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What is ok to talk about with the public? Options
 
Voidmatrix
#41 Posted : 2/2/2024 3:23:29 AM

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I'm noticing a theme in these last few in that because of a misguided perception it's necessary to keep things close to the vest. FL may not actually be unprofessional, but because of "optics" and people not being educated, they run that risk of being perceived as unprofessional. It's unfortunate when a problem on the part of others becomes our problems too.

I'm very fortunate. I work in two fields that are both drug-related (the cannabis industry and psychedelic guiding), so am able to generally be pretty free to talk about my experiences. Talking about psychedelics with the public can also be an opportunity to educate people on the finer details of psychedelics and help dispel myths, like when I talk to people about it at the gym or other such places. Granted, educating about psychedelics is different than discussing one's personal experiences, though a certain level of education about them and the experiences they elicit can be a giveaway.

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What if the "truth" is: the "truth" is indescernible/unknowable/nonexistent? Then the closest we get is through being true to and with ourselves.


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Question everything... including questioning everything... There's so much I could be wrong about and have no idea...
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Saikedelix
#42 Posted : 2/2/2024 4:18:18 PM
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I have myself put a lot of thought into this question, and have some first hand experience with it, so I will give you my personal take on it. I personally am one mostly against discussing with the uninitiated, and for multiple reasons that I will explain.

First of all, the fact that you are asking what is ok to share or not suggests that you do not have clear reasons why something should or should not be discussed, meaning you do not have a reason not to share, but also most likely you do not have a genuine reason to do so either. You may first want to take the time to question and understand the nature of this desire you have to share before acting on it. In my experience, most of the time we speak, we do it for ourselves and not for our interlocutor, to make our beliefs more real, or to attach ourselves to something bigger than ourselves to give ourselves some importance. We do have the ability to learn from each other’s experiences, and I believe to some extent that most non-practical discussion is more a form of mental masturbation than it is a purposeful exchange, and I am saying this from my own introspection, so please do not take it as an insult. Speech is a very powerful tool we tend to misuse, as Sadhguru says, ‘’We were handed the most complex machine that we know of in the entire universe, but it came without an instruction manual.’’

I will share with you a concept I have learned through years of all sorts of spiritual and philosophical practices. I go by the principle that we are products of the universe, we are made up of the same laws and materials that make up planets, suns, and the space in between, therefore the simple fact that we hold together in one piece proves that we contain within ourselves the code that makes up the entire universe, so in a way we already have all the answers within us, but do not let your ego use this notion for its own selfish purposes, the ultimate knowledge still is to know that we don’t know. But from this notion, as well as the extremely individual nature of these experiences and processes, it is safe to assume that these practice are a matter of looking inward. There are only 2 directions we humans can focus our senses: outward or inward, and we can’t do both simultaneously. In my experience, if someone is looking inward means they most probably aren’t looking at you, so if they are looking at you, you already know they aren’t looking in the right direction, and same goes for yourself, if you are too eager to share or follow someone’s guidance means you are looking outward, so most likely in the wrong direction.

I also believe in the concept that we are the universe experiencing itself, or as a good friend of mine puts it, our entire existences are just individual thoughts in the mind of god, we therefore have individual existences for a reason, and we should embrace the fact that we are alone in our journey. In my experience a lot of my desires to share came from my desire not to be alone on this journey, but nothing I do or say will permit me to take a passenger with me in my travels, we have our own individual paths that sometimes meet, and those are great moments to share stories, keeping in mind we will eventually be led by our individual paths to separate again and face our own different sets of challenges, so we can’t prepare each other for anything.

Even in cultures that have managed to integrate a constructive use of psychedelics, they are often still esoteric in nature, esoteric meaning reserved to the few, most of these cultures have dedicated practitioners, it is never really a thing for the masses, and I believe that is because it takes a specific set of character traits to be successful in these practices, and I believe that anyone who does have that specific set of character traits would naturally be drawn to their own path without the need of outside interventions, so I trust nature to do the job better than I or anyone else ever could.

Relating to my previous point, I believe there to be a significant importance in individually discovering it by themselves, it for one makes it undeniable that it indeed is something that belongs on our path and wasn’t put there by someone else, which is in my opinion necessary to have the necessary level of intention and determination to face the challenges this path will put us through, and we will have nobody to blame but ourselves if it doesn’t end well, and nobody but ourselves will have us to blame for their own shortcomings, which is extremely important, because if people don’t find out about it on their own, there will always be a part of doubt in the back of their minds. It is such a huge thing, most people would agree that there is a before and an after spice in their lives, we cannot predict how it will affect them and carry the responsibility of it for them, it is not our place to introduce the uninitiated to such a major thing, even just to the concept, the mere knowledge of the existence of such a thing. Just to give you an example, medicine has found a procedure to cure colour blindness, but it is not being performed because just the slight difference of seeing a new color for the first time could have traumatic psychological consequences on some people. As you surely know, spice does a bit more than just make you see new colors, so think about if you want to take on such a big responsibility before talking about it to the uninitiated. Providing medicine to the uninitiated is a huge no-no, it isn’t guaranteed to result in negative consequence, but it guarantees the responsibility will be on you if it does. If people want to try spice, it is up to them to find out about it, research, and make it happen from scratch by themselves like most of us did.

We all form mental models of things based on our own individual experiences combined with the informations available to us, that is the brain’s job that helps us navigate the world more purposefully, but the pitfall of that is that we always want to fill in all the gaps, we want clear explanations, and when we apply this to things as mysterious as psychedelics, it can often lead us to jump to conclusions. But in psychedelics I believe this cannot be applied, there is no question whether you have experienced being in contact with entities, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you actually were in contact with real entities that have their own existences independent of your own. People believe in religions with no proof, I think one of the big issues with psychedelics is that they seem to provide explanations and proof, and one of the most common resulting negative consequences is interpreting the teachings too literally or drawing conclusions too quickly. It is much easier to learn something the right way from scratch than it is to unlearn wrong things and correct them.

I also think that being too open to sharing the contents can have negative impacts for yourself, not only for your interlocutor, like for example not being entirely present during the experiences or not paying attention to certain aspects of it because thinking about what to tell your friends when you come back, and that is also valid for discussing with the initiated. Those experiences are meant just for you, I think the mere thought of the possibility to share any part of it kind of messes with the process, like adding more variables by quantum entangling more observers to your experiments (figuratively).

One other way it negatively impacts you to share the contents of your experiences, is that you have your own individual mind to which the experiences are tailored, so discussing the contents with others and hearing their thoughts on it only corrupts your interpretation of your experiences, resulting in a less efficient process and messing with your integration. I believe the same to be true regarding dreaming practices. I think the most constructive process through which we can use them is to first have some real life experiences, then take psychedelics to process and integrate those, and then take the lessons back to the real world, integrating them by applying them into our lives, and only once they are an integral part of us is the process completed, so in order not to temper with the process we must refrain from involving others before it is completed.

When you discuss things others don’t know and experiences they do not have, in the best case scenario where they would receive it positively and be extremely receptive to what you are talking about, it tends to automatically place you in a teacher position, and in the case of something spiritual like psychedelics, that means a guru, which is a very slippery slope.

So after all, I think that actually discussing technical aspects such as preparation makes more sense than discussing the deeply individual and personal contents of our experiences, but it should only be done if solicited, and I don’t see how people could know you would have anything to do with it to even solicit you in the first place unless you have been discussing it unsolicited. Most people’s curiosity in psychedelics doesn’t come from the right place anyways, so I personally wouldn’t share on the matter unless I know for sure that the intention behind their mere interest in psychedelics is genuine and constructive, and that it is not just an interest but something they have extensive experience with. Even if they are the right person, it might not be the right time, you can’t rush things bigger than yourself. Convincing arguments for you might be nightmarish warnings to other, I think we can only negatively impact other’s opinions by getting involved and providing information on the contents of the experiences, just let them chase the white rabbit themselves, because even if you get them to the bottom of the rabbit hole, you will have robbed them of all the fun, and if you got there on your own, means others also can anyways, have a little bit of faith.

And that was all assuming you would be received positively, indeed as I saw fink mention, it can make you seem like an outcast, or even a nutjob or drug addict, and it is quite difficult to know what people will think of you, or even what they are really thinking of you at the moment. One thing is certain, whether they love or hate psychedelics and/or you, it most certainly will affect their judgement of you in one way or another. People will already have an opinion on the matter even if they have no first hand experience. Even if they have never even heard of it, they will formulate an opinion based on completely unrelated data, one thing almost certain is they will look at it through the ‘’drug’’ lens, whether they like drugs or not, and most people who like drugs think of party, and most of those who don’t think of crackheads and other street addicts. Only a very wise and advanced spiritual practitioner would even be at a stage of being able not to formulate an opinion on everything they encounter, and those people don’t need us to tell them anything. And as others said, you do not control what others will say about you to others, this could get you a bad reputation or even in trouble with the law.

Here is the most appropriate place to discuss it I suppose, I assume we are all initiated and open to discussion, but still be mindful of what your purpose for sharing is, and how it may affect you or others. I would say talking about it to the masses for a surface entertainment kind of level is a stupid and nonsensical idea to be entirely honest with you, it won’t do the people nor the psychedelics any good. I think even talking about it privately to a single individual could have unwanted consequences for them as well as for yourself, and the infinite amount of variables makes it impossible to predict the outcome, you are best leaving that responsibility to each their own.

I think the wisest approach is discussing in practical terms amongst the initiated to develop an efficient and constructive approach and gather useful information, like safety, technical aspects, etc. We must learn to trust the mysterious ways of the universe to initiate new individuals, who will be able to come here and on other forums to learn from our experiences and mistakes, and eventually themselves perpetrate the cycle by contributing. We should do the best we can to change the world for the better, but we should not expect it to happen within in our lifetimes, everything has its own pace which must be respected, all we can do as individuals is be mindful in our individual decisions, and that means doing things with a reason, and not doing things without one, or with one that isn’t in line with our greater purpose.

I think the best way to put information out is by writing a book, because it takes individual initiative to find it and read it, so in a way it acts as an esoteric filter. Because it is also such a concrete finished product, we hold ourselves more accountable for what we say, put more effort into research, and also a book unlike fragments of information scattered throughout comments is a more concentrated and crystalized way of sharing knowledge. I am deeply against sharing anything on the matter on social media, because it will indiscriminately be shown to people who didn’t research it on an industrial scale, being that you are talking about ‘’A LOT’’ of people, who clearly didn’t join your channel for that kind of content.
 
acacian
#43 Posted : 2/2/2024 10:51:13 PM

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Some really good points Saikedelix..

I think there are a few reasons people feel the need to share their experiences. You hit the nail on the head with intention of sharing. Like you say, many probably share because they have an innate desire to be understood, as they feel like an outkast in a society that doesn't take this stuff seriously, and mostly deems these experiences 'noise of the brain'. But of course we are talking about things that - in the words of Mckenna - are 'unenglisheable'. Sharing a personal experience in no way guarantees the person listening to have an experience anything like that of your own. Wanting a person to see what you have seen is maybe a little questionable.. as people are on their own journey, at their own pace. That said, with a thoughtful approach, sometimes it may be a good thing to let someone know that DMT exists. From there on, they can always seek out it themselves.

Its important that we check in with ourselves and be aware what effect we may have on someone by sharing this stuff.. we have a duty of care to do those we unveil it to.

I guess the other big reason is that we all see great healing potential with these experiences.. and god knows the planet is in need of that. I see DMT as probably having an important role in that.. but does that mean everybody in the world trying it? Probably not.. as you mention.. there is good reason it has remained somewhat esoteric in cultures that use it. I don't think its an experience everybody need have or should have. Those who are suited for the experience can play their own role in the tribe.. as everybody has their unique thing to bring to the table.

Regarding your point though about discovering it ourselves, and not having it 'put there by someone else' .. at what point do you draw the line though and deem something an external or internal influence? Surely if I am living my life and somebody one day starts talking to me about this or that substance.. that is still part of my journey, and could be seen as merely a different way of the molecule presenting itself to me.

I think it gets a little blurry when thinking about it like this.. but I get it. For example though, I first heard about DMT on Erowid.. there were people behind that site that put the information up - and it was reading people's trip reports that got my attention. In some ways I don't see that scenario as all that different.. its just a different form of delivery. I suppose in that case I had complete freedom to read what I did and didn't want to read though. Going and telling someone about it who didn't ask.. that could be seen as a bit pushy.

I think its safe to say most of us wouldn't have discovered DMT if someone didn't share a degree of their experience. Otherwise how would we end up captivated enough to seek it out?

But its one thing to share our experience with someone and leave them to reflect. Its another thing to then pull out the pipe and invite them back to your house to have the experience you just spoke of. I won't lie - I have done this before. But looking back, it was an insensitive and rushed introduction to something those people would have benefited from taking slower. Fortunately they all had great experiences.. but that could have gone differently.
 
Voidmatrix
#44 Posted : 2/3/2024 12:00:58 AM

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acacian wrote:
I think its safe to say most of us wouldn't have discovered DMT if someone didn't share a degree of their experience. Otherwise how would we end up captivated enough to seek it out?

But its one thing to share our experience with someone and leave them to reflect. Its another thing to then pull out the pipe and invite them back to your house to have the experience you just spoke of. I won't lie - I have done this before. But looking back, it was an insensitive and rushed introduction to something those people would have benefited from taking slower. Fortunately they all had great experiences.. but that could have gone differently.


This is a very complex topic, especially considering your first point that I quoted. If everyone decides to be elitist to the degree that they refuse the sharing of such information, then they for one are not elevated themselves and secondly are hindering the elevation of others. This is why there needs to be a balance with "gate-keeping." Shouldn't we "know our audience" and engage this information with them when we can feel it'll be welcomed and received? I'm not saying we should willy-nilly go out and tell everyone about it. Most people are uneducated and are slaves of their convictions. I wouldn't be here, having this discussion with you all if the friends that introduced me to DMT would have felt that I was "uninitiated." Word of mouth is a powerful vehicle for information, it's how we're all aware of all of these psychedelics.

I definitely open the door to be people, it's partly how I make my living after all, but am also of the camp that it should go at whatever pace organically manifests without rushing anything. Again, I'm an outlier here based off of my occupations and location. Natural plant medicines are decriminalized where I am. Factors of environment definitely influence one's perspective.

One love
What if the "truth" is: the "truth" is indescernible/unknowable/nonexistent? Then the closest we get is through being true to and with ourselves.


Know thyself, nothing in excess, certainty brings insanity- Delphic Maxims

DMT always has something new to show you Twisted Evil

Question everything... including questioning everything... There's so much I could be wrong about and have no idea...
All posts and supposed experiences are from an imaginary interdimensional being. This being has the proclivity and compulsion for delving in depths it shouldn't. Posts should be taken with a grain of salt. 👽
 
acacian
#45 Posted : 2/3/2024 6:40:54 AM

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You are right Voidmatrix.. reading the situation is key.. and by no means should people not share their experiences. I think its good practice though to remember that the person listening may not have tried it yet. So building as few preconceptions possible is probably for the best. I don't see this as gatekeeping so much as allowing people to have their own unique experience, without any preconceptions. We are dealing with the ineffable here..

Going into this, as long as someone understands its to be respected and is probably going to be extremely powerful, and probably extremely different to the accounts they've heard, then that's a good starting point. Sometimes simple is good.. DMT is perfectly capable of relaying what we often attempt to.

Should Terence not have told the world about his experiences? Hell no.. his accounts are a gift to us all. But we should be cautious of not taking them literally. Machine elves is a term for something that is impossible to explain.

I do think that the limitations of language here are something understood best by those who've had the experience and probably not so much by those who haven't.. so I feel a responsibility to make clear these limitations when talking about this stuff.
 
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