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amor_fati's Guide to Juremala WIP Options
 
69ron
#41 Posted : 3/16/2010 7:57:42 AM

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Why not make a sublingual gel using gelatin and glycerin? There's a thread about it on the Nexus giving the recipe that I got from SWIM that's found here: 5-MeO-DMT windowpane (gel tabs)?

That's super easy to make. You can make a whole sheet of them. You can make the gel a flat square roughly the size of the underside of your tongue. SWIM has done this before. Its works very well with 5-MeO-DMT and should work equally well with DMT and harmaline/THH/etc. It makes spreading the alkaloids a non issue and it's portable. You can put a gelatin square in your wallet wrapped in paper. It's perfect for sublingual use.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 

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mumbles
#42 Posted : 3/16/2010 9:15:14 AM

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The doses were actually in windowpane made following the ratios from otto snow's book. Swim has read a heap of food science books during his gelatin adventures but soon enough he will find an appropriate mold and create a sheet. Very transportable as swiy says. Funny thing is windowpane without any actives can be dried to almost a plastic consistency (obviously too dry but you get the idea), but with harmalas/spice acetates dissolved it never really dries it just stops being tacky to the touch.

Also it really sucks chasing around that last little piece of non-dissolved windowpane with your tongue, getting very numb in the process.
 
amor_fati
#43 Posted : 3/16/2010 3:03:28 PM

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SWIM wasn't fully aware of the implications of making a tincture with vinegar prior to this experimentation. He's only been working with a small bottle of tincture and it still smells normal and hasn't given him problems, but he supposes that he should increase the acidity before too long. 5% distilled white vinegar has a pH of around 2.5, so simply evaporating the contents of the dropper bottle in a food dehydrator and simply adding more vinegar would yield a sufficient pH for preservation.

He's guessing that vinegar solutions spoil at higher pH because of various impurities (whatever makes it through fermentation and distillation) that facilitate bacterial colonization under significantly less acidic conditions than straight vinegar, which won't spoil on its own. SWIM would guess that this would take some time to occur, but it would be nice to be able to produce tinctures that one wouldn't have to worry about.

Edit:
SWIM updated the wiki tek to include instructions for producing a spice tincture; however, SWIM has a feeling that the concentration of the tincture could be doubled if the procedure were performed twice (dissolving in vinegar, evaping, adding the same amount of freebase, adding more vinegar, evaping, adding more vinegar to preserve contents).
 
amor_fati
#44 Posted : 3/16/2010 9:42:37 PM

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Ok, this seems to work just fine for SWIM: Put the opened dropper as close to the dehydrator fan as possible and dehydrate at a temperature lower than 39C to prevent any dissociation of the acetates. The previous tincture seemingly neutralized most of the acetic acid, so the tincture didn't even smell of acetic, but production of a tincture through this process yields a solution with the odor of acetic.
 
yayscience
#45 Posted : 3/16/2010 11:08:41 PM
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I think it's worth noting that preserving the acidity of the tincture is only relevant if you are interested in storing it long-term in that form. If you are planning on using it within a few days, it seems to me that leaving it in the more palatable form would be preferable.
 
amor_fati
#46 Posted : 3/17/2010 3:31:31 PM

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goldenbloo wrote:
I think it's worth noting that preserving the acidity of the tincture is only relevant if you are interested in storing it long-term in that form. If you are planning on using it within a few days, it seems to me that leaving it in the more palatable form would be preferable.


Certainly this pertains mostly to long term storage, but a spice tincture is hardly palatable as it is for SWIM, to be quite honest. With THH, the vinegar seems to mask the taste of the alkaloid, but with spice, the the alkaloid's taste overwhelms the vinegar. Honestly, it's worth the extra bit of evap time to know a tincture is going to last. SWIM also wouldn't want to be the one to recommend against such precautions when the cost of not taking these measures far outweighs the seemingly insignificant benefits.
 
ThirdEyeVision
#47 Posted : 3/17/2010 6:18:28 PM

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My friend was wondering the best way to convert DMT Fumarate to acetate for this tincture.
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Pokey
#48 Posted : 3/17/2010 8:47:46 PM

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I have asked the same question in at least three different threads with no reply yet....

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freethinker
#49 Posted : 3/17/2010 8:58:15 PM
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amor_fati-- thanks for compiling all your work and findings into one place (and thread). Been following the sublingual experiments of several nexians for a while now. It's good to see it all coming together.

mumbles wrote:
Swim and his gf tried 30mg harmalas and 20mg spice as an initial adventure into the world of sublingual administration without swallowing any saliva. While it wasn't as strong as 20mg smoked it lasted substantially longer (2hrs from first alert) with no sedation and synergized extremely well with other smoked herbs and music.

Excellent report. This is, co-incidentally, exactly the plan for the first test over here. What harmalas did swiy+gf use?

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amor_fati
#50 Posted : 3/17/2010 9:22:15 PM

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It's possible that it may not be necessary to convert, as SWIM can't quite rule out sublingual fumarates, yet. SWIM will eventually repeat his first successful sublingual experiment with dry fumarates in place of an acetate tincture. If it doesn't work, he'll know for sure, but if it does work at least as well, all the better. It's possible that absorption is a bit slower, but that may not matter so much with a decent amount of harmaloids (~80mg).

In the meantime, SWIM recommends converting to freebase and simply making a tincture with the procedure outlined.
 
Tribal Dreamings
#51 Posted : 3/18/2010 12:29:35 AM

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some awesome work goin on here! Smile

Was thinkin, would it be ok to add menthol to the tincture to aid in absorbtion and to cool any potential burning feelings from ph or alcohol?
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mumbles
#52 Posted : 3/18/2010 12:37:05 AM

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freethinker wrote:
amor_fati-- thanks for compiling all your work and findings into one place (and thread). Been following the sublingual experiments of several nexians for a while now. It's good to see it all coming together.

mumbles wrote:
Swim and his gf tried 30mg harmalas and 20mg spice as an initial adventure into the world of sublingual administration without swallowing any saliva. While it wasn't as strong as 20mg smoked it lasted substantially longer (2hrs from first alert) with no sedation and synergized extremely well with other smoked herbs and music.

Excellent report. This is, co-incidentally, exactly the plan for the first test over here. What harmalas did swiy+gf use?
Swim used extracted rue alkaloids after 2x manske + a few salt washes and freebasing. Swim also tried 60mg harmalas and 30mg yellow/orange spice n-oxide with a lot more activity. Keep in mind this was with windowpane and it isn't perfected yet so the absorbtion wasn't 100% efficient. Next trial will involve a vinegar/glycerine tincture of the acetate salts, really looking forward to that.
 
amor_fati
#53 Posted : 3/18/2010 2:07:13 AM

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Tribal Dreamings wrote:
Was thinkin, would it be ok to add menthol to the tincture to aid in absorbtion and to cool any potential burning feelings from ph or alcohol?


Pure foodgrade menthol is difficult to come by, if SWIM's not mistaken, but it's come up a number of times as potentially ideal for sublingual administration. DMSO has come up but with little support due to difficulties (supposedly the taste would be horrid or painful, perhaps?) with the substance, and glycerin is the other big one.
 
amor_fati
#54 Posted : 3/21/2010 9:11:43 AM

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amor_fati wrote:
It's possible that it may not be necessary to convert, as SWIM can't quite rule out sublingual fumarates, yet. SWIM will eventually repeat his first successful sublingual experiment with dry fumarates in place of an acetate tincture. If it doesn't work, he'll know for sure, but if it does work at least as well, all the better. It's possible that absorption is a bit slower, but that may not matter so much with a decent amount of harmaloids (~80mg).


Confirmed. 20drpHRMLN,5drpTHH,58mgSPCFMRT->just as strong as equivalent w/acetate.
 
The Wizard
#55 Posted : 3/21/2010 3:55:36 PM

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wowo its amazing...if you dont get any on your tongue..its so damn easy!!! i think i have fallen in love with this method...im testing out a very small dose..because spice seems to be awfully potent in my body..but so far...its quite enjoyable!! thanks for all the hard work guys!
 
Observant
#56 Posted : 3/21/2010 6:51:05 PM

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I am very interested in the effectivity of Menthol .
My Swim has some Pure Menthol Crystals from Peppermint (maya) , but no idea about dosage , he doesn't want to overdo it .
Does Capsaicin aid absorbtion , too ? Laughing


On the Windowpane issue : Look into Methylcellulose (Molecular Cooking) "Metil"
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TheAppleCore
#57 Posted : 3/23/2010 1:30:30 AM

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Very much looking forward to giving this a go. =)

spork wrote:
wowo its amazing...if you dont get any on your tongue..its so damn easy!!! i think i have fallen in love with this method...im testing out a very small dose..because spice seems to be awfully potent in my body..but so far...its quite enjoyable!! thanks for all the hard work guys!


Nice -- in what form was the spice -- acetate tincture, dry fumarate, freebase?
 
q21q21
#58 Posted : 3/23/2010 1:40:44 AM

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amor_fati wrote:
Tribal Dreamings wrote:
Was thinkin, would it be ok to add menthol to the tincture to aid in absorbtion and to cool any potential burning feelings from ph or alcohol?


Pure foodgrade menthol is difficult to come by, if SWIM's not mistaken, but it's come up a number of times as potentially ideal for sublingual administration. DMSO has come up but with little support due to difficulties (supposedly the taste would be horrid or painful, perhaps?) with the substance, and glycerin is the other big one.


DMSO is wretched tasting, burns a little and leaves the mouth sore and odd-textured for hours, SWIM has tried it sublingually 3 times and regretted it each time.

SWIM however thinks that glycerin may be a good option, it's quite close in polarity to DMSO.

SWIM thinks that for any tincture one of the 3 could be used.

1:water
2:oil (SWIM uses canola)

and if neither work well then try glycerin... SWIM guesses.
He's had great experience using water and oil sublingually, no need for anything that burns!
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amor_fati
#59 Posted : 3/23/2010 6:15:45 AM

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By the way, FV's now using glycerin and water with dissolved acetates for tinctures. SWIM would like to upgrade, himself, so he was wondering if anyone had any idea of the water to glycerin ratio. He's fairly certain he's seen foodgrade glycerin around town.
 
plumsmooth
#60 Posted : 3/24/2010 1:04:02 PM

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Coconut Oil is worth a try, although, at temperatures below 78 I believe you'll have a workable solid, which might be perfect for your lingahuasca. You might be familiar with the Coconut Oil trend these days-- at least in the virgin organic mode, said to be one of the healthier oils. Also, I believe CO as it is referred to on the health food forums, is naturally anticeptic. Doesn't go bad or rancid! P.S. Speaking of FV tinctures do you have any idea how they do their caapi? I'm guessing basified with their food grade Sodium Carbonate, and then acetate-fied with Vinegar for harmala acetates.
 
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