Is there a useful summary anywhere (outside of Shulgin's more general roundup in tha appendix of TIHKaL) of the "obscure betacarbolines" found in grasses, sedges and the like?

5-MeO NMT is also an isomer of bufotenine (I just felt like mentioning that).

Well, phragmites is said to contain more than trace amounts of bufotenine (the major indole alkaloid in some cases) and I always attributed the unusual visionariness and musicality (high definition audio hallucinations of high quality music! And also impeccable affinity to / synergy with music played during ceremony) to the bufotenine, but who knows perhaps it's also the 5 MeO NMT (of course in synergy with all the rest of the plant, including and not limited to DMT).

"Neo-curandero approach..." I don't see much of that online nowadays. Perhaps people are more insulated in their own social spheres. In any case, in this era plant spirit healing context based practice seems to have left alternative local plants and settled in traditional medicines' practice, for the most part.

"Perhaps far fetched" I don't think so at all.

downwardsfromzero wrote:


..you know DWFZ, i'm having a momentary flashback of you having posted that info years ago ..I'm not sure if you actually did, but yeah that's interesting...i guess it's like a big circle..
I can't think of any specific grasses beta-carbolines list anywhere...a worthwhile thing to do..but by obscure i really just mean not the 'usual suspects' (for mao inhibition), let alone the truly obscure..i remember endlessness started this general beta-carbolines list quite a while back, perhaps we could all chip in to build it more:
Harmalas and other less-known β-Carbolines Workthread

.
re dithyramb's and Sidisheikh.mehriz's comments on bufotenine, nmt etc...
- I think a lot of what we lack in modern culture is a vocabulary for some of these states, and a broader understanding of what the differences are useful for..

Bufotenine, there are still many wider misconceptions and knowledge gaps - jamie says it's highly hallucinogenic/visual but not an entheogen, others still think it just gives you a headache...NMT - i've said it's an entheogen but not visual, except at high doses, others say they don't notice it much.. there's an empatheogenic or 'warm' yes aspect too (perhaps more when in synergy), but really it's akin to characterising music, and our current language is limited, as it's a frontier of knowledge
..it's a physical, emotional and mental topology..
and as pointed out, it's also about what these things do in conjunction with eachother...5meo-NMT - whatever it does can only help to expand our vocabulary and tool set...that it's there at all, to me, suggests seeking answers..

dithyramb wrote:

..it's interesting, the different modern perceptions of traditional medicine paths..i assume by 'traditional' online nowadays we're talking ayahuasca, and maybe iboga (both rarely used in truly traditional settings any more) ...it usually gets narrowed in the modern scenes to a handful of world cultures, mostly the Americas, where it's been more accessible...for example A confusa has shamanic use, but the traditions have not been opened up to the outside world (for various reasons), and/or are now in decline or lost due to colonial impact on Asian indigenous tribes..the plant itself has its own tradition far older than humans, awaiting rediscovery...
as far as traditional plant healers, and vegetalismo etc, from what i've seen they are more often very open to experimenting with and incorporating new plant spirits they encounter, if they find something interesting about them - it's part of the work, part of the never ending research...past a certain age they may stick to what they know, but that's not how they got there. And, as you allude to, most traditions look to what's available locally...

Phalaris calls out to me as a tradition of the future (and i still suspect the past)...it, probably thankfully, doesn't have an existent big body of preconception attached to it..it requires intelligence, experimentation and intuition to learn...it's a true plant spirit person's plant in that sense...you have to ask it, not others (except for a few of the pioneers here at the nexus )

keep the great work coming in, and thanks for it

I finally managed to get them to come out of dormancy after almost three weeks of continuous daily watering twice a day. This variety is notorious for it's long and persistent summer dormancy as it was bred for the long dry and hot North African summer.

This stage of growth as in the picture is when this aquatica is most potent. I bet those young blades dried and ground into a joint will be active.

Second picture is semi dry grass from last year at the same stage of growth (first and second growth after break of dormancy). That small handful of grass wouldn't weigh more than 30g gave one joint worth of extract that was able to blast 4 people off into oblivion and that's a joint one of the least efficient ways to smoke a tryptamine. I fertilized with a mixture of ammonium phosphate/ammonium nitrate at that time.

This time around am using ammonium sulfate with potassium silicate and a silicate rich biostimulant for foliar spray. Am keeping the soil moist all the time to enhance soil microbial life and soil chemistry. August Heat should improve the rate at Which everything works.

Ok this is huge!

Just rolled 10 days or so old aquatica seedlings into a joint (dried). It's definitely active!

First thing that caught my attention was that tryptaminish smell I perceive with smoked extracts. Then a tryptamines rush with a bit of elevated heartbeat. There was the beginning of a headspace that was short lasting then it was just a good amount of euphoria that took an aphrodisiac nature.

The joint was smoked in three tokes around 2 minutes in total.

Before smoking the seedlings joint I smoked another joint same quantity from the first growth third tops from the patch seen in the picture in the previous post. That one didn't bring any effects. So I had something to compare with that further confirms the activity of the seedlings and eliminates bias and placebo effect.

This experiment reminds me of benzyme's extraction and analysis on brachystachys. It was such a Very tiny amount of seedlings that yeilded incredibly high.

If 10 days old dried seedlings could bring such effects I would imagine a simple alcohol extraction could work.

My hypothesis now is that the younger the grass is the more it's concentrated in alkaloids. I have also performed a biostimulant foliar spray application in the seedlings

Edit: the inactive joint from the third tops of first growth after break of dormancy this August was actually wilted and dead material that was damaged by the summer heat.

I haven't yet tested fresh and healthy first growth after summer dormancy. That should be my next experiment.

That younger grass is more potent is known, Sidhi. That one very young aquatica with rue experience I had was the craziest concoction of DMT, NMT, various tyramines, and who knows what else that I have experienced (along with being possibly the closest encounter I have had with physical death).

Young grass probably also has a higher concentration of (cardiac) glycosides and I am guessing that those are what we should be focussed on eliminating much before gramine.

And didn't you also try smoking brachystachys leaves and got effects from that also?

I only tried smoking paradoxa leaves back in the day and it was definitely euphoric.

The cyanogenic glycosides couldn't end up in your tea since it breaks down while boiling into hydrogen cyanide HCN gas so it must have been something else (unless you didn't heat your tea enough)

Yes brachystachys seedlings were also active but much milder and more extended. The come up was also slower with colours enhancement effect. Everything looked more crystal clear. Less physical effects. It alwaya had Very clean profile but also always suffered low yeilds.

I still think cloning the right aquatica and arudinacea is the way forward simply for the faster growth rate and the ability to clone them.

At least that's the way am moving forward with grass.

I'm not sure that the glycosides are sufficiently eliminated with boiling...

The fast growth of aquatica is really a thing. But who knows maybe brachystachys can be assisted in accelerated growth. Just imagine applying all the supplements you recently tried on aquatica from which you got amazing results, on brachystachys... And not to mention variability in strains... It seems likely that larger strains grow faster. Next Spring I may go on a brachystachys hunt and start with a renewed seed bank of purely the large strain I mentioned.

You know already, for me phragmites > brachystachys > aquatica, even though they all have unique amazing powers. For me the way forward is phragmites. I'm probably lucky to have discovered several strains in my country with substantial DMT dominant, rue compatible tryptamine content.

Brachystachys boasts the truest Ayahuasca analogue... Really mind blowing and healing. Medicine with phragmites is unique and amazing; the additional hordenine, bufotenine, 5 MeO NMT, the sugars etc all form a healthy coherent sacrament. Visionary, aligning, empowering, unifying, musical (and of course healing...)

As you know in my experience local brachystachys and phragmites didn't yeild anything for me. Besides true and tried strains sold online, local grass species are limited by it's geographical gene pool and is a matter of sheer luck I believe.

You should be counting your blessings my friend. Active phragmites aren't the norm, even a rare incidence I believe.

Yet each of these separate species tested on its own weren't active so go figure! Think this goes beyond just plant chemistry and more to do with the soil itself and the spot where you harvest from.

Keep in mind that in the 90's based on the entheogenic review aquatica and arudinacea have consistently delivered reliable results both smoked and as Ayahuasca analogue. Still it wasn't the case for you dithy

I find myself in the same situation with brachystachys 🤷🏽‍♂️. We work with whatever we got after all. Working with local species will always have its own special place in my heart. And to this day my most favourite journey was that oral cocktail of phalaris species in spring (brachys, paradoxa, truncata) now that was a true medicine for the soul. The synergy was just perfect! Can't say how it compares to traditional Ayahuasca but I can attest to its healthy balance the presence of a genuine guiding spirit to it.

I didn't perceive a specific plant spirit to it more like an earth spirit specific to that area where I harvested.

Just for some perspective, Phragmites didn't give me any DMT the first perhaps 10 trials spanning a whole year, two Springs. Eleven years later, starting experiments again, and I am guessing a few hundred experiments so far (spanning three years), and I am starting to consistently taste the fruit. Of course, what kept me going and motivated has been the fact that I am very sensitive to plants effects and I appreciated what I got from phragmites very much even in the absence of DMT.

Luck is a necessary element for sure, but it's not the only requirement.

P.S. Paradoxa still awaits our discovery... 😊 your most special experience having it is also a motivator.

That most special experience that had paradoxa was gray and dull a certain point during the journey it was black and white with closed eyes visuals of planets grey as the moon with an alien headspace.

Then I remember your experience with paradoxa when you said it was grey also. The rest of that journey for me was upbeat and perfectly balanced... Except for a violent storm at beginning of the come up. Literally jumped off my seat in complete terror somewhat like the terror of a decent dose aquatica smoked extract.

It had many different phases but the largest chunk of the effects were very positive and bright. Some parts were stimulating while other parts were sedating sometimes both at the same time. like I could be physically feeling heavy and can't move much yet am very awake and vigilant and can notice the slightest sounds and movement.

I like that the brew had a message. It was a clear unmistakable effort to communicate with me. That spirit felt sometimes playful other times serious. It's like there was this female figure representative of nature and a male figure representing some sort of shaman. Who exists around the spot from where I harvested these grasses.

Both the grass and rue were local even though not from the same spot.

Cocktails of grasses are definitely worth exploring. I know chimpzee had some experience with that. Those sort of brews cannot be something new unexplored before. I am sure there was a tradition for drinking these brews in the past from what experienced.

...well, these are developments

Sidisheikh.mehriz wrote:

that's impressive..
i had previously nominated phalaris in general (at this stage) as more of a future solution for home grown tryptamine extraction..in contrast, phragmites certainly has a long known record of safe oral ingestion. The extraction results of Fourthripley around a decade ago demonstrated the clarity and ease of the process with P. brachystachys...benzyme and others demonstrated high yields..

It's good then to know then (especially in the context of this being in the Ayahuasca section) that:

dithyramb:


..there are present unknowns with oral ingestion of Phalaris aquatica in particular that have lead myself and others to suggest it more as a future solution for extraction..there were strong concerning physical reactions unexplained by the known alkaloids (mainly just DMT) in an Italian aquatica strain tried orally by Giorgio Samorini and a colleague in the 90s...these days he seeks purge free 'ayahuasca' ..anyway..these effects certainly may be related to fresh and/or young growth...



..this could be true depending on the amount of boiling. To be fairly sure there are no cyanogenic glycosides it would be better to first dry plant material, then boil for a few hours..in a ventilated place..

Brachystachys, seems to have a reasonable safety history in limited human exploration, and also there are more peaceful aquatica reports than not..

and we have, as mentioned, a good body of pioneering Phalaris work on a few species by ChimpZ, respect

Sidisheikh.mehriz (on Phalaris) :

dithyramb:


I agree that each of these kinds of plants are each a unique medicine, and they should have their own names or concepts, not simply 'ayahuasca'...the decision to, say, go for pragmites over phalaris, or brachystachys over aquatica is one few would have the mental set for yet, so this is good to see this being discussed.

For oral ingestion, the holy grails of Phalaris may be an extremely localised phenomenon at this stage ..the right strain near an ancient Greek or North African ruined temple, for instance may be an extremely profound, spiritually and ancestrally rooted experience..such knowledge would have been built over generations and with discussion by the knowledgeable..this might be true also of a strain growing in a nearby ditch..i also think these grasses' vast ranges are on some level a signal of their past or future planetary importance too..Phalaris is louder and all-pervasive...Phragmites quiet and omni-present..


One reason i come still come back at times to post at the Nexus, is because this is the last bastion for people to access information of a very important cross-cultural tradition - the discovery of and relationship with plants (as teachers) ..we can trace a line through millenia - This kind of knowledge and approach to discovery (the same one which gave us the entheogens we know) is becoming rarer..

I would hope also as people identify unique strains of Phalaris (& Phragmites), and conduct cautious bio-assays, that they clone/root-divide and share with others, and send some samples to the nexus for testing..we often don't realise how important this kind of stuff is till many years later...

Ok so first extraction for this growing season. One month earlier than last year.

10g dried leaves from first and second growth one week apart, combined. This is the first time I ever got crystals from grass.

Pic 1: first growth harvest
Pic 2: second growth harvest
Pic 3 and 4: the combined harvests dried and powederized: 10g
Pic 5: the leaf powder after it's been cooked (I only performed one 45 mins cook before extracting) in spring water with a pinch of citric acid filtered out and pressed in a syringe with a cotton filter to squeeze out the last bit of solution to form these solid grass pellets.
Pic 6: the extract taken soon as the chloroform has fully evaporated to leave that clear yellowish oil
Pic 7: two hours later the extract solidified creating these tiny shiny yellow crystals.

This time around I won't be smoking the extract since I already tried it countless times before andi am very familiar with it's potency and activity so I'm keeping this one to send for analysis.

Eyeballed that looks about 18 to 20 mg of spice in there. Never tried an extract in such small harvest before. 10g! I wasn't expecting this yeild!

Scraped up the extract this morning only to find it was still very oily, somewhat vaseline. The smell of tryptamines given off is stronger when freshly Scraped.

So today I attached a tiny speck of extract on the syringe needle.

Turned on a lighter at the lowest setting underneath the needle tip from a distance till that speck of extract started melting and giving off smoke. Quickly I removed the heating and inhaled the smoke and held in my chest for like 6 seconds

Instant familiar tryptamine rush with ringing in my ears. What's the threshold dose for 5-meo-dmt? I don't even think I smoked a 1mg. Something going on here that's not just 5-meo. Whatever is in there is so freaking potent. Synergy perhaps. Can't wait to see the analysis of this extract.

I don't know about the threshold dose of 5meo, but I've vaped trace amounts of synthetic 5meo, and I mean really trace amounts, not even a milligram, and it was still enough to overwhelm me. So I'd say it's most likely just 5meo. Also, in my experience, smaller amounts of 5meo are somehow more overwhelming since you're not really gone, your ego is there and resisting it and that often triggers some sort of "run away" response which makes the experience more difficult. I found it relatively easier to handle 5-6 mg (I have pure white flakes, even 5-6mg are more than enough to breakthrough), I was just gone, I was no longer trying to run away but could fully embrace it. But on lower doses I always have much more discomfort.

That makes sense. Thank you for shining on this. I have zero experience with the pure spice so this is valuable info.

I just now took apart an allergy nasal spray cleaned it up and will use it for intranasal route. Got a 0.5ml and 1ml insulin syringes for measuring solutions of the citrate salt.

It's getting bit complicated because the nasal spray pump hold some volume in it that doesn't get used so need to experiment a little bit with this.

What's the current knowledge on getting rid of gramine? Also, can you separate nn-dmt from 5meo-dmt?