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A neuroscientist and a philosopher just settled a 25 year old bet Options
 
JustATourist
#1 Posted : 8/29/2023 9:50:43 PM

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World-renowned neuroscientist Cristof Koch and the philosopher David Chalmers (famous for popularizing the “hard problem of conaciousness” AKA how can “inanimate matter” give rise to subjective experience) just settled a bet on consciousness they made 25 years ago.

25 years ago, Christof Koch speculated that science would be able to identify the “neural correlates of consciousness” (the parts of the brain sufficient for giving rise to consciousness), while philosopher David Chalmers claimed that science would not be able to crack the problem.
The bet is settled and David Chalmers won.

Not only is science not able to get around the “hard problem of consciousness”, it is also not able to identify exactly which parts of the brain give rise to consciousness.

https://youtu.be/plJXi54lp8c?si=XrhmauBEBlcWXNyv


As the video explains, two main theories exist today to account for this issue,
“Integrated information theory” and “Global neuronal workspace theory”, the latest published data shows that both theories fail, and there is no consensus.

Consciousness is a tough nut to crack, huh? Smile
 

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Pandora
#2 Posted : 8/29/2023 10:46:42 PM

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Let's face it. We are 55 years behind where we should be on these types of questions due to the hysterical and histrionic as well as racist drug policies which affected not only end users but very well intentioned researchers.

Now that we are beginning to get up and running with this kind of research, as well as having modern tools, I suspect some real answers may be coming to many of these questions in the upcoming decades.
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Tomtegubbe
#3 Posted : 8/31/2023 9:31:33 PM

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My recent interest has been in Advaita Vedanta philosophy which states that consciousness is the fundamental nature of reality and objects are just projections created by this all-pervasive consciousness.

If this is to be the case, it's futile to search for brain functions that give rise to consciousness. Of course you can study how anesthetics operate in the brain and see that at one point awareness of your body and senses is cut off. However, if consciousness comes first, the question about the links between body-mind-consciousness cannot be solved in the paradigm of reductionist materialism, which can't but assume the consciousness to be an emergent property of matter.

We come to the limits of the scientific method as it stands here. Natural science as it stands is the study of "objective", but consciousness is at the core very subjective. We can only get information about it through self enquiry.

Of course, consciousness is related to the mind and mind is related to our neural functioning and studying these links through conventional scientific means do serve a purpose, but there comes a limit the naturalistic paradigm can't cross. The most profound question that goes beyond this is "what is consciousness anyway?"

And there are answers to this question in philosophy. What is left when you cancel all the ever changing objects of consciousness? What was there five minutes, five years, five billion years ago? It's the unchanging "I am".

Maybe our scientific research needs to take seriously the ancient science of consciousness if it wants to get further in it's pursuits.
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universecannon
#4 Posted : 8/31/2023 11:00:42 PM



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There is a growing body of research indicating that the brain has the characteristics of a resonance chamber, facilitated by resonance between the microtubule system. Hameroff and Penrose have some very interesting theories in this area. IMO you aren't going to solve the consciousness mystery without taking into account quantum physics and subcellular levels. The computer analogy (each neuron is just a node in a computer) can only carry us so far.



<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
JustATourist
#5 Posted : 9/7/2023 10:45:25 PM

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Tomtegubbe wrote:
My recent interest has been in Advaita Vedanta philosophy which states that consciousness is the fundamental nature of reality and objects are just projections created by this all-pervasive consciousness.

If this is to be the case, it's futile to search for brain functions that give rise to consciousness. Of course you can study how anesthetics operate in the brain and see that at one point awareness of your body and senses is cut off. However, if consciousness comes first, the question about the links between body-mind-consciousness cannot be solved in the paradigm of reductionist materialism, which can't but assume the consciousness to be an emergent property of matter.

We come to the limits of the scientific method as it stands here. Natural science as it stands is the study of "objective", but consciousness is at the core very subjective. We can only get information about it through self enquiry.

Of course, consciousness is related to the mind and mind is related to our neural functioning and studying these links through conventional scientific means do serve a purpose, but there comes a limit the naturalistic paradigm can't cross. The most profound question that goes beyond this is "what is consciousness anyway?"

And there are answers to this question in philosophy. What is left when you cancel all the ever changing objects of consciousness? What was there five minutes, five years, five billion years ago? It's the unchanging "I am".

Maybe our scientific research needs to take seriously the ancient science of consciousness if it wants to get further in it's pursuits.


Well said. I recommend having a look at Bernardo Kastrup. He comes to similar conclusions but from a pure analytical philosophical perspective.
His views and those of Advaita Vedanta overlap a lot, as he explains in his discussion with the head of the Vedanta society of New York Swami Sarvapriyananda, here:



 
Voidmatrix
#6 Posted : 9/8/2023 2:21:35 AM

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This is unsurprising to me, but that may be because 1. I'm a skeptic (philosophically) and 2.I've entertained similar ideas for a long time.

Tomtegubbe wrote:
If this is to be the case, it's futile to search for brain functions that give rise to consciousness. Of course you can study how anesthetics operate in the brain and see that at one point awareness of your body and senses is cut off. However, if consciousness comes first, the question about the links between body-mind-consciousness cannot be solved in the paradigm of reductionist materialism, which can't but assume the consciousness to be an emergent property of matter.


Well said. It's funny that science assumes that it can "objectively" declare anything about consciousness other than what we may call byproducts of consciousness. But that's the "issue;" what assumptions are we operating from, how much have they been scrutinized, and when is it time to scrap them. We have to start somewhere, so atomic propositions are always somewhat baseless or reflective of our intersubjective limits.

Tomtegubbe wrote:
We come to the limits of the scientific method as it stands here. Natural science as it stands is the study of "objective", but consciousness is at the core very subjective. We can only get information about it through self enquiry.


Kind of why phenomenology became a thing, where philosophers began expressing more about experience than anything meant to be purely objective, that is, looking at reality and objectivity through the lens of subjectivity.

Tomtegubbe wrote:
And there are answers to this question in philosophy. What is left when you cancel all the ever changing objects of consciousness? What was there five minutes, five years, five billion years ago? It's the unchanging "I am".


Well isn't this Cartesian Smile Cogito Ergo Sum. The conclusion of Descarte as he throws the existence of everything, including his own "mind," into doubt.

universecannon wrote:
There is a growing body of research indicating that the brain has the characteristics of a resonance chamber, facilitated by resonance between the microtubule system. Hameroff and Penrose have some very interesting theories in this area. IMO you aren't going to solve the consciousness mystery without taking into account quantum physics and subcellular levels. The computer analogy (each neuron is just a node in a computer) can only carry us so far.


Wouldn't it be funny if somehow it was discovered that there was some itty bitty, smaller-than-subatomic-particles "thing" that generates consciousness? Laughing

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What if the "truth" is: the "truth" is indescernible/unknowable/nonexistent? Then the closest we get is through being true to and with ourselves.


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downwardsfromzero
#7 Posted : 9/9/2023 9:44:11 PM

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Voidmatrix wrote:
Wouldn't it be funny if somehow it was discovered that there was some itty bitty, smaller-than-subatomic-particles "thing" that generates consciousness? Laughing


I hereby christen dub them "noöons".

You may continue.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
dragonrider
#8 Posted : 9/9/2023 10:35:02 PM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
Voidmatrix wrote:
Wouldn't it be funny if somehow it was discovered that there was some itty bitty, smaller-than-subatomic-particles "thing" that generates consciousness? Laughing


I hereby christen dub them "noöons".

You may continue.

It would be quite ironic if we would find out that counsciousness is being generated by no-ones.
 
Voidmatrix
#9 Posted : 9/9/2023 10:49:47 PM

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DR wrote:
It would be quite ironic if we would find out that counsciousness is being generated by no-ones.


Makes me think of how the word "utopia" is a misnomer for its usage, given that it's etymology derives from the Greek "ou" which means not, and "topos" which is place. Not place, or no place Laughing

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What if the "truth" is: the "truth" is indescernible/unknowable/nonexistent? Then the closest we get is through being true to and with ourselves.


Know thyself, nothing in excess, certainty brings insanity- Delphic Maxims

DMT always has something new to show you Twisted Evil

Question everything... including questioning everything... There's so much I could be wrong about and have no idea...
All posts and supposed experiences are from an imaginary interdimensional being. This being has the proclivity and compulsion for delving in depths it shouldn't. Posts should be taken with a grain of salt. 👽
 
downwardsfromzero
#10 Posted : 9/10/2023 10:19:33 AM

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I'm also reminded of the anecdote from one or other of the psychedelic researchers in the early '60s or thereabouts. He was describing how he felt as though the layers of his mind were "peeling away like the layers of an onion", to which his wife - helpfully or not - replied, "When you've peeled away all ihe layers of an onion you'll see there's nothing there."

IIRC the trip may have got more challenging for him at that point (and I do wonder if he grasped the deeper meaning of it too - that perhaps he ought to help out in the kitchen more) but there we have it; we're digging to the deepest layer of consciousness and we might just find - noöons there.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Cavemen
#11 Posted : 9/23/2023 3:31:57 AM

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doesn't the pineal gland located in the middle back of the brain give rise to consciousness
 
clearlyone
#12 Posted : 9/24/2023 12:27:45 AM

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I’m also in the consciousness only camp with Bernardo.

Perhaps the layer of the onion is being/knowing. However I try I can’t go any farther back. I am. And I know that I am. Everything else proceeds from this. IME, There is nothing except the knowing of experience and objects of experience are simply the activity of the knowingness that I am.

The hard problem of consciousness disappears along with the notion of matter (as a thing in itself).
"Blinded by their own sight, hearing, feeling, and knowing, they don't perceive the radiance of the source. If they could eliminate all conceptual thinking, this source would appear, like the sun rising through the empty sky and illuminating the whole universe." - Huang Po
 
 
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