was not at all thinking I would go back to that place. It's the third time I've been there, and it seems that at some point I'm going to have to face what is there. I'd like to face this soon, I think once I do then I can feel confident about not being extremely loud.

And, I think going in from the perspective you have said is probably the best way to do it, getting to a more relaxed environment first, so I can fully do so. Do you have any thoughts about breathing?

I have been thinking about this. It seems an accurate description of my experience that there was a feeling of fight or flight freakout about it.

Also, perhaps the "good job" response I got when I breathed was for relaxing the fight or flight/surprised reaction to what was happening.

And the "scolding" response I got was for shifting my attention away from the experience to my breathing.

Your very analytical about all this .
I say that the more you go the more you adjust and adapt
To the varying physical intensities of the experiences.

you get used to it after a while . My body has adjusted to it

I,ve been through what seems like every permutation of possible
Outcomes I am familiar enough to not be distracted .
The uplink can be rough sometimes, I now have a strength
To persevere forward through the physical difficulties to reach
The hyperspace connection. I did not have this in the beginning when
I started down this road.

Pay attention to what's happening each time .try to remember for next time
Build a repartre of experience . You learn as you go .
Every journey has a lesson sometimes profound other times
Mundane as in : yeah that was a bad idea to go today .
Learn for next time . What foods work what foods don't

Goggle earth your area to find a suitable location .

You don't have to worry about "not breathing" either. Your body will breathe with or without you "behind the wheel". Sometimes there may even be a perception of not breathing, but in the laboratory they observed that even when volunteers claimed to have the sensation of not breathing, their breathing rates were being monitored and they were fine, so it's simply a perception of not breathing. If you feel like you cannot breathe, just ignore it and it will pass.

Words that are meaningful to me. I will have to chew on them a bit.

Ah thank you! I think this was a reason why I wanted to watch the Spirit Molecule again. Oh wait, now I can't remember if they discussed that in it. Did they? Oh well I want to watch anyway I think.

I remember this observation specifically from somewhere discussing the health studies done with DMT. That has been the perspective I've been running with and felt calm and confident about, and was surprised and worried that I had the difficulty with breathing when/after it happened. I think reviewing those results again will help me relax about it.

Have you read Strassman's book? I wonder if he discusses this specifically in it. If you think of any other sources about that part of it I appreciate it