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How quickly does mescaline break down at very high pH? Options
 
w0mbat
#1 Posted : 7/10/2010 5:00:50 AM

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Does anyone have any idea how much mescaline would be lost if one had, say, a 1:0.8 ratio of cactus powder to lye sitting in solution for about a week at room temperature? Would it be roughly on the order of <10%, or would it be much higher?
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soulfood
#2 Posted : 7/10/2010 5:44:01 AM

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I think as long as it's kept wet so there's minimum contact with oxygen and other reactive gases, mescaline is very stable at a very high pH. I've certainly been experience to successfully cleaning up good active mescaline out of some pretty toxic lye soups Smile
 
Virola78
#3 Posted : 7/10/2010 12:13:17 PM

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For the 69ron tek the cactus-water-lime mix was set to rest for 1 day, so to basify. (EDIT: the jar was closed to prevent evaporation of water) Then one NP pull was done every day. in total 4 pulls = 4 days.

So the cactus had been in close contact with lime for 5 days.
No noticable loss of potency.

Extraction was carried out during hot summer days with temperatures between 20-30C.

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endlessness
#4 Posted : 7/10/2010 2:29:21 PM

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I had a discussion with someone in the forum, dont remember who, and IIRC this person said they had extracted mescaline without noticeable loss from pH 14 soup that was kept for months. Note that this is just someone that said so on the forum, doesnt mean its a fact, but just thought I would let you know Smile
 
dg
#5 Posted : 7/15/2010 1:15:17 AM
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endlessness wrote:
I had a discussion with someone in the forum, dont remember who, and IIRC this person said they had extracted mescaline without noticeable loss from pH 14 soup that was kept for months. Note that this is just someone that said so on the forum, doesnt mean its a fact, but just thought I would let you know Smile


is very much true Smile

as for other potentiating alks, who knows
 
69ron
#6 Posted : 7/15/2010 1:33:19 AM

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The main problem with mescaline seems to be oxidation in dry air at 150 F or so. If you use heat to dry it, you'll notice it turns brown and sticky from oxidation if you leave it there for too long. It's not decomposed, it's just oxidized and can be recovered with an N-oxide reduction step.

SWIM had quite a lot of mescaline get oxidized once when he forgot it in the food dehydrator set at 150F. After several days the mescaline was brown and sticky and pretty much inactive. After N-oxide reduction it was white and powdery and active again.

So don’t expose it to dry heat for too long.
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dg
#7 Posted : 7/15/2010 2:24:26 AM
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69ron wrote:
The main problem with mescaline seems to be oxidation in dry air at 150 F or so. If you use heat to dry it, you'll notice it turns brown and sticky from oxidation if you leave it there for too long. It's not decomposed, it's just oxidized and can be recovered with an N-oxide reduction step.

SWIM had quite a lot of mescaline get oxidized once when he forgot it in the food dehydrator set at 150F. After several days the mescaline was brown and sticky and pretty much inactive. After N-oxide reduction it was white and powdery and active again.

So don’t expose it to dry heat for too long.


food for thought
maybe the salt you use? salting method etc? the science just doesn't support pure mescaline behaving that way

even moderately pure extracts with sulphate and hcl doesn't do that, unlsee loads of impurities are present, then its the impurities/and or extra acid turning to goo

have baked hcl at 220-250*f w/o seeing any issue.
however, if ecsess acid is present a similar issue to what you describe can occur!
what ph do you titrate too?
ph of final product?
err swim ot wtf ever Smile

ps.
sticky brown hcl is very common due to outdated salting teks posted around, which rely on ecxess acid to evap (it also pulls impurities from the NP, and water from the air, causing goo)
in my tests citric and acetic pulled far more junk than hcl or sulphuric from the np btw, but i never add acid to bring solution below ph6-7. ecess citric and acetic dont evap the same as hcl, so i can see where goo could be an issue if tritrated beyond 6


 
soulfood
#8 Posted : 7/15/2010 2:26:14 AM

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69ron wrote:
The main problem with mescaline seems to be oxidation in dry air at 150 F or so. If you use heat to dry it, you'll notice it turns brown and sticky from oxidation if you leave it there for too long. It's not decomposed, it's just oxidized and can be recovered with an N-oxide reduction step.

SWIM had quite a lot of mescaline get oxidized once when he forgot it in the food dehydrator set at 150F. After several days the mescaline was brown and sticky and pretty much inactive. After N-oxide reduction it was white and powdery and active again.

So don’t expose it to dry heat for too long.


I have found this to be much more true of freebase mescaline, but haven't noticed it so much with Hcl, Acetate etc.
 
dg
#9 Posted : 7/15/2010 2:58:12 AM
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soulfood wrote:
69ron wrote:
The main problem with mescaline seems to be oxidation in dry air at 150 F or so. If you use heat to dry it, you'll notice it turns brown and sticky from oxidation if you leave it there for too long. It's not decomposed, it's just oxidized and can be recovered with an N-oxide reduction step.

SWIM had quite a lot of mescaline get oxidized once when he forgot it in the food dehydrator set at 150F. After several days the mescaline was brown and sticky and pretty much inactive. After N-oxide reduction it was white and powdery and active again.

So don’t expose it to dry heat for too long.


I have found this to be much more true of freebase mescaline, but haven't noticed it so much with Hcl, Acetate etc.


by what route did you arrive at fb, how pure was it?
 
69ron
#10 Posted : 7/15/2010 3:13:27 AM

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dg wrote:
69ron wrote:
The main problem with mescaline seems to be oxidation in dry air at 150 F or so. If you use heat to dry it, you'll notice it turns brown and sticky from oxidation if you leave it there for too long. It's not decomposed, it's just oxidized and can be recovered with an N-oxide reduction step.

SWIM had quite a lot of mescaline get oxidized once when he forgot it in the food dehydrator set at 150F. After several days the mescaline was brown and sticky and pretty much inactive. After N-oxide reduction it was white and powdery and active again.

So don’t expose it to dry heat for too long.


food for thought
maybe the salt you use? salting method etc?


It doesn't seem to matter. SWIM has seen this with 99% pure mescaline HCL as well as impure mescaline acetate, and I assume it applies to all forms including the freebase.

Try it yourself. Leave some at 150 F with forced air for 1 week (a food dehydrator on high is perfect for this). If the crystals don't all turn brown and sticky I'll be amazed. This happens with pretty much every alkaloid SWIM has ever isolated, even DMT. It happens faster for some alkaloids though.
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soulfood
#11 Posted : 7/15/2010 3:22:22 AM

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dg wrote:
soulfood wrote:

I have found this to be much more true of freebase mescaline, but haven't noticed it so much with Hcl, Acetate etc.


by what route did you arrive at fb, how pure was it?


Not pure at all. It was just the based stage of my first attempt at a drytek. I dried the whole lot under a heat fan. Once converted to acetate and extracted the finishing product was completely inactive at doses all the way up to 600mg.
 
dg
#12 Posted : 7/15/2010 9:23:36 PM
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69ron wrote:
dg wrote:
69ron wrote:
The main problem with mescaline seems to be oxidation in dry air at 150 F or so. If you use heat to dry it, you'll notice it turns brown and sticky from oxidation if you leave it there for too long. It's not decomposed, it's just oxidized and can be recovered with an N-oxide reduction step.

SWIM had quite a lot of mescaline get oxidized once when he forgot it in the food dehydrator set at 150F. After several days the mescaline was brown and sticky and pretty much inactive. After N-oxide reduction it was white and powdery and active again.

So don’t expose it to dry heat for too long.


food for thought
maybe the salt you use? salting method etc?


It doesn't seem to matter. SWIM has seen this with 99% pure mescaline HCL as well as impure mescaline acetate, and I assume it applies to all forms including the freebase.

Try it yourself. Leave some at 150 F with forced air for 1 week (a food dehydrator on high is perfect for this). If the crystals don't all turn brown and sticky I'll be amazed. This happens with pretty much every alkaloid SWIM has ever isolated, even DMT. It happens faster for some alkaloids though.


i like to experimant, but an extra heater running for a week would make my space pretty hot.
maybe the dashboard of my car?lol
 
w0mbat
#13 Posted : 7/16/2010 2:53:42 AM

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dg wrote:


ps.
sticky brown hcl is very common due to outdated salting teks posted around, which rely on ecxess acid to evap (it also pulls impurities from the NP, and water from the air, causing goo)




Can you recommend a better technique? I've tried titrating to pH 7 with citric acid once and it was a miserable failure
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endlessness
#14 Posted : 7/16/2010 2:58:32 AM

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I second that question. How much hcl do you think its ideal for making the salting pulls ?
 
soulfood
#15 Posted : 7/16/2010 3:09:32 AM

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I just use 1 drop of 30% per 25ml water.

Seems to work ok.
 
dg
#16 Posted : 7/16/2010 5:05:56 AM
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endlessness wrote:
I second that question. How much hcl do you think its ideal for making the salting pulls ?


salting pull, Wink
only one is needed.
i will add a write up in cacti now i guess Smile
 
Recycled_Solvent
#17 Posted : 10/28/2010 11:05:57 PM

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endlessness wrote:
I second that question. How much hcl do you think its ideal for making the salting pulls ?


Funny, I made a writeup in paper for this exact question.

So, per gram of mescaline given you used 100 grams of cactus 100grams x .01 percent = 1 gram.

Mescaline weighs 211.257 gram per mol.

1 gram/211.257 = 0.0047335709585954548251655566442 mols of mescaline in one gram.

My cat has 20 baume hydrochloric acid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrochloric_acid

scroll down to the tables to see what percentage/baume you have.

So 20 baume HCL is 10.17 Molar hcl that means that is 10.17 moles of HCL gas dissolved in 1 litre of water.


Since mescaline reacts with HCL in a 1:1 ratio. We need 0.0047335709585954548251655566442 mols of HCL

.004733mols/10.17mols = 4.6544453870161797690910094830648e-4 litres or .46544 mls

Given 1 drop is .05 ml therefore 20 drops is a mililiter. you need half of that, or 10 drops.
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