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DMT N-Oxide to Freebase DMT Options
 
Viracocha
#21 Posted : 7/30/2008 12:43:09 AM

..still lc..


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That makes perfect sense 69ron, thanks

Just wondering, with a large fan (i know you don't like fans but hear me out) blowing directly on the crystal, the air is very cold. even better a portably air conditioner. Cooling the solution significantly, perhaps this will reduce the amount of n-oxide formed? plus it is very quick so it's not exposed to air for an overly long period of time. Do you think this would be better than leaving it in a large closed room or not?
 

Trippy glass for trippy people.
 
69ron
#22 Posted : 7/31/2008 6:23:59 AM

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I don't know. It's probably better. Does anyone else know?
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
drainlife20
#23 Posted : 8/28/2008 6:48:24 PM

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Ron, what would be the math for this? What kind of zinc/acetone/spice ratio would there be? Could you give an example for 1g? This seems like a good way for people to purify their spice for a bit, before converting to fumarate. Or would converting to fumarate fix it to begin with?
Thanks for reading my dream diary! I hope you found it interesting! LMBO!
 
histones
#24 Posted : 8/28/2008 6:59:37 PM

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Recently I found some Zinc at a health food store, its called "zinc citrate"

on the ingredients it says "Elemental Zinc 50mg ----from 150mg of Zinc Citrate"

other ingredients:
dicalcium phosphate dihydrate
magnesium stearate

will this work?
 
69ron
#25 Posted : 8/28/2008 7:37:05 PM

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No, that zinc is bound to citric acid. It must be pure zinc.
PLEASE DO NOT PM ME.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
69ron
#26 Posted : 8/28/2008 10:57:26 PM

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After careful study, here is the basic method SWIM now uses for converting DMT N-Oxide into DMT.

1) Dissolve 200 mg of DMT N-Oxide in 3 ml of acetic acid (vinegar).
2) Add 200 mg of zinc dust.
3) Mix for 2 hours.
4) Dilute to 10 ml with water and bring the solution up to pH 9.5 or higher with sodium carbonate (or any other base you like).
5) Extract 3 times with 5 ml of DCM (20 ml if using naphtha).
6) Filter the DCM and evaporate to yield slightly less than the theoretical maximum of 184.33 mg of freebase DMT.


Why use 200 mg of zinc dust? The standard is to use 3 molecules of zinc dust for every 1 molecule of alkaloid N-Oxide for this to be very effective. DMT N-Oxide is about 3.12 times heavier than zinc. In terms of molecule count, 200 mg of DMT N-Oxide molecules would be equivalent to 64 mg of zinc molecules. Because we need 3 times as many zinc molecules as N-Oxide molecules, we would need 192 mg of zinc for 200 mg of DMT N-Oxide. Just to make things easy we round it up to 200 mg of zinc for 200 mg of DMT N-Oxide.


Here are the numbers used to calculate that all out:

DMT N-Oxide weighs 204.2684 g/mole.
Zinc weighs 65.38 g/mole.

204.2684 / 65.38 = 3.1243254817987152034261241970021
200 / 3.1243254817987152034261241970021= 64.013817115128918618836785327543
64.013817115128918618836785327543 * 3 = 192.04145134538675585651035598263


Additional miscellaneous info:

1 Mole = 6.02214 ×10^23 = 602,214,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules.
DMT weighs 188.269 g/mole.
Vinegar contains 5 grams of acetic acid per 100 ml of water.
3 ml of vinegar contains about 150 mg of acetic acid.
Acetic acid weighs 60.05 g/mole.

The solubility of freebase DMT in naphtha is about 1 g/100 ml so we need to use more if this solvent is used. DCM holds more DMT than acetone does, and acetone can hold over 10 g/100 ml of freebase DMT. I don’t know what the maximum is that DCM can hold. At some point SWIM will test it out.
PLEASE DO NOT PM ME.
I do not answer PMs! I delete all PMs no matter who they are from, even from a good friend. I don't have time for the PMs. I have very little free time. If you have a question just post it in a threadSmile


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
69ron
#27 Posted : 8/30/2008 1:37:34 AM

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Not much work has been done with ascorbic acid in this area. I don’t know if it will work well. All the pros use zinc. Ascorbic acid apparently has the power to prevent psilocin from oxidizing (into psilocin N-oxide?) by binding to free oxygen, so it might work with DMT N-Oxide if it is strong enough to pull the oxygen off the DMT. If it could, then by mixing the two you’d end up with DMT ascorbate, and dehydroascorbic acid.

You should need about 700 mg of ascorbic acid for every 200 mg of DMT N-Oxide if this is to work at all.

This tech *MIGHT* work but has never been tried:

1) Dissolve 700 mg of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) in 3 ml of water.
2) Add 200 mg of DMT N-Oxide.
3) Mix for 30 minutes producing DMT ascorbate and dehydroascorbic acid.
4) Dilute to 10 ml with water and bring the solution up to pH 9.5 or higher with sodium carbonate (or any other base you like). Now we have a mix of freebase DMT, sodium ascorbate, dehydroascorbic acid, and sodium carbonate.
5) Extract freebase DMT 3 times with 5 ml of DCM (20 ml if using naphtha).
6) Evaporate DCM to yield slightly less than the theoretical maximum of 184.33 mg of freebase DMT.


We use 700 mg of ascorbic acid because we need 517 mg to act as a reducing agent to pull off the oxygen from the DMT N-Oxide, and than 173 mg to form DMT ascorbate (to stabilize it). That’s a total of 690 mg so we round it up to 700 mg to make things simple.

Please let me know if this tech works or not. SWIM never tried this one yet.


Data used for this tech:

Ascorbic acid weighs 176.1241 g/mole

DMT N-Oxide weighs 204.2684 g/mole

204.2684 / 176.1241 = 1.1597981196213351835438761645908

200 / 1.1597981196213351835438761645908 = 172.4438043280311590045254185181

172.4438043280311590045254185181 * 3 = 517.3314129840934770135762555543
PLEASE DO NOT PM ME.
I do not answer PMs! I delete all PMs no matter who they are from, even from a good friend. I don't have time for the PMs. I have very little free time. If you have a question just post it in a threadSmile


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
kemist
#28 Posted : 9/1/2008 10:31:36 AM

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Coschi wrote:
That makes perfect sense 69ron, thanks

Just wondering, with a large fan (i know you don't like fans but hear me out) blowing directly on the crystal, the air is very cold. even better a portably air conditioner. Cooling the solution significantly, perhaps this will reduce the amount of n-oxide formed? plus it is very quick so it's not exposed to air for an overly long period of time. Do you think this would be better than leaving it in a large closed room or not?


Coshi,man you don`t have to panic. ILPT believe that a using fan is a better idea. ILPT would suggest dark doubleroom, just with very little ventilation used(only to avoid detonation)and fan blowing out damps of solvent from surface.

ILPT have a Shocked GREAT IDEA INDEED Shocked ARE YOU RICH? Blowwwwwwww the damps with soda (soft drink ) maker. Just don`t put any liquids, only the cartridge with CO2 and then blow and blow. You will probably spent a lot of cartridges and money, but it will not oxidise dmt. Best doing this on floor, since CO2 (carbon dioxide) is heavier then air it will start fill bottom part of room pushing air(and oxygen higher ).You will defend dmt against agressive Mr. Oxygen
ONE MORE ADVANTAGE. If any lye is presented (like in ILPT experiment)lovely and cool CO2 expanding from the flask would react with NaOH to make less caustic sodium carbonate Na2CO3 and in this point is getting really worthy.

2 NaOH + CO2 -> Na2CO3 + H2O you know. Wink
As a kemist I never met ILPT in physical form and never talk to him. He share his wisdom, trough my mind, telepathicly only. Please don`t prosecute me, for his possible illegal activities. He is bonkers about chemistry and doesn`t even exist in this primitive reality !!!
 
drainlife20
#29 Posted : 9/1/2008 8:29:28 PM

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If you use sodium hydroxide as your base, you'll get some tetrahydroxozincate. I don't know if it's dangerous, but the 3-D molecular diagram makes it look like a swastika! It's an anion, if that helps anybody in the least. It's used in electroplating, and it's not exactly soluble in sodium hydroxide, but it floats around in it pretty dang good. I imagine they dip metal with a current running through it into lye/zinc water to electroplate it.
Thanks for reading my dream diary! I hope you found it interesting! LMBO!
 
drainlife20
#30 Posted : 9/2/2008 11:03:35 AM

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Someone screwed around and didn't measure things and was experimenting a bit. 250mg of very waxy spice was dissolved in 15ml or so, of vinegar. He initially believed that it was dmt n-oxide that dried with just enough good dmt crystals to remain solid. When this substance is placed in a small amount of heated solvent, an orangish puddle forms on the bottom that is much smaller in size compared to when it was solid, and he was able to pull DMT from the wax at least 6 times with heptane. He would then refreeze the pull in one shotglass, and refreeze the waxy puddle with a small amount of solvent in its own shotglass.

This dude now realizes that it's 3ml for a damn good reason, to saturate the infused vinegar with zinc. He imagines taping a test tube to a ceiling fan would be great to accomplish this(or if you have a fast enough fan, as a centrifuge). Well he wasn't really thinking and figured it couldn't hurt to use too much. He's out of pH papers. He added 250mg of zinc, mixed for several hours in way too much vinegar, so the zinc probably didn't get to do the job like it should have. Then he diluted with water, and added a TON of sodium carbonate. CO2 city, tons and tons of bubbles, very much carbonated the liquid. SWIM is not sure if perhaps this made just enough carbonic acid, but a precipitate seemed to form? Or maybe he used too much sodium carbonate and it was just floating around in there and that's what he was seeing. He did a heptane pull from the mix, with absolutely no yield, which brings the confusion. Although he has yet to evap down and reattempt freeze precip. Perhaps the tan waxy substance contained more tannins and fats than anything?

He wasn't very concerned and was willing to lose product due to possible zinc contamination to begin with, and after attempting to recover this product, he gave up. Had to use way too much water and vinegar and didn't want to deal with so much for so little. After filtering the initial mix, he ran a large quantity of water, vinegar, then water again, over the filter containing the zinc and possible dmt precipitate(it didn't bubble in the filter when vinegar was added). The water didn't seem to be dissolving the precipitate, which is even more troubling! If it was sodium carbonate, it would have dissolved a bit. If it was a dmt carbonic salt, I imagine it would have been very water soluble. However, the vinegar did the trick and the flow greatly improved as it broke up the muck. During the first mix, he did notice that there was an oily residue sticking to the sides of the glass, but that didn't happen until after the sodium carbonate was added. Maybe he made soap?

He's pretty sure that he'd like to explore ascorbic acid. Zinc dust is kind of messy and sticks to the side of glass fairly well. Contamination is a big enough possibility with this unless you have the right equipment, and inhaling zinc oxide doesn't seem good.
Thanks for reading my dream diary! I hope you found it interesting! LMBO!
 
69ron
#31 Posted : 10/7/2008 2:17:12 AM

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Through experimentation SWIM learned it's much better to use hydrochloric acid for this reaction than vinegar. It seems to take forever with vinegar. Swim used 300 mg of yellow DMT N-Oxide oil, 20 ml water, 500 mg of zinc, 20 ml 10% hydrochloric acid solution. This is heated to about 50 C and mixed for 2 hours.

SWIM then filtered out the zinc. He then adjusted the pH to 9 with ammonia. Then he extracted 3 times with DCM.

The DCM was removed, leaving pure white DMT. The yield was about 88% of the original amount of DMT N-Oxide. The theoretic yield is 92% (because of the loss of oxygen).

I think the amount of zinc used was very excessive. Too much was recovered. But the process worked very well with little loss of DMT.
PLEASE DO NOT PM ME.
I do not answer PMs! I delete all PMs no matter who they are from, even from a good friend. I don't have time for the PMs. I have very little free time. If you have a question just post it in a threadSmile


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
Noob
#32 Posted : 10/10/2008 7:35:02 AM
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To get zinc dust, could you just use shavings of pennies? Pennies made after 1983 are 97% zinc, they just are copper plated.
 
kemist
#33 Posted : 10/10/2008 7:51:59 AM

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Noob wrote:
To get zinc dust, could you just use shavings of pennies? Pennies made after 1983 are 97% zinc, they just are copper plated.


That`s very good idea of cheap and available source but ILPT is pretty sure that for successful reduction you need fine zinc powder not a shavings!
As a kemist I never met ILPT in physical form and never talk to him. He share his wisdom, trough my mind, telepathicly only. Please don`t prosecute me, for his possible illegal activities. He is bonkers about chemistry and doesn`t even exist in this primitive reality !!!
 
Noob
#34 Posted : 10/10/2008 7:55:18 AM
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kemist- well, I was thinking about a fine metal file to get the shavings
 
kemist
#35 Posted : 10/10/2008 8:50:53 AM

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Noob wrote:
well, I was thinking about a fine metal file to get the shavings


Sounds like hard work Sad to ILPT but you can go for it. ILPT was `shaving` aluminium spoons like that to get fine powder for his pyrotechnical games. It was ages ago ,he was only kid and have had plenty of time. While aluminium has hardness 2,75 grade of Mohs for zinc is it 2,5 grade of Mohs it means zinc is little bit softer and is gonna be easier for swim to prepare fine `shavings`. Good luck.Smile
As a kemist I never met ILPT in physical form and never talk to him. He share his wisdom, trough my mind, telepathicly only. Please don`t prosecute me, for his possible illegal activities. He is bonkers about chemistry and doesn`t even exist in this primitive reality !!!
 
monkeyboy
#36 Posted : 10/24/2008 9:10:55 AM
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69ron wrote:
Through experimentation SWIM learned it's much better to use hydrochloric acid for this reaction than vinegar. It seems to take forever with vinegar. Swim used 300 mg of yellow DMT N-Oxide oil, 20 ml water, 500 mg of zinc, 20 ml 10% hydrochloric acid solution. This is heated to about 50 C and mixed for 2 hours.

SWIM then filtered out the zinc. He then adjusted the pH to 9 with ammonia. Then he extracted 3 times with DCM.

The DCM was removed, leaving pure white DMT. The yield was about 88% of the original amount of DMT N-Oxide. The theoretic yield is 92% (because of the loss of oxygen).

I think the amount of zinc used was very excessive. Too much was recovered. But the process worked very well with little loss of DMT.



What kind of adjustments could be suggested for those who dont own a hotplate or a magnetic stirrer?


Prolly be a waste to do this manually, huh?
 
TmC47
#37 Posted : 2/10/2009 8:40:32 PM

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I was just wondering... SWIM uses Devarda's alloy for Nitrogen determination; an alloy of Cu, Al and Zn with reduction prowess strong enough to rip the Oxygen right off Nitrate. This is done in in highly alkaline solutions. Will this work on DMT-N-Oxide? After a search, it appears there are more Zn forms used in reductions, esp. so-called Rieke-Zinc (in THF, mind you). Any thoughts on these? Just trying to figure out if this step could be done in an STB, for simplicity's sake. Swim will and loves to experiment and is even game to blow a pound or two of bark on this, but it's good to come prepared!
benzyme wrote:
you're preparing drugs, not salad.
 
Dopamine
#38 Posted : 2/14/2009 10:02:50 PM
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If you don't dry it in the open air for an extended period of time you could easily avoid this... Precipitate your freebase from an aqueous solution using a strong base, vacuum filter and then dry in a desiccator over KOH pellets and Na2SO4. Whammo, no amphoteric n-oxides.
 
VisualDistortion
#39 Posted : 2/14/2009 10:05:02 PM

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nice first post
You lock the door, and throw away the key

There's someone in my head but it's not me
 
olderROM
#40 Posted : 2/15/2009 8:39:10 AM

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I had an yellowish oil in a flask with water and xylene that wouldn't easily dissolve into either. However, it was SLOWLY dissolving. I added half a teaspoon of vitamin C crystals and almost immediately it dissolved. It did leave behind a nasty organish scum though but the bulk the oil instantly disappeared. I assumed that this was DMT oxide and that the vitamin C had redoxed it back into DMT.
All of the posts made are hypothetical and for educatiunal/entertainmint purposes only. SWIM (a fictional chaaracter) and his activities are completely fictional.
 
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