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zalxder
#1 Posted : 4/12/2011 2:21:13 AM

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Location: Florida
I think that if your looking for a God that wants control over you and gets so angry at you if you don't listen you will be thrown away your not going to find it. But if your looking for a God that is the source of all energy, 'things', and consciousness never interfering but rather observing and providing the medium for what will become, that God you may just see, I know I see that God within me and within every 'thing' that exists. Maynard from the band Tool once said that he is a reactive artist and that working within parameters is how his art is formed, I feel in the same way the universe is an ultimate form of artistic expression of that source, that God.

What would be gained in a all powerful God answering to our whims and desires like causing a 5 story mansion to appear for you or swerving the bullet some vehement person just fired at you? What would be the beauty of music, if anyone could simply pick up a guitar having never touched it and play Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 perfectly? It would loose the beauty. and Beauty is the meaning of 'this' all to me.


I will try to be now what I was In a child's imagination's eye Transforming mind and spirit Into harmony In these unfamiliar places

Within each of us is an Angel waiting to emerge, become the Angel within, and create a new world where Angels walk this Earth

physicists say that the world is made of stuff. philosophers say is stuff stuff? and engineers say how can we make stuff better?

 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
zalxder
#2 Posted : 4/12/2011 3:40:29 AM

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well I used to be an atheist too until my use of marijuana and even more so salvia divinorium, and I suppose the main reason I felt there was no 'God' was the whole: "well if there were a God why do I suffer and why is there so much murder and evil, does something that allows suffering murder and evil deserve me to call it 'God'?"... and I suppose even after experimentation with things that alter perception of energy such as marijuana or salvia divinorium one could still use those arguments as to explain there not being a 'God', however I was attempting to explain why I believe things are the way they are with there being a God, which is that if we were not given free will to say, walk in front of a moving car and get squished, then our experience of life would become trivialized and loose meaning and purpose. Meaning and purpose are underlying factors of beauty and art, again my argument as to the purpose of existence as we know it at least on the human plane.

You speak of DMT entities, which basically exsist on another plane of existence and are eternal beings, the argument that at the end of your human life you will cease to exists unless one lives in a certain way is often the sales pitch for most religions, which becomes nullified when you realize you will always be, always exist, for all eternity even if you lead a miserable life during your days as a human.

Maybe you hold different reasons for atheism? I too am like you, merely curious and seeking to further my understanding and explanatory power

I will try to be now what I was In a child's imagination's eye Transforming mind and spirit Into harmony In these unfamiliar places

Within each of us is an Angel waiting to emerge, become the Angel within, and create a new world where Angels walk this Earth

physicists say that the world is made of stuff. philosophers say is stuff stuff? and engineers say how can we make stuff better?

 
DMT Psychonaut
#3 Posted : 4/12/2011 8:19:06 PM

Witness to Humanity


Posts: 229
Joined: 13-Mar-2011
Last visit: 23-Apr-2020
Location: Consciousness
I'm a philosophical zombie! Shocked
Disclaimer:

All these thoughts,
words arranged in this message,
come from the Tao
and return to the Tao.
Yet they do not touch it.
Each of us will perceive the message,
Yet to each our own interpretation.

I'll see you when the river meets us
 
hoppah
#4 Posted : 4/12/2011 9:03:49 PM

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Posts: 36
Joined: 14-Mar-2011
Last visit: 13-Sep-2011
zalxder wrote:
well I used to be an atheist too until my use of marijuana and even more so salvia divinorium, and I suppose the main reason I felt there was no 'God' was the whole: "well if there were a God why do I suffer and why is there so much murder and evil, does something that allows suffering murder and evil deserve me to call it 'God'?"... and I suppose even after experimentation with things that alter perception of energy such as marijuana or salvia divinorium one could still use those arguments as to explain there not being a 'God', however I was attempting to explain why I believe things are the way they are with there being a God, which is that if we were not given free will to say, walk in front of a moving car and get squished, then our experience of life would become trivialized and loose meaning and purpose. Meaning and purpose are underlying factors of beauty and art, again my argument as to the purpose of existence as we know it at least on the human plane.

You speak of DMT entities, which basically exsist on another plane of existence and are eternal beings, the argument that at the end of your human life you will cease to exists unless one lives in a certain way is often the sales pitch for most religions, which becomes nullified when you realize you will always be, always exist, for all eternity even if you lead a miserable life during your days as a human.

Maybe you hold different reasons for atheism? I too am like you, merely curious and seeking to further my understanding and explanatory power



You hit a central issue, one I'm treating in a book I've been working on for a while now. Many are the atheists who encountered Religion - usually some form of Christianity - and recoiled at the maddeningly illogical dogma, retreating into atheism as a reaction. "Religion is stupid and God sounds like a total asshole! Screw it, God must not exist." I have coined a phrase, however:

Religion is a failure of reason, and Atheism a failure of imagination.

The challenge to the Atheist, if he or she should choose to accept it, is to imagine a God that fits the evidence. That evidence must necessarily include not only the wonder of the cosmos and the beauty of Nature, but also war, famine, tsunamis, and how it feels when you accidentally hit your nuts with your nunchaku.

H.
 
hoppah
#5 Posted : 4/13/2011 7:15:52 PM

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Posts: 36
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Last visit: 13-Sep-2011
Zip wrote:
hoppah wrote:


Many are the atheists who encountered Religion - usually some form of Christianity - and recoiled at the maddeningly illogical dogma, retreating into atheism as a reaction. "Religion is stupid and God sounds like a total asshole! Screw it, God must not exist." I have coined a phrase, however:

Religion is a failure of reason, and Atheism a failure of imagination.

The challenge to the Atheist, if he or she should choose to accept it, is to imagine a God that fits the evidence. That evidence must necessarily include not only the wonder of the cosmos and the beauty of Nature, but also war, famine, tsunamis, and how it feels when you accidentally hit your nuts with your nunchaku.

H.


One need not posit any unnecessary entities. That is, if an explanation does not require God, then it is more elegant and parsimonious to do without Her.


Again, this is a failure of imagination - I'm not positing a "her", or an old man on a throne directing our lives like a puppeteer. All of those types of definitions are laughably inadequate.

I love the following story - it captures well what I am talking about in metaphor:

Inayat Khan tells a Hindu story of a fish who went to a queen fish and asked "I have always heard about the sea, but what is the sea? Where is it?" The Queen explained: "You live, move, and have your being in the sea. The sea is within you and without you, and you are made of sea, and you will end in the sea. The sea surrounds you as your own being."

H.
 
hoppah
#6 Posted : 4/13/2011 11:39:42 PM

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Posts: 36
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Last visit: 13-Sep-2011
Zip wrote:
hoppah wrote:
Zip wrote:
hoppah wrote:


Many are the atheists who encountered Religion - usually some form of Christianity - and recoiled at the maddeningly illogical dogma, retreating into atheism as a reaction. "Religion is stupid and God sounds like a total asshole! Screw it, God must not exist." I have coined a phrase, however:

Religion is a failure of reason, and Atheism a failure of imagination.

The challenge to the Atheist, if he or she should choose to accept it, is to imagine a God that fits the evidence. That evidence must necessarily include not only the wonder of the cosmos and the beauty of Nature, but also war, famine, tsunamis, and how it feels when you accidentally hit your nuts with your nunchaku.

H.


One need not posit any unnecessary entities. That is, if an explanation does not require God, then it is more elegant and parsimonious to do without Her.


Again, this is a failure of imagination - I'm not positing a "her", or an old man on a throne directing our lives like a puppeteer. All of those types of definitions are laughably inadequate.

I love the following story - it captures well what I am talking about in metaphor:

Inayat Khan tells a Hindu story of a fish who went to a queen fish and asked "I have always heard about the sea, but what is the sea? Where is it?" The Queen explained: "You live, move, and have your being in the sea. The sea is within you and without you, and you are made of sea, and you will end in the sea. The sea surrounds you as your own being."

H.


That's interesting that you presume you know the contents of not just one person's thoughts, but an entire class of individuals! Anyways, it's not a failure of imagination (unless somehow you do have access to the contents of imaginations and, moreover, have criteria for distinguishing their failure or success at the holistic, group level, to boot! Are you God? That would make all of this more sensible!) -- atheists can imagine all sorts of fun things that are compatible with the lack of a theism (e.g., metaphysical worlds with ectoplasm, biological facts about ghosts, a causally connected plurality of worlds -- think Hugh Everett -- or a causally disconnected plurality of worlds -- think David Lewis -- or both together, etc. In fact, with the exception of ectoplasm, in its form outside of analytic metaphysics, anyways, I know that atheists are responsible for originating these ideas and would be happy to namedrop if you're interested). Again, there is no reason to think that these people are inferior in imagination than you, though I do bow to the powers of your imagination for imagining itself so superior! Haha. Indeed, they are and were some of the sharpest and imaginative minds in their fields. Rather, it's the lack of assent to a belief, and not only that, but good reason not to assent. I think you've missed what I'm saying. Undoubtedly you'll reciprocate the former sentence against me (don't do that! it's unimaginative now that I've anticipated it). And I never said that you posited anything that you might, then, consider "laughably inadequate," though I admit I can't predict what is laughable to you since it would seem to be a large category -- you must be ticklish. If you are seeking a constructive exchange of ideas and not some spitting contest between those you deem laughable, unimaginative, and what not, you might do better to construe it as such -- that is, as an exchange -- or refrain from engaging a dullard like myself since your time is better served elsewhere. Forgive me, but, a lot of the language used here is a tad obnoxious, and I'm not sure what purpose wide-ranging parables serve when the domain of discourse is restricted much more finely. I'd have no problem if it was subsequent to an argument of your own, in order to reinforce it, drive it home with poetic force, which would be standard, but you seem to think it serves as a substitute, an ersatz argument. Though, your parable does hint at monism (think Spinoza, maybe), which, in my first post, I mentioned new-found sympathies towards. This isn't necessarily characterized by theism, and especially not so under the word's traditional use. But, of course, I may just not be imaginative enough to see the encompassing meaning (or certainly at least not how you're theoretically cashing it out other than "this idea seems nice and poetic"Pleased. Help me out here! Otherwise, you've a very Cartesian, "you're just not meditating hard enough!", move going on =P Anyways, if for some reason you can't resist from calling the thoughts of other intelligent people, similar to yourself I have no doubt, unimaginative and laughable in further posts, I should be a little courteous to your time and mention that I won't have an interest in responding to them. A mutual level of respect, or something close to it, (after all, we're all trying to figure this thing out together) would be generous of you. Cheers.


When I used to encounter things that made me feel hostile I often found it helpful to look in a mirror and ask myself "why do I feel this way about a collection of symbols on a computer screen?" This can help preserve one's fingertips when replying on forums.

I too have read a few books and can list some important names from the past, but something I discovered a long time ago was that real knowledge of the spiritual sort never comes from a book, words, spoken concepts, or other people in general. It's inside you already, requiring only that you give up such things to see it. So you'll unfortunately have to cast off all your Everetts and Lewises and "analytic metaphysics" and a whole lot of those labels, and a shit-ton of emotions, along with a bunch of definitions and assumptions. When you get that done, you can start contemplating how simple the idea of the "sea" is and how wonderfully it satisfies Occam's Razor when applied to the fish's question. It is its very simplicity that makes it so hard for the fish to see it - it hides in plain sight. It's also beautiful, which is often considered another empirical measure of "truth."

For the record, I never made any particular judgment about any particular person, only concepts. For example, in the way of an explanation, it's not much of a leap to see any view of God as some old guy on a throne in the clouds, with furrowed brow, waiting to judge you for your sins, as absurd and, frankly, hilariously unsophisticated. It's a cop-out, so to speak, to accept such a definition. It's a perfect illustration of the inadequacy of book knowledge when dealing with these huge and fascinating questions.

In any event, your beliefs and opinions are and remain your own. It's up to you how you integrate them and how you react to those of others. Measure them not by how many supporting documents you can scare up in the library but instead by how successfully they increase your happiness and satisfaction with life and your place in it.

H.
 
DMT Psychonaut
#7 Posted : 4/14/2011 5:14:04 AM

Witness to Humanity


Posts: 229
Joined: 13-Mar-2011
Last visit: 23-Apr-2020
Location: Consciousness
Zip wrote:
DMT Psychonaut wrote:
I'm a philosophical zombie! Shocked

How do you know? Razz


For a better lack of conscious experience... I suppose I wouldn't? Laughing
Disclaimer:

All these thoughts,
words arranged in this message,
come from the Tao
and return to the Tao.
Yet they do not touch it.
Each of us will perceive the message,
Yet to each our own interpretation.

I'll see you when the river meets us
 
 
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