CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
123NEXT»
Changa: A smoking blend containing Ayahuasca and other herbs Options
 
chocobeastie
#1 Posted : 2/9/2011 1:56:13 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 343
Joined: 01-Dec-2010
Last visit: 07-Mar-2021
Changa: 
Smoking DMT infused into Ayahuasca and other Herbs


Changa is the colloquial name I gave to a smoking mix containing naturally sourced DMT, Banisteriopsis caapi and various herbs that have a synergistic effect when blended together. Very simply, changa allows people to smoke DMT more easily and to get more from their DMT smoking experience. ‘Dreamleaf’ or just ‘Dreamtime’ are perhaps more formal names that have been given to this material. Yet changa (chang-ah) is very definitely the proper Australian slang name for this blend, which may make some Australians wince and/or smile, and people from other countries to raise an eyebrow or two!

In order to make changa, DMT is simply infused into a blend of herbs that is easily dissolved into alcohol or any form of ethanol. Although it is true that a few people here and there have been dissolving DMT into herbs for many decades, it is the combination of the DMT with ayahuasca vine and the intelligent alchemy of this combination of herbs, similar to an ayahuasca brew, that gives changa its unique nature and power. My preferred method for making changa is to melt the DMT on a plate or tray over a steam bath, then adding a few dozen millilitres of high quality vodka into which the DMT dissolves. The herbs are then added to the tray or the plate and stirred extremely well. The herbs then dry quite quickly, whereas dissolving the DMT into cold ethanol or acetone, and then mixing the herbs, tends to take more time to dry. However, the result is basically the same.

A basic and standard ratio for much of the gentler changa that many people make is around 25% DMT content by weight. So, in one gram of changa at this strength, there is 250 mg of DMT; and within four grams of changa, there is one gram of DMT. This equates to 30 light experiences, 20 pretty decent experiences, 10 much stronger experiences and 5 very strong experiences. However, a 30% blend is stronger, with the 40-50% DMT blends being very strong and equating to, or even exceeding, the strength of smoking freebase DMT by itself. This initial standard ratio of 25 % DMT changa was never designed to provide a fully immersive ‘out of body’ hyperspatial experience. Although, as most people who work with DMT know, sometimes it only takes a little to really take you there. The high dose breakthrough DMT experience is something that many people may only want to visit once or a few times in their life. DMT is normally so strong, so intense, that more is often less.

With 20-30% changa, people can access DMT comfortably in a way that is likely to be beneficial, but not requiring days or years to process the experience. However, for a fully immersive DMT experience, most people generally need to freebase from 50mg to even as much as 150 mg DMT and most people find these sorts of amounts difficult to smoke in a freebase pipe. For that breakthough experience via 20-30 % changa, I would recommend people either quickly smoke two to three successive bong or pipe hits or just take one big pipe. It just depends on how much changa people use in their pipe cone and how refined or coarse the herbs are. With 40-50% DMT changa (there is no reason to go beyond 50% in my opinion), it should only take one good bong or pipe hit to really engage into breakthrough states where dying of astonishment at the nature of the inexpressible is the order of the day.

I generally recommend smoking pure DMT through a water bong and then wedging the amount of DMT you want to smoke between a layer of passionflower and/or finely shredded ayahuasca vine, so that the lighter flame does not make direct contact with the DMT. This is called ‘the sandwich method’. Then you should simply smoke all the herbs in one hit. The efficaciousness of the DMT is quite often dependent on getting the most DMT to the system in the shortest amount of time. That being said, in light of the existence of changa, many are tending to feel that smoked crystal DMT by itself is too disconnected, cerebral, ‘alien’, shortlived and difficult to remember. Whereas, the changa experience is often more integrated, connected and relevant to the human form. This is because the ayahuasca and other herbs assist the DMT to be most relevant to the human system.

Many people around the world are beginning to smoke changa through a pipe device called a ‘vaporgenie’. This pipe is a simple and inexpensive way to vaporise smoking herbs in a small, regular looking pipe. The result is a smoother smoke, that some say is ‘the best way’ to smoke changa. However, myself and many others prefer the immediacy of smoking the herbs, rather than vaporising them. However, many people do prefer to use a vapourgenie or mechanical hand held vapouriser simply because it is much easier to smoke DMT this way.

The primary herb to be used in changa is Banisteriopsis caapi, which should consist of at least 25% of the herbs used in order to be truly effective. Both leaf and vine from the plant can be used, with leaf providing a smoother, cerebral smoke, and the vine itself providing an earthier, often more potent effect. The basic theory in using caapi in changa, is that you are making something of a smokable ayahuasca brew, combining the vine, the DMT and other admixture plants into the whole works to provide a synergistic effect. The admixture plants in ayahuasca brews are typically activated by the presence of the caapi, as by themselves they are not nearly as potent.

I figure that any herb used in changa has its potency increased by a factor of ten. So the herb mullein (a potent lung herb normally drunk as a tea), when smoked in a changa blend, has the potential to give the most fantastic and instantaneous lung healings. This sort of healing has traditionally only been possible with ayahuasca brews.

When available, I prefer combining ayahuasca leaf and vine in various ratios. It is important to shred the vine finely enough so that it burns properly, although powdered vine may often be too fine when combined with other herbs. Good vine will provide a nice afterglow when the experience has worn off, whereas vine leaf will not normally provide this. Cielo or yellow ayahuasca vine is recommended, although any type of caapi will work fine, as long as it is over three to four years old and thicker than a human’s thumb.

The basic theory behind changa is that very small amounts of smoked harmine, even 100 micrograms to 1mg, can effect as much as a 50% MAO-A inhibition and beyond. Furthermore, it is known that caapi extract is 100 to 1000 fold more potent than isolated harmine as an MAO-A inhibitor. (Schwarz et al. 2003) This is why when you use 300mg of Vine or Leaf in 1g of Changa, it can still have a potent effect, not something that many people understand. Because they still think they must always boost the harmine content of changa in order for it to be effective. But if your vine is 1% harmine, 300mg of vine would contain 3mg of harmine. Say if there is 15 medium smoking experience in 1 gram of Changa, this means that 200mcg is in each smoke, plenty enough to effect more than 50% MAO-A inhibition. Even using 300mg of vine per gram of Changa, you can still get 30-40 minute experiences at times. Much of it also depends on the strength of your vine in the first place as well, which of course can vary greatly. This MAO-A inhibition appears to occur as instantaneously, as say, the effects of smoking freebase recreational drugs, such as cocaine or methamphetamine. This MAO-A inhibition enables what previously would be a 5 to 10 minute experience to become more like an 10 to 20 minute experience, or even an experience lasting half an hour to an hour.

Changa has been commonly reported to consist of simply Banisteriopsis caapi leaf and DMT, and this recipe works very well and can have a very smooth quality to it, but this blend, I think, tends to lack the colourful alchemy and flavour of the other admixture herbs. Any herb or plant can be used in changa, and many different herbs are being used by different people around the world in different ratios and blends. It should be kept in mind that the ayahuasca element activates the herbs used, and each new herb may not have the desired effect, or may have an unpredictable effect. As an example, we have noticed that the addition of skullcap at 20 percent of the herbs used tends to put people to sleep immediately after smoking changa!
So, a ‘classic’ and ‘original’ changa blend that has stood the test of time looks something like this:

30% ayahuasca vine and/or leaf
20% mullein
20% passionflower
20% peppermint
5% calendula
5% blue lotus

Both calendula and blue lotus must be added after combining the DMT in order to preserve their colour and texture. Mullein can also be substituted with coltsfoot, another powerful lung herb that tends to have more of an expectorant quality. This can be good for people’s lungs, but can also become a bit snotty and noisy for many people. In general, I prefer mullein because of its fluffy consistency and more benign effect. The passionflower provides another MAOI imprint as well as a nice calming, sedative effect, which counteracts and balances out the awakening and brightening effect of DMT The peppermint is added to smooth out the smoke and give the blend a more pleasant taste. In fact, a good blend should be like not smoking anything at all – it is that transparent. Calendula or marigold is a classic nurturing and all-round healing flower, and is added for the quality of its vibrational support. Blue lotus or lily (or any other psychoactive lilies or lotuses) gives the blend a ‘top note’ and also adds a smoother taste, and can be used to up to about 20% of the mixture. Damiana is another herb that can be used, adding a pleasant warmth and euphoria to the blend. When available, Justicia pectoralis is very nice in changa and is effective at around 10 percent of the herbal content. Justicia seems to have a balancing and smoothing effect upon the body’s utilisation of tryptamines, and its flowers are traditionally added to tryptamine snuffs used in the Amazon.

All the herbs should be ‘groomed’, so that all sticks and inconsistent stems are removed. A coffee grinder can be used on ‘burst’ setting to ensure that the herbs are consistently sized. Some prefer a very fine blend so that more can be smoked in a cone, whereas some prefer a more full-bodied blend with larger herbal bits and pieces.

Some have reported that small amounts of Salvia divinorum leaf in a changa blend brings out the best of this plant. However, I feel this plant is best left to people’s individual relationship, rather than adding it to a blend that many may partake of, as Salvia can tend to take over, with people having full scale salvia experiences, rather than anything like a changa experience. I would say the same regarding the addition of cannabis, which many do not want to partake of. Some people have been adding small amounts of brugmansia or datura flowers to their blend. Interestingly, this flower is added to the ayahuasca brews in the Amazon and is said to increase the visual aspect of the brew. Most curanderos would not even consider taking this plant on its own and consider the usage of this plant in brews as something one must be very careful with, because if you add too much, the effects can be variously undesirable, though not likely dangerously so.

I definitely think that synthetic 5-MeO-DMT should not be combined with MAOI’s at any stage, and again, 5-MeO-DMT is quite strong enough by itself. I am yet to be convinced that any other research chemicals or additives in a changa-like blend are useful or better than natural DMT. However, a herbal blend I dubbed ‘cracker’, containing 5 to 10 percent 5-MeO-DMT, has been found to be a very effective way to dose and smoke 5-MeO-DMT, as it contains classic changa herbs such as mullein, mint and blue lotus. I have not found 5-MeO-DMT to be at all positively affected or enhanced by beta-carbolines from ayahuasca vine or Syrian rue and have personally had very negative experiences combining beta-carbolines with 5-MeO-DMT. The Erowid web site has received several reports of people experiencing very troubling side effects with this combination, and there have even been a few reports of deaths when people take far too much 5-MeO-DMT with an MAOI. I personally think that Syrian rue is an unnecessary addition to changa and the seeds will be quite unpleasant to smoke. Friends have reported that the addition of a simple Manske extract of crystalline harmaline has additional benefits, but this may be too strong for many people, and I have never seen why this would be necessary. I have found that changa blends with added harmalas can be more scattered and less focused than those blends which contain extracted harmine from ayahuasca vine.

Harmine and of course, tetrahydroharmine from the Banisteriopsis caapi vine are the key alkaloids in changa which have a wondrous synergy with DMT in low doses. Friends have been reporting very pleasant effects, by soaking shredded vine and/or leaf in ethanol or alcohol and then making something like a 10X ayahuasca leaf blend with the alkaloids, say from 100 grams of leaf infused into 10 grams of leaf. Again, many find the resulting effect to be too strong or weighted towards heavy, overt body sensations. I personally think that a 2x blend is strong enough, and may be too strong for many. A 2x blend is where for example, you are using 300mg of vine in 1 gram of changa and use the extracted alkaloids (say via soaking the vine in ethanol) from another 300mg of vine infused to the blend. One friend has reported that making a 10x extract from Passionflower is however, a very pleasant and smooth smoke, as the harmine content in passionflower by itself is too weak to be noticeable.

In Australia, we can obtain DMT from many different acacia species, such as the two rather common Australian wattle trees species – Acacia obtusifolia and Acacia acuminata. Acacia obtusifolia is quite strong and visual in its effect and Acacia acuminata is often more gentle and relaxed. People from outside of Australia will generally use Mimosa hostilis root bark, although a friend said to me once quite cheekily that he thought using this DMT source in changa would be like ‘kissing your sister’! Synthetic DMT could be used in changa, although most find naturally sourced DMT to be richer and have a smoother and more integrated imprint of a living organism, which tends to align with the human system and provide the most relevant informational interchange. Each source of DMT is entirely different, with different qualities and ‘teachings’ – simply because each plant species has a different spirit and communication. Don’t take my word for it though. Try half a dozen DMT- containing species a dozen times each and then get back to me!

Changa makes DMT more accessible and available to people, it is not addictive (as DMT is not addictive) and it is largely safe. I have not heard of anyone running into any real trouble with it (whereas, inexperienced and normally uninformed people can sometimes terrify themselves by smoking too much pure DMT). Some people tend to keep reaching back for it, but most people tend to not pursue changa on a regular basis. I think changa is best smoked irregularly to get the most out of it. For some, changa remains purely recreational. Yet we find that, just with DMT, it will continue to take you deeper and deeper the more you smoke it. Some amount of respect is required to get the most out of DMT, which many learn in response to using it. My personal experience is that there is a limit to the number of times I can smoke changa in a row (usually about three or four times), and after that the experience tends to experientially degrade. This does not appear to be at all an issue of physical tolerance, as some people are able to keep smoking for many hours on end, without any lessening of effects. When smoking by oneself, it is good to sit up or lie down and just experience the state. When smoking with other people, it is best to be silent and just experience the state – although dancing or singing is highly appropriate behaviour.

For most people, the initial state will be an expanded state of awareness, similar to the state of LSD or any psychedelic. For many, the next step into the experience will consist of geometric patterns and colours. Others will have visual experiences that tend to be coherent and appear to arise from an ‘alien’ realm rather than being a mere projection of the individual body or mind. For some people, this may involve contact with entities not ordinarily visible to the human eye. These experiences tend to be highly vivid and possibly very transformative, representing one of the more liberating possibilities of smoking DMT. I believe that smoking DMT in this form is particularly beneficial to those from Western cultures, where the existence of other realms or planes of being is generally not considered ‘real’. Changa does combine well with many common psychedelic substances such as LSD, and it can also help a weak ayahuasca brew ‘kick in’ (likely due to the MAOI’s), although I would suggest people who rely on changa for a boost to their ayahuasca experience to simply increase the amount of DMT they are using in their brews.

The general effect of changa is normally quite healing, and the mind, body and psyche tend to become more integrated. DMT, as a meta-neurotransmitter, appears to allow the transmission and modulation of more information between neurons. The mind is stilled, the body quietens, and contact with the ineffable is often made. All this generally works to clear the mind, align the psyche, and fulfil the spirit. People are then able to get on with their lives with more perspective and perhaps more motivation.

It is quite common for people to give up decades-long addictions to substances such as crystal meth or cocaine after smoking changa for the first time. Other individual reports of benefits are quite varied and vast. Precautions related to the presumed toxic effects from taking an MAOI are generally overstated as a danger within the West. In some rare instances, people will report strange reactions and feeling ill from smoking changa with no known MAOI contraindications, and these reactions are as yet unexplainable. However, people who have taken MDMA or those who are taking an SSRI may wish to avoid changa, as there is the possibility of ‘serotonin syndrome’, which occurs when the body is overwhelmed by too much serotonin and in rare instances could be life threatening if not treated.

Smoking changa is probably no more or less detrimental than any other form of smoking, yet I would highlight this as a possible negative aspect which people should be aware of. That being said, DMT is a very powerful catalyst of change. Many people will have their eyes opened in a way they may not feel they have been prepared for. There is normally no way to go back to the previous way of viewing the world, once a new way of perceiving the world has become apparent. Changa can open people’s eyes and allow them a special and novel experience – but it is over the few hours that ayahuasca or other DMT and MAOI preparations lasts where often the greatest amount of inner work can be carried out. That being said, a strong changa journey can take people into places that ayahuasca will not normally be able to. Smoked DMT will almost always result in a clearer and deeper experience than the peak of an ayahuasca journey. I think that this DMT preparation is indeed quite special, and represents a user-friendly medium that can allow access to the medicinal power of plant alchemy and visionary states of great personal value.
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
Eluna
#2 Posted : 2/9/2011 6:43:39 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 143
Joined: 10-Jan-2010
Last visit: 10-Jan-2019
hey J Smile

Good to see you put this out there.

Will be sampling this stuff of yours soon and will be comparing it to my acuminata/bluelotus/caapi/peppermint changa i have mastered over here in the west over the last 2 years and will get back to you..

M
 
Shaolin
#3 Posted : 2/9/2011 11:31:03 AM

Stiletto Stoner

Moderator

Posts: 1132
Joined: 18-Nov-2008
Last visit: 15-Mar-2015
Location: Blazin'
Origins/reasons for choosing the word "Changa" ?

Epic post, thanks for the informaton.
Got GVG ? Mhm. Got DMT ?

Pandora wrote:
Nexus enjoys cutting edge and ongoing superior programming skills of the owner of this site (The Traveler), including recent switching to the .me domain name.


I'm still, I'm still Jenny from the block

Simon Jester wrote:
"WTF n00b, buy the $100 vapor pipe or GTFO"


Ignorance of the law does not protect you from prosecution
 
Dorge
#4 Posted : 2/9/2011 3:48:04 PM

Chen Cho Dorge


Posts: 1781
Joined: 30-Dec-2008
Last visit: 25-Nov-2012
Very glad to see you here choco! This is the man who lent me a hand... Cheers bruddha!
One of my great teachers on this subject!
Dorge is cooperatively owned and cooperatively run by various hyperspacial entities working as a collabertive sentience project for the betterment of sentient exploration.

Offical Changa web sitehttp://changa.esotericpharma.org/


 
endlessness
#5 Posted : 2/9/2011 4:06:47 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 13860
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 21-Apr-2021
Location: Jungle
Thanks for the post! A lot of info there...

A few corrections I feel are very important to make though:

chocobeastie wrote:

However, for that fully immersive experience, most people generally need from 50 to 150mg DMT - and most people find this sort of amount difficult to smoke in a freebase pipe.


50 to 150 mg of dmt?! Only if your smoking method is very very bad! One should vaporize DMT, not burn/smoke it! With effective methods such as the vaporgenie and a torch lighter, one wouldnt even need 50mg for a certain breakthrough, around 30mg would already be plenty. I do not believe people can vaporize more than 50mg (certainly not 150mg) effectively without being completely gone, so if people are needing more than that, I suggest checking other vaporization methods out.

chocobeastie wrote:


Personally, I feel the use of Syrian Rue is an un-necessary addition, and the seeds will largely be quite unpleasant to smoke. Although friends have reported that the addition of a simple Manske extract of crystalline harmaline has additional benefits, this may be too strong for most people though, and I have never seen why this would be necessary.


Manske harmaline as in, harmaline hcl from manske precipitation, or was it freebased after salting? One should convert to freebase before smoking for more effective smoke, I dont suggest smoking salt alkaloids, it might be unnefective and/or harsh.

chocobeastie wrote:

Friends have been reporting very pleasant effects, by soaking or heating up a solvent (such as Acetone or Ethanol) with shredded vine and/or leaf, and then making something like an 10X Ayahuasca Leaf blend, with the alkaloids, say from, 100 grams of leaf, infused into 10 grams of leaf. Although again, many find the resulting effect to be too strong.


I recommend NOT doing this 10x acetone/ethanol/IPA soak because those are all poor solvents for harmalas. Harmalas are very likely in salt form in caapi vine/leaf (some in oxide possibly?) and a significant amount of them will not be picked up by that suggested soak. I recommend rather extracting the harmalas and adding known quantity to the changa instead of doing the soak, or at least not discarding the material after soaking and doing an A/B on it to see if more harmalas can be retrieved.

chocobeastie wrote:

Synthetic DMT could be used, although naturally sourced DMT we find to be richer, have a smoother and more integrated imprint of a living organism, which tends to align with our living organism and provide the most relevant informational interchange. And then, each source of DMT is entirely different, with different qualities and "teachings."


DMT is DMT, wherever it comes from. Considering it is clean of possible impurities, whether it is fatty acids or secondary alkaloids from plants, or other impurities from synthesis, it will be the same thing. Maybe self-suggestion will explain differences felt, and I would think if you made a blind test you couldnt tell them appart. Not to say you should use dmt from other sources, I think you should do exactly as you feel is right, im just expressing what I felt reading your post Smile

chocobeastie wrote:


The point of Changa is that the high dose DMT experience is something that people may only want to visit once or a few times in their life. With Changa, people can access DMT comfortably, in a way that is likely to be beneficial, but not require days or years of defragging!

(...)

And it is largely safe; I have not heard of anyone running into any trouble with it. (whereas, inexperienced and normally uninformed people can sometimes scare themselves by smoking too much pure DMT)

Toxicity, in regards to reduced MAOI levels have not been reported from Changa. There has yet to be any reports of anything like a hypertensive crisis from people using Changa. MAOI toxicity is generally overrated as a "danger" within the west, and is more likely to be something each individual has to ascertain for themselves. In rare instances, people will report feeling ill from smoking changa, with no known MAO counter indications.

Changa does tend combine well with many basic psychedelic substances such as LSD and MDMA




Not to sound harsh but what you are saying is highly irresponsible! While MAOI food diet with harmalas is not really a problem, as we say in our FAQ, harmalas + SSRI or amphetamines (including mdma) is a VERY BIG NO-NO! People have had serious serotonin poisoning because of it, and just because you havent experienced it yourself or friends yet doesnt mean its safe for everybody. Please do not ever recommend MAOIs + amphetamines, even in vaporized form.

Also, just because DMT is diluted with other herbs and the experience seems more spread out does not mean at all it is easier to deal with psychologically. People can equally have troubled experiences with changa. Of course maybe low doses and innefective smoking methods will make it harder for one to have a strong scary experience but this isnt necessarily a characteristic of changa but rather how much you use and how effective you vaporize it. So all our recommendations and warnings in the Health and Safety section still stand, whether its changa, pure dmt or whatever.


I hope you take my words not as an offense but as constructive criticism and honest worry about others. Im sure you are an experienced person and do not mean bad, but please understand where im coming from with my words and the importance of what we say to the safety of others
 
jamie
#6 Posted : 2/9/2011 6:08:34 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growingSenior Member | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growing

Posts: 12297
Joined: 12-Nov-2008
Last visit: 04-Apr-2021
Location: turtle island
"People from outside of Australia will generally be using Mimosa Hostilis Root Bark, although a friend said to me once, said he thought using this plant in Changa would be like "kissing your sister!" "

..uhhh...What?Confused ..never kissed my sister so I wouldnt know..Very happy

I agree with endless..if you need 50-150mg to break through there is something off with your technique...especially if harmalas are present.

 
Dorge
#7 Posted : 2/9/2011 8:53:52 PM

Chen Cho Dorge


Posts: 1781
Joined: 30-Dec-2008
Last visit: 25-Nov-2012
Well they have been making and smoking Changa since 2003 I think they know what they are doing down there... But I do disagree MHRB is wonderful... Though I've not had the pleasure of working with acacia spice.
Dorge is cooperatively owned and cooperatively run by various hyperspacial entities working as a collabertive sentience project for the betterment of sentient exploration.

Offical Changa web sitehttp://changa.esotericpharma.org/


 
jamie
#8 Posted : 2/9/2011 9:07:39 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growingSenior Member | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growing

Posts: 12297
Joined: 12-Nov-2008
Last visit: 04-Apr-2021
Location: turtle island
I was planning on growing obtusifolia, I think..I think obtusifolia was the one that can handle temporate climates..maybe just get really huge pots and grow them outdoors and bring them in when it snows or drops way below zero...usaully it stays above zero here in vancouver though..mimosa too but that will be indoors all winter..

Local plants would be cool..but so far phalaris hasnt worked out too well for me..this spring though I will start harvesting again and try to get something interesting from the stuff.

 
Dorge
#9 Posted : 2/9/2011 9:54:39 PM

Chen Cho Dorge


Posts: 1781
Joined: 30-Dec-2008
Last visit: 25-Nov-2012
Hi frac!! Have you though of trying demanthus? They are used to really cold temps I believe and if you had them in a hot house not a bad idea.... Damn never thought of that hot house chacruna instead of tomatoes!
More people need to put energy into local alternatives and growing the plants...
Dorge is cooperatively owned and cooperatively run by various hyperspacial entities working as a collabertive sentience project for the betterment of sentient exploration.

Offical Changa web sitehttp://changa.esotericpharma.org/


 
jamie
#10 Posted : 2/9/2011 11:05:09 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growingSenior Member | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growing

Posts: 12297
Joined: 12-Nov-2008
Last visit: 04-Apr-2021
Location: turtle island
Dorge wrote:
Hi frac!! Have you though of trying demanthus? They are used to really cold temps I believe and if you had them in a hot house not a bad idea.... Damn never thought of that hot house chacruna instead of tomatoes!
More people need to put energy into local alternatives and growing the plants...


Yes I had 20 desmanthus going last spring but they got burned on a really hot day when they were still only about 1.5 inches tall..I have a whole bag of seeds here though and 100 mimosa seeds and some caapi seeds so all of those will be started very soon, and we have big bay windows here that are perfect for plants..my salvia plants love it but they dont need as much direct light so we will see how the desmanthus and mimosa do..
 
Dorge
#11 Posted : 2/9/2011 11:26:14 PM

Chen Cho Dorge


Posts: 1781
Joined: 30-Dec-2008
Last visit: 25-Nov-2012
That's great your growing them!!! It shows commitment and real responsabiliy I think!
Dorge is cooperatively owned and cooperatively run by various hyperspacial entities working as a collabertive sentience project for the betterment of sentient exploration.

Offical Changa web sitehttp://changa.esotericpharma.org/


 
endlessness
#12 Posted : 2/9/2011 11:39:14 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 13860
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 21-Apr-2021
Location: Jungle
elru wrote:
endlessness wrote:

Not to sound harsh but what you are saying is highly irresponsible! While MAOI food diet with harmalas is not really a problem, as we say in our FAQ, harmalas + SSRI or amphetamines (including mdma) is a VERY BIG NO-NO! People have had serious serotonin poisoning because of it, and just because you havent experienced it yourself or friends yet doesnt mean its safe for everybody. Please do not ever recommend MAOIs + amphetamines, even in vaporized form.


I posted in that thread to ask for more details. Observant was diagnosed with substance related cramping, not serotonin syndrome and has a history of seizures that started well before s/he used harmalas. While low doses of smoked harmalas might be able to cause serotonin syndrome I don't think it's accurate to cite Observant's experience as proof of it. I'm not saying that we should thus go out and snort a bunch of coke while smoking grams of harmalas, but I'm having trouble finding much information about harmalas specifically, not just MAOI in general causing serotonin syndrome.

In another thread ouro mentioned that THH is both an SSRI and an MAOI. If that's true and this harmala danger is as real as it's being presented as, then drinking large doses of ayahuasca is something that needs to be strongly discouraged. : p

Again, I don't want to encourage wild experimentation with possibly dangerous interactions. I don't have much background in chemistry, biology, or medicine. I just think that the risks of harmalas & serotonin syndrome might not be as clear as they're sometimes presented as here.


Thanks for clarifying this!

I did not know observant had a history of seizures. I agree that his/her case is no proof but I think it begs caution in any case.

Regarding THH being an SSRI and MAOI, it is a weak SSRI, I dont think it compares to pharmaceutical SSRIs which have this strong reuptake inhibition as their main effect. Plus we have a long history of usage of thh-containing brews with harmalas and dmt, which we couldnt say the same about mixing harmalas and amphetamines or SSRIs. Anybody going down that road is treading on possibly very dangerous areas.

You are right it might be not as dangerous as we may think, but then again, it might be dangerous indeed.. How to find out? I guess careful scientific investigation would be the best. Though it might not be as problematic as we suggest, I would say that before we know for sure, its better being prudent and not recommending than directly recommending amphetamines+smoked MAOIs as good. Or at least better add a disclaimer that says people should proceed with caution and if theres any sign of side effects discontinue usage immediately. Or do you disagree?

Edit: Just looked up moclobemide and serotonin syndrome. Moclobemide is also a RIMA like harmalas, not an irreversible MAOI, and just like harmalas has no interaction with food. And yet there are reported deaths with mixing moclobemide and SSRIs or other anti-depressants, as well as reported deaths of people using MDMA with moclobemide. Im attaching a publication about it to this post. So please, I strongly advice not mixing harmalas and mdma or other stimulants or SSRI medication
 
Observant
#13 Posted : 2/10/2011 12:16:09 AM

Nothing Stops The Void


Posts: 739
Joined: 19-Jun-2008
Last visit: 26-Nov-2013
Location: Blinded by the Lye
Just to correct this , I didnt tell the doctor exactly what i had taken , so he guessed his diagnosis.
And i had 3 seizures in my life 2 of them where with harmalas in my body .

Harmalas + MDMA induced Toxicity is something we can be pretty sure about , its just a question of the dose Imho ,and some will react negatively to lower doses , some need higher doses of each for a negative reaction , but it seems logical to me that this is to be avoided and unnecessary.


About the THH thing Elru, i made a thread about this you must have overseen( https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=18410 )
Had he more quickly realized just who they were,he would have shown them more respect.Had he tried harder to fathom their brilliant minds,he would have taken more of their teachings to heart.Had he more clearly understood the purpose of their being,
he would have more vigorously tried to assist them.They were truly honorable; he was sadly prejudiced.
They were exceedingly well informed; he was grossly ignorant.They were totally indefatigable; he so often, and so quickly,gave up. Still, for many years there was a strong inter-species alliance between the Eleven-Eleven of the Half-way Realm, their Seraphic Associates,and their flesh-and-blood friend, a common mortal. Much was accomplished, many profited, and, there’s only one regret...They could have achieved so much more...

All Hypnotizing Hypnotizes Hypnotizing
 
Dorge
#14 Posted : 2/10/2011 2:12:40 AM

Chen Cho Dorge


Posts: 1781
Joined: 30-Dec-2008
Last visit: 25-Nov-2012
Ayahuasca and Changa combined with iboga as well in a separate situation were a freind smoked Changa with Kanna and had a total seratonin syndrome experience.
Dorge is cooperatively owned and cooperatively run by various hyperspacial entities working as a collabertive sentience project for the betterment of sentient exploration.

Offical Changa web sitehttp://changa.esotericpharma.org/


 
chocobeastie
#15 Posted : 2/11/2011 4:26:23 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 343
Joined: 01-Dec-2010
Last visit: 07-Mar-2021
The name came through during an Ayahuasca session. Before that we just called it smoking mix!

I have learnt an incredible amount regarding the human ego since coming up with this formula. :-)

>50 to 150 mg of dmt?! Only if your smoking method is very very bad! One should vaporize DMT, not burn/smoke it!

Well, that is in an ideal world perhaps, that most don't live in.

>With effective methods such as the vaporgenie and a torch lighter, one wouldnt even need 50mg for a certain breakthrough, around 30mg would already be plenty. I do not believe people can vaporize more than 50mg (certainly not 150mg) effectively without being completely gone, so if people are needing more than that, I suggest checking other vaporization methods out.

I've talked to many hundreds of people. Some do need 150mg!

In Australia, DMT is commonly smoked in a bong layered in between herbs.

This is a pretty good smoking method, certainly less unweildly that Gracie and Zarkov techniques with a glass pipe that many still reference!

>Manske harmaline as in, harmaline hcl from manske precipitation, or was it freebased after salting? One should convert to freebase before smoking for more effective smoke, I dont suggest smoking salt alkaloids, it might be unnefective and/or harsh.

Well, this is what people are doing, have done.

>I recommend NOT doing this 10x acetone/ethanol/IPA soak because those are all poor solvents for harmalas. Harmalas are very likely in salt form in caapi vine/leaf (some in oxide possibly?) and a significant amount of them will not be picked up by that suggested soak. I recommend rather extracting the harmalas and adding known quantity to the changa instead of doing the soak, or at least not discarding the material after soaking and doing an A/B on it to see if more harmalas can be retrieved.

This is merely a commentary on what people have done.

We are dealing with largely Harmine in vine btw, not harmalas.

Very few people are going to be sophisticated enough to carry out these basification processes. I would suggest for the most part, they are un-necessary, which is my basic gist.

The guy who innovated the 10x caapi extract, gave it to his friends and they all decided it was too strong. For sure it is something to experiment with and some people may like it.

>DMT is DMT, wherever it comes from. Considering it is clean of possible impurities, whether it is fatty acids or secondary alkaloids from plants, or other impurities from synthesis, it will be the same thing. Maybe self-suggestion will explain differences felt, and I would think if you made a blind test you couldnt tell them appart. Not to say you should use dmt from other sources, I think you should do exactly as you feel is right, im just expressing what I felt reading your post

I beg to differ.

DMT is NOT DMT. Any of the well experienced people in the tryptamine scene in Australia agree upon this, because we have many different sources of DMT from many different plants and each plant has a different kind of communication, a different set of visual themes/qualities/effects and the nature of visual experience changes completely depending on the plant.

With double blind tests of pure DMT from natural sources I bet experienced plant heads here would be able to determine the difference - especially between synthetic DMT and naturally source DMT.

>Not to sound harsh but what you are saying is highly irresponsible! While MAOI food diet with harmalas is not really a problem, as we say in our FAQ, harmalas +SSRI or amphetamines (including mdma) is a VERY BIG NO-NO! People have had serious serotonin poisoning because of it, and just because you havent experienced it yourself or friends yet doesnt mean its safe for everybody. Please do not ever recommend MAOIs + amphetamines, even in vaporized form.

I've given friends Ayahuasca brews while they were on MDMA, just to see what would happen. (all in the name of science!)

They were fine.

I have taken very large doses of Moclobomide with very large doses of MDMA and I was fine.

So, the warnings are a little overstated I believe.

Smoking Changa while on an SSRI means that the effect may be lessened often and the person may get a headache or something like that. Sure, there might be a chance of seratonin syndrome, but I have not heard of this yet!

With one girl, I gave her Syrian Rue and Acacia, while on an SSRI and it worked very well indeed, with no negative reports. Later when she took Caapi brews, the brews simply didn't work.

Let's not play it *too* safe and just stay in the shallow end. I believe this is quite a Nth American cultural meme where litigative practises abound, which can really prevent exploration and discovery.

What I'm really trying to do is allay fear (which causes as much trouble as it attempts to prevent I feel), because what we are dealing with here is a great medicine.

Like many medicines it may have contraindications and individuals may form an individual reaction that may be negative to them. Unfortunately, I have not had a $100 million dollar budget to fully explore all the variables of its possible contraindications and reactions with all food stuffs and people.


>Also, just because DMT is diluted with other herbs and the experience seems more spread out does not mean at all it is easier to deal with psychologically. People can equally have troubled experiences with changa.

You are right here. It is quite uncommon, but it still happens. There is an implicit paradigm shift often involved with DMT.

There will be some editing.

>Of course maybe low doses and innefective smoking methods will make it harder for one to have a strong scary experience but this isnt necessarily a characteristic of changa but rather how much you use and how effective you vaporize it. So all our recommendations and warnings in the Health and Safety section still stand, whether its changa, pure dmt or whatever.

well, many people smoke Changa in a joint by itself that is passed around.

>I hope you take my words not as an offense but as constructive criticism and honest worry about others. Im sure you are an experienced person and do not mean bad, but please understand where im coming from with my words and the importance of what we say to the safety of others

Sure, I appreciate your efforts and comments and will amend this piece in time.

 
Dorge
#16 Posted : 2/11/2011 2:50:03 PM

Chen Cho Dorge


Posts: 1781
Joined: 30-Dec-2008
Last visit: 25-Nov-2012
That's great to know the word Changa came out of an aya session.
Dorge is cooperatively owned and cooperatively run by various hyperspacial entities working as a collabertive sentience project for the betterment of sentient exploration.

Offical Changa web sitehttp://changa.esotericpharma.org/


 
Observant
#17 Posted : 2/11/2011 3:39:21 PM

Nothing Stops The Void


Posts: 739
Joined: 19-Jun-2008
Last visit: 26-Nov-2013
Location: Blinded by the Lye
Quote:
I have learnt an incredible amount regarding the human ego since coming up with this formula. :-)

Arent you that australian guy who is selling tons of changa to ravers all over the world via his Bong shop, to everybody whos willing to pay ?

When i saw the offer sign at your shop in Portugal i thought to myself , changa which is that cheap would probably be void of Harmalas and too much dmt, anyway ...

Quote:

I've given friends Ayahuasca brews while they were on MDMA, just to see what would happen. (all in the name of science!)
I have taken very large doses of Moclobomide with very large doses of MDMA and I was fine.

Rolling eyes
So you regularly pass on bad advice and conduct experiments with your customers... are you sure you havent harmed one or two of your thousands of customers with this attitude?
Are you also distributing "Perma-Rolls" (moclobemide+mdma) ?? Twisted Evil

Had he more quickly realized just who they were,he would have shown them more respect.Had he tried harder to fathom their brilliant minds,he would have taken more of their teachings to heart.Had he more clearly understood the purpose of their being,
he would have more vigorously tried to assist them.They were truly honorable; he was sadly prejudiced.
They were exceedingly well informed; he was grossly ignorant.They were totally indefatigable; he so often, and so quickly,gave up. Still, for many years there was a strong inter-species alliance between the Eleven-Eleven of the Half-way Realm, their Seraphic Associates,and their flesh-and-blood friend, a common mortal. Much was accomplished, many profited, and, there’s only one regret...They could have achieved so much more...

All Hypnotizing Hypnotizes Hypnotizing
 
Dorge
#18 Posted : 2/11/2011 4:56:01 PM

Chen Cho Dorge


Posts: 1781
Joined: 30-Dec-2008
Last visit: 25-Nov-2012
No he isn't.... Be nice.
Dorge is cooperatively owned and cooperatively run by various hyperspacial entities working as a collabertive sentience project for the betterment of sentient exploration.

Offical Changa web sitehttp://changa.esotericpharma.org/


 
Observant
#19 Posted : 2/11/2011 5:24:21 PM

Nothing Stops The Void


Posts: 739
Joined: 19-Jun-2008
Last visit: 26-Nov-2013
Location: Blinded by the Lye
Dorge wrote:
No he isn't.... Be nice.


Wink sure.... he isnt... selling permarolls

Had he more quickly realized just who they were,he would have shown them more respect.Had he tried harder to fathom their brilliant minds,he would have taken more of their teachings to heart.Had he more clearly understood the purpose of their being,
he would have more vigorously tried to assist them.They were truly honorable; he was sadly prejudiced.
They were exceedingly well informed; he was grossly ignorant.They were totally indefatigable; he so often, and so quickly,gave up. Still, for many years there was a strong inter-species alliance between the Eleven-Eleven of the Half-way Realm, their Seraphic Associates,and their flesh-and-blood friend, a common mortal. Much was accomplished, many profited, and, there’s only one regret...They could have achieved so much more...

All Hypnotizing Hypnotizes Hypnotizing
 
endlessness
#20 Posted : 2/11/2011 6:35:40 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 13860
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 21-Apr-2021
Location: Jungle
Observant wrote:
Quote:
I have learnt an incredible amount regarding the human ego since coming up with this formula. :-)

Arent you that australian guy who is selling tons of changa to ravers all over the world via his Bong shop, to everybody whos willing to pay ?

When i saw the offer sign at your shop in Portugal i thought to myself , changa which is that cheap would probably be void of Harmalas and too much dmt, anyway ...

Quote:

I've given friends Ayahuasca brews while they were on MDMA, just to see what would happen. (all in the name of science!)
I have taken very large doses of Moclobomide with very large doses of MDMA and I was fine.

Rolling eyes
So you regularly pass on bad advice and conduct experiments with your customers... are you sure you havent harmed one or two of your thousands of customers with this attitude?
Are you also distributing "Perma-Rolls" (moclobemide+mdma) ?? Twisted Evil



Observant, while I agree with your criticism regarding the moclobemide+mdma and giving to others dangerous advices, I think there are better ways of giving constructive criticism. Also chocobeastie should be well aware how against we are of selling these substances, but unless you are sure of what you are saying, better not make accusations of this kind here in the forum.

chocobeastie wrote:

Well, that is in an ideal world perhaps, that most don't live in.

I've talked to many hundreds of people. Some do need 150mg!

In Australia, DMT is commonly smoked in a bong layered in between herbs.

This is a pretty good smoking method, certainly less unweildly that Gracie and Zarkov techniques with a glass pipe that many still reference!


Its not about being an ideal world, its about getting the right smoking method. I know that bong and herb sandwhich (or changa bong) is an ok method, Ive done it several times before I got my now-preffered technique. But I also know for a fact that its much more wasteful than a vaporgenie and torch lighter, you burn and not vaporize with that stated method, as opposed to perfect clean vaporization with the genie. I heartily recommend it to you, if you and your friends need 150mg and you buy a genie, it will very quickly pay for the investment in the amount of dmt you will be saving. If you dont believe me, just ask any one who ever tried it Pleased

chocobeastie wrote:


Well, this is what people are doing, have done.


Fine, I understand, but just because people do something doesnt mean you should recommend it, specially if its a recommendation that leads to waste of good active alkaloids.

chocobeastie wrote:

We are dealing with largely Harmine in vine btw, not harmalas.


Harmine is also poorly soluble in IPA, try it yourself to dissolve pure harmine (freebase but specially salt forms) in IPA

Also, harmine can often be the main alkaloid in Rue. I've had rue that was only a quarter harmaline and 3/4 harmine (though sometimes I also had rue that was mostly harmaline and a bit of harmine. In any case the chemical reasoning for my suggestion is equally valid)

chocobeastie wrote:

Very few people are going to be sophisticated enough to carry out these basification processes. I would suggest for the most part, they are un-necessary, which is my basic gist.


Well firstly, its very simple processes, simply add food-safe sodium carbonate and filter, even to make your simple breakfast it will take more work and trouble. Secondly, even if most people arent going to do it, if you know that the way they do it is wasteful, dont you consider it even an obligation to at least tell them that they will be wasting alkaloids and educate on the other possibilities? I mean, if they in the end dont want to do it, fine, but at least they know about it. And if you are posting in a forum to spread a certain information that other people might use, I think it would be reasonable to consider this, dont you?

chocobeastie wrote:


The guy who innovated the 10x caapi extract, gave it to his friends and they all decided it was too strong. For sure it is something to experiment with and some people may like it.



Again, Im not saying its not active, but im recommending better do more soaks and I suggest to anyone that wants to make sure they are not wasting alkaloids, to at least once in life do an A/B in vine later and see if anything crashes out. If it doesnt, then at least they know it for themselves and arent just following someone's words Smile


chocobeastie wrote:

I beg to differ.

With double blind tests of pure DMT from natural sources I bet experienced plant heads here would be able to determine the difference - especially between synthetic DMT and naturally source DMT.



And I bet otherwise, so why dont we put it in practice and actually do the double blind tests? I think it would be fascinating scientific experiment and whatever results show up I would be highly interested to read, wouldnt you? Much better than speculating IMO... Do you think you or others would be willing to do the experiments ? I try to suggest a structure for these tests here, maybe you can help us in developing more knowledge for the community there Smile

chocobeastie wrote:


I've given friends Ayahuasca brews while they were on MDMA, just to see what would happen. (all in the name of science!)

They were fine.

I have taken very large doses of Moclobomide with very large doses of MDMA and I was fine.

So, the warnings are a little overstated I believe.

Smoking Changa while on an SSRI means that the effect may be lessened often and the person may get a headache or something like that. Sure, there might be a chance of seratonin syndrome, but I have not heard of this yet!

With one girl, I gave her Syrian Rue and Acacia, while on an SSRI and it worked very well indeed, with no negative reports. Later when she took Caapi brews, the brews simply didn't work.

Let's not play it *too* safe and just stay in the shallow end. I believe this is quite a Nth American cultural meme where litigative practises abound, which can really prevent exploration and discovery.


You are just giving me anecdotal evidence of some people that didnt have a problem (yet..). Did you even read the publication I posted? Its a fact that people have died from moclobemide to potentiate MDMA. Im sorry but you cannot give this recommendation in this forum, its just irresponsible unless you give some hard evidence to back up what youre saying. There's no way we want people dying because of following some recommendation on the nexus so I ask you to remove this from your first post or at least say the anecdotes of the cases of people didnt die and had a good time but adding a giant red warning that people have died and that in this forum we do not recommend it.

chocobeastie wrote:


What I'm really trying to do is allay fear (which causes as much trouble as it attempts to prevent I feel), because what we are dealing with here is a great medicine.

Like many medicines it may have contraindications and individuals may form an individual reaction that may be negative to them. Unfortunately, I have not had a $100 million dollar budget to fully explore all the variables of its possible contraindications and reactions with all food stuffs and people.


Knowing the specific obvious dangers has nothing to do with denying the great value of certain substances. You dont need a 100 million dollar budget to research the chemical pathway that makes ingesting MAOI with SSRIs or Amphetamines dangerous, specially if you can just go to pubmed or google scholar and pull up reports where people have died from this.

Again, nothing is meant as an offense but I consider some points very important to emphasize here, to try to make the quality of information in this forum as best as possible.
 
123NEXT»
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.212 seconds.