Each with different sites, smells and laws of physics

In my experience saliva was fun at first and it slowly grew darker and darker for me as time goes on. i have to say salvia is probably the most horrific thing that has ever happend to me. DMT to me is a complete opposite of salvia. DMT and salvia are in a way polar opposites to me DMT is the light in this foul world and salvia is what brings the darkness in even faster. Im very aware that many people like salvia, but salvia scared me off long ago

I don't have much experience with salvia but for me DMT has a lot of light but salvia has a lot of confusion.

So comparing the two would be like comparing light and confusion :Þ

Couldn't agree more.

I find the main difference between DMT and Salvia for me is that I find DMT to be very spiritual and an extremely good teacher. I will come back from a DMT trip having learnt a very good lesson about myself. However I find that coming back from a Salvia trip, it takes me a long time to understand or comprehend what has happened. Salvia seems to me to be extremely random.

However these two mixed together at the right ratio (1 : 4 | Salvia : DMT) can produce very visual and emotional travels.

I haven't actually used Salvia enough to make a conclusion on it, but I think I know how I feel about it. I tried salvia before I ever indulged in spice. I agree that confusion is a key word. I often feel like 'something is going on' that I don't know about. I've only done salvia around groups of people unfortunately, however, the group always provided support and tried to comfort me, but I feel very estranged and distant. Every time I smoke some, I have this sinking feeling and think to myself "Why the hell did I smoke salvia again?".
Perhaps I will enter the experience with intent next time around, but I feel I may end up being cosmically trolled on.

DMT on the other hand, while I have had feedback loops on it, and a few rude experiences of ego destruction. . I have always come out better and with a sense of gaining something. I could exalt dmt for a few pages, while salvia I could write a bit about, but it would mainly be drawbacks and reasons for why I don't try and go deeper. The body sensations can often be far too much for me on salvia. I feel so hot and prickly. Dmt, I'm left with my chakras buzzing, and the cells of my being vibrating in glee.
One of these days, perhaps Ill dive deep into another salvia experience, but for now, I feel there's more accessible wisdom through other psychointegrators.

Oh geez salvia is something. It is somthing to experience but dmt on the other hand when you smoke that it is the smoke of god going into your lungs and flooding your brain

Hi Folks,

Form my vantage point, Salvia Divinorum and DMT share certain parallels in terms of intensity, sudden onset and duration. Both shatter the acquired fixation we habitually conceptualize as REALITY. There the similarity ends.

Lady Saliva takes you to the "other side" of self. Dreams, reality and the ever-changing illusion of dimension, blend into an abstract objectivity that evades conclusive definition. Becoming the internal perception of the being of inanimate objects, sensations of color and light... or even getting lost in textural sensations of an endlessly looping vision of objectivity. It is quite an interesting perspective-altering journey. In it's highest state of power, this reveals an immense interconnectedness to all substance and the shadow of substance. Oddly enough, this translates as an almost plasticine, 2 & 1/2 dimensional dream-scape. This can lead anywhere a soul can possibly imagine. I think this is most certainly, the interaction from the plant to the individual. I was awakened to the sheer indivisibility of substance and object. Very bizarre frequency of consciousness. I am certain it plays heavily with the third eye and can trigger a dissociation from the concrete boundaries of our mirage of self-orientation. It is, at best, a unique viewpoint into the play of existence. At worst, it is confusing, cold, terrifying and most alien.

Dimitry seems to burst our tiny bubble of self-isolation and instantly shatters our limited, preconceived range of awareness. This mirrors Salvia in many ways. In complete surrender to such a force, one is multi-dimensionalized into the absolute awakening of the Godhead. You know, one becomes fused to and vividly connected to... the ONENESS OF ALL BEING? I am convinced that DMT is a super-spiritual Medicine. It allowed the being that I have seemingly become (or believe I am), to perceive Infinity and the unbound consciousness of purest Being. Surely this is the threshold of enlightenment? Upon perceiving the electrifying, spiralling fractal dance of this immense, luminous force of indivisible energy... an inevitable surrender to the clarity of such an inspiring moment is blossomed. There is a definite purpose to existence and DMT strips away everything else that limits this attunement.

Thinking back, I cannot recall hearing too many sonic effects from my voyages with the Diviner's Sage. Mostly visual, as I remember it. Yes, there was the buzzing and crackling of that force which underlies all of creation and an eerie, background whirring drone (as is to be expected form a psychedelic herb). Under the powerful intoxication of DMT crystals, I heard, steadily, the more and more intense ringing tone of the Carrier Wave, in ever increasing degrees!!! This merged/dissipated into the droning whir of the Word (AUM), as with our allies cacti & shrooms (phens and tryps). Still, I kept hearing this high, pure ringing tone throughout the DMT experience. Undulating or perhaps under-toning, this high tone was the buzzing vibration which always accompanies a breakthrough experience. This motor-like droning sound, pulls one into further and still further, frequencies of primal cosmic awareness. Ultimately, it vibrates the witness into a billion specks of light and then, into a sublime silence (which is so all-pervasive within the emptiness of the Void).

Overall, I have found that the two are most unique and quite distinct. Salvia Divinorum can turn you upside down, inside out and project you into a state of complete non-self and total objectivity. She reveals alternate worlds within the fabric of a broad range of sentient thought and awareness. DMT is a rocket ship to the Eternal Cosmic Mind. Wherein, one can see the interconnectedness of the Grid and fully awaken to the multidimensional synchronicity of all of existence. It precipitates the opening of the crown chakra and explodes the barriers which limit consciousness. These are two very diverse roads to travel. Or should I say, "flights to take"?

One cannot judge or qualify either exchange but I personally prefer the crystalline clarity and light-saturated euphoria that DMT graces one with. That being said, I deeply respect and even FEAR them both. A I do LSD, Mescal and psilocybin mushrooms. Hey, what ego doesn't tremble before the self-obliteration of the Sacred Anointment? One thing is for sure, they are each psychedelic and quite potent. I truly believe they have many lessons to teach us. As does every circumstance we encounter, of course. In short, they are both gifted to Humanity by the Creator and I would be a fool's fool, to ever take them for granted. In this way, we are all blessed. Careful and dignified respect will yield an abundance of light, knowledge, awakening and transcendence.

Peace, Love & Light... Rising Spirit

..

Very well put

Something people seem to forget to mention when discussing this subject is that they are an entirely different class of drugs. Salvia is a dissociative/deliriant - DMT is a psychedelic. Comparing Salvia and Ketamine for example would be reasonable, comparing Salvia and DMT isn't really - it's like comparing datura and LSD - sure, both of them make you see things, but they're very different drugs.

I think the comparison should be made with DMT and all dissociatives rather than Salvia in particular, as with the correct dosages, DXM, PCP and Ketamine can take you to the same places Salvia takes you to. The key similarity here being that dissociatives and DMT can both allow you to "break through" into an alternate reality of some kind. Still, vastly different though.

One big difference is that as Salvia has a deliriant aspect to it, it can be a lot more unpleasant than other similarly useful dissociatives such as high doses of Ketamine. Psychedelics such as DMT on the other hand are extremely euphoric - making them more appropriate for "regular visits" to the other side.

I think the best way to compare them is to try them both.

I have tried them both – hundreds of times. And I can say from experience that it isn’t as simple as you make it seem.

Salvia, at reasonable dose levels, is not necessarily unpleasant. It can be very pleasant. I wouldn’t say I’ve ever experienced extreme euphoria with salvia, but it is generally pleasant. And for me, when it is unpleasant, it is mildly so and the unpleasantness fades very quickly.

DMT can be extremely euphoric, but it isn’t reliably or routinely so. DMT can also be extremely unpleasant, much more so than salvia (at least for me). And the psychological trauma brought about by an unpleasant DMT experience lingers – sometimes for days.

When preparing to smoke salvia, I am never anxious or afraid. When preparing to smoke DMT, there is often a certain amount of fear present – sometimes strong enough to lead me to abort the experience altogether.

At reasonable doses, salvia produces an experience whose intensity is reliably correlated with the size of the dose – as dose goes up, intensity goes up in a very predictable manner. This is not true with DMT – even the same size dose taken on different occasions can produce experiences that are radically different in intensity. (Hence the pre-flight anxiety.)

That's a damn good point actually.

I'm one of the folks who finds salvia a fair bit on the dysphoric side, however I never really question myself before smoking it. I almost go into it as if I was about to hit some weed. With DMT there have been times where I have sat with my pipe an my chest for an hour at a time before plucking up the courage and going in. I've never had a classic bad experience on DMT, but I'm so aware of what's possible with it that I am very aware that if it goes tits up, then all serious manner of shit is going to hit all serious manner of fans.

I should have added what I mean by this. I mean consistently over a long period of uses, DMT and other psychedelics will be more enjoyable than anything that is partially a deliriant.

Also the point you make is a good one, because I think it highlights the big difference between dissociatives and psychedelics. With dissociatives the high dose realm is a very neutral one, which can be confusing and scary at times but even those new to tripping can usually get through it without any trouble - it is fairly easy going. However even a relatively weak psychedelic trip can be quite a problem for some of these people as while dissociatives dull most of the senses, psychedelics have the exact opposite effect.

I think one good example is my first "K hole" experience with Ketamine:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=79579

- I was not prepared whatsoever, however while the experience scared the living hell out of me at first it was very easy going after that and ended up being a great experience which I learned a lot from. On a high dose of a strong psychedelic, or DMT - if it were to go bad in this way, I imagine it would have ended up very differently. For example I've had one bad experience with psychedelics so far, 2C-E in particular, and it was horrible - the emotional side of it was worst, along with the anxiety - whereas with dissociatives neither of these things are present. Thankfully it happened on about my 10th trip, so I was experienced enough at this point to work through it and turn it into a good trip.

I see dissociatives as a tool for instant ego loss, introspection, etc - not really recreational as most people see them, but useful tools - and very forgiving. Psychedelics on the other hand I see as equally useful, but with an added recreational aspect - and I feel the plant/substance is always more forgiving if you treat it with respect.

Again with the generalizations!

How do you define deliriant and where is salvia classified as a “partial deliriant”?

Salvia is not a partial deleriant. It's classified as an atypical psychedelic onirogen.

I have smoked it hundreds of times. I have experienced states of extreme euphoria with salvia comparable to that of DMT, though with much less frequency than that of DMT. Salvia is simply the strangest of the psychedelics for me...though I took it alot over and over again in order to try to get some personal basis in reguards to what is actaully going on..and I still and not even sure..but in reasonable doses salvia is never as confusing as it was at first, and never feels like a deleriant. At higher doses it can stil be so weird that I just have no context, no frame of referce to come back and put it into..

Even DMT can be the same way and people have called DMT a deleriant as well.

I believe that whatsalvia presents is just so so far out there..so far from anything we could have concieved in normal awareness that the experince makes no rational sense to the rational mind. The only thing for me that allowed me to find a context for my experiences was more experiences, along with some understanding of theoretical physics.

To someone with not much salvia exerience I can see salvia making you feel delerious..and maybe in the context of your brain subjectivly at the time..it does become a deleriant in that moment, for you. But I dont believe salvia is a deleriant. It is quite specific in it's effects and can be quite coherant once you learn how to properly use it. The deleriant designation of the experience IMO stems from it simply being so far from or current understanding of existance, moreso than any other psychedelic, and that makes it difficult to apply a context to the experience.

"Also the point you make is a good one, because I think it highlights the big difference between dissociatives and psychedelics. With dissociatives the high dose realm is a very neutral one, which can be confusing and scary at times but even those new to tripping can usually get through it without any trouble - it is fairly easy going. However even a relatively weak psychedelic trip can be quite a problem for some of these people as while dissociatives dull most of the senses, psychedelics have the exact opposite effect."

What are you aplying this to?..salvia or ketamine?

I have sat with many many people and dosed them with salvia at they're request. I have seen more people completely freak out with salvia than I have seen with any other substance. I know people who are terrified of salvia but will jump at the chance to eat mushrooms or LSD.

"as with the correct dosages, DXM, PCP and Ketamine can take you to the same places Salvia takes you to"

Oh?..

Salvia is active at the kappa opioid receptors..ketamine, DXM and PCP are actve at the N-methyl-D-aspartate receptors..they are TOTALLY different things...I have gievn salvia to very experienced ketamine users who proclaimd they most definatily do NOT take them to the same place at all.

I agree with Fractal on this one... and I have so far more pre-flight anxiety with smoking salvia than spice. Even if I do control it. I actually think this anxiety is a good thing making the use of such substances very easy to control.
I wouldn't define Salvia as a fairly easy going dissociative at all !! Ketamine is much more easy but still nothing that easy all the time, however quite a comfy dissociative as low dose (which is therefore habit forming).
They do not compare much actually, a part from the fact that dissociation is sometimes very hard on the mind feeling like he lost his body-interface.
I gave salvia too to experienced mushrooms, lsd and ketamine users who usually either did it a few times, or only once and decided that THE SCARIEST TRIP SITUATION evev encountered was with this plant.
Coming like "Next time I'll kill you" or a huge "NO" signal visualized as red cross across their body...
This has always been with smoking extract, chewing quid or sublingual tincture may be different in terms of sharpness...

I would also not say that salvia dulls the senses, but rather quite the opposite. I think you become more aware of your senses in a sense; that is to say that it can highly distort your senses, affecting your hallucinations (i.e. what you touch can affect what you see) though the process is so disorienting that you end up confusing these heightened senses for other things in the whole chaotic madness of it all.

Deliriant in the sense that it can cause full realistic hallucinations such as apparitions of people or animals - hallucinations that do not take the form of the distortions present in dissociatives and psychedelics. The reason I said "partial" is because this isn't a very common thing with Salvia (though I have seen it happen to quite a lot of people, for most of them it's a rare occurrence still) - I probably should have focused on the dissociative side of things though since really Salvia is a dissociative not a deliriant.



Salvia is not classified as a deliriant, but it seems to exert some deliriant effects on various people, possible due to the fact that it uses the k-opioid receptors rather than NMDA receptors - however this is just speculation, and it could be a unique side to the dissociative effects of this particular receptor - or I could simply be getting conflicting reports from people.

However, it is classified as a dissociative, rather than a traditional psychedelic. I think confusing the two is wrong because they're very different. I apologise if it seemed I was trying to make generalisations but I think asking for a comparison of two psychoactive compounds is always going to lead to that - as generalisations are the best anyone can make with things such as dissociatives and psychedelics which are so widely different from experience to experience.



This is what I was referring to when I was discussing the deliriant side of Salvia, I did not mean that Salvia itself was a deliriant, but I meant that it could exhibit typical deliriant effects including quite grotesque vivid hallucinations and things that can really scare a person. Another reason I feel salvia often freaks people out is because people are expecting a typical psychedelic, and a dissociative is a very different thing entirely - while some people can take psychedelics every week and only ever experience one or two instances of ego loss - the same is not really true of dissociatives, ego loss and such go hand in hand with dissociatives and are unavoidable at larger doses, regardless of the tripper's experience - this can be unpleasant for people who are used to keeping their ego intact. However, I think we're both making some major generalisations here and I think I was wrong to do so in the first place, what I meant to say is that dissociatives are more emotionally neutral and can be better handled when prepared for - however someone going from psychedelics to dissociatives will have just as hard a time as someone going from dissociatives to psychedelics for the first time.



I have also trip sitted people on Salvia who have had a lot of experience with Ketamine, I used the word can for just that reason. I have seen people end up in the exact same place, I have seen people say they are almost identical - but I have also seen the opposite, people finding all dissociatives (even when comparing DXM and Ketamine for example) vastly different in where they take you. Also, once again, dosage is key, a lot of the people that found Salvia and Ketamine very different had only ever experimented with lower doses of Ketamine. Though, like I said, the emphasis is on can, ALL dissociatives are different - regardless of the receptor they affect, however they can also be very similar to each other.



I think it's plausible this is due to the possible deliriant aspect I mentioned, or it could also be dependant on the trippers themselves. I've found some people who consistently enjoy Salvia and love smoking it - some who hate it and are terrified of using it. I know some people who find it easier than Ketamine, and some who find it harder. Once again, I was just making a few comments based on my personal experience with users of DMT, Salvia, and Ketamine. I'm not claiming to be an expert on the subject, the main thing I just wanted to point out is the mistake I see a lot of people making when they call Salvia a psychedelic rather than a dissociative - I'll forgive "Psychedelic dissociative" but the dissociative part is key.



That was a mistake of mine, I rushed the post a little. I meant to say dulls the emotions and not the senses, dulling of the senses tends to occur more with dissociative anaesthetics such as Ketamine or PCP than something like Salvia.

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Anyway, I'm not trying to start an argument here, I should have made a simpler more concise post originally and I think I'd have been understood better. What I'm trying to get at, is to me Salvia is to DMT as Ketamine is to LSD - Ketamine and Salvia have their similarities, DMT and LSD have their similarities - both are different, however Salvia and DMT are generally regarded as the most powerful (in terms of the experience, not necessarily dosage - well, that too with Salvia actually) hallucinogens of their class. If I were to be more complete I'd say Salvia is to DMT is to Datura as Ketamine is to LSD is to Diphenhydramine.



^ I think this post sums up the big difference between psychedelics and dissociatives for me. Dissociatives are a very "interior" experience, it is as if I am sitting inside my head looking out of my eyes as a spectator rather than the owner of this body - and usually the trip centres around me and my subconscious. Psychedelics on the other hand are an "exterior" experience, it is all about sensation, emotion, what I can feel, hear, see, smell, the world around me, the people around me - the connection.

Once again, any/all of this post is my opinions only, don't take it as hard fact - and, as someone who hasn't tried either DMT or Salvia myself and is just going on friends' experiences - I might come back in a years time and say "What was I thinking saying all that?" - so if you think my post is utterly preposterous, don't take offence, it probably is.