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Ethyl acetate approach [CIELO] Options
 
Toshido
#1541 Posted : 8/16/2023 12:17:28 AM

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Loveall wrote:

Thank you! Hope you enjoy the process 😊


Too far back to dig up the post from 6 months ago but I believe I had followed the steps incorrectly because I used 10g of citric acid monohydrate instead of the recommended 5, (And you rightfully called me out on that) and I also used my coffee grinder to powder the CA as I thought maybe it would dissolve faster but it ended up just clumping on the bottom.

For my second run I will use 5g and not powder.

I believe I also used 230mL of water when liming the cactus powder. I for one have a difficult time determining what "mashed potato" consistency is because I enjoy my mashed potatoes both thick AND super creamy. My viscosity tastes are wide ranging lol.

Perhaps anyone on here listening can post photos of their consistency while doing their extraction? I fear I should have gone with 250mL. The cactus I have is hard to grow in my region, and I really want to get this next extraction right as it's my last 100g.

It's funny, I've nearly perfected DMT extraction, so I find it embarrassing that I struggled with the CIELO which on paper is so simple and effective, and I thank you for that Loveall.
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"You are an explorer, and you represent our species, and the greatest good you can do is to bring back a new idea, because our world is endangered by the absence of good ideas. Our world is in crisis because of the absence of consciousness." - Terence McKenna
🙌 "Dang, that's really impressive for a first extraction. Those xtals are nicely resolved." - Benzyme 🙌

 

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starbob
#1542 Posted : 8/16/2023 3:50:30 AM

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I like the example of play-doh or cookie dough consistency, but I think quite alot of folks go a bit wetter than that.
Some pics here back in time of a dryer consistency I usually aim for:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...mp;m=1137330#post1137330
 
Toshido
#1543 Posted : 8/16/2023 4:04:51 PM

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starbob wrote:
I like the example of play-doh or cookie dough consistency, but I think quite alot of folks go a bit wetter than that.
Some pics here back in time of a dryer consistency I usually aim for:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...mp;m=1137330#post1137330


Thank you! Very helpful!
🌳👨‍🔬🌳 - My A/B Hot Plate TEK - 🌳👨‍🔬🌳
🍜🍜🍜 - Don't Heat Your Naphtha, Heat Your Soup! - 🍜🍜🍜
✴✴✴ - White Spice vs Yellow Spice - 🌟🌟🌟
"You are an explorer, and you represent our species, and the greatest good you can do is to bring back a new idea, because our world is endangered by the absence of good ideas. Our world is in crisis because of the absence of consciousness." - Terence McKenna
🙌 "Dang, that's really impressive for a first extraction. Those xtals are nicely resolved." - Benzyme 🙌

 
antichode
#1544 Posted : 8/22/2023 11:26:29 PM

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I’ve run a few cielo extractions now however I’ve been unable to crash anything out as yet. Took me a few goes to get my consistency right initially as everyone has mentioned that’s the main thing to get right. My calcium hydroxide is very very old. Maybe ten years so I thought I’d check the PH of some of my solvent pulls and they are showing 8 which seems rather low, I’m guessing my lime has changed somehow, can it react with air to form a different kind of calcium?

Ive ordered some fresh base to have another go.

All of my solvent pulls clouded up when I added citric acid however adding more acid did not do anything. Even pushing the dose up of 30mg/g to the point where the citric would not dissolve at all precipitated nothing. The solutions all clouded up and then cleared over the course of a few days.

Can ethyl acetate be used in place of xylene for a classic stb with naoh? Or will a strong base like that change the solvent in some way?
 
downwardsfromzero
#1545 Posted : 8/23/2023 2:48:58 AM

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antichode wrote:
can it react with air to form a different kind of calcium?
Yes - calcium hydroxide slowly (not necessarily that slowly, in fact) absorbs carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and transforms [back] into the carbonate. For this reason, those who work with lime products - such as lime mortar - will store it by mixing it into a paste with water and keeping it in a tightly-closed container, because CO2 penetrates the paste less readily than it can permeate the dry, powdered lime.

What pH were you expecting to see in your solvent pulls? How did you measure the "pH" of an ethyl acetate-based solution? Wouldn't it be better to check the pH of the lime paste before adding any solvent?

Ethyl acetate will react with caustic soda to form sodium acetate and ethanol, which messes up the extraction somewhat. You can produce calcium hydroxide (along with sodium chloride) by mixing lye solution with calcium chloride, however.

Lack of crystallisation with citric does rather suggest minimal mescaline getting pulled and it likely is your lime that's at fault. You could test a teaspoon of the lime powder by adding vinegar and see to what extent it fizzes because of carbonate formation. It's possible to crudely measure the volume of CO2 with the help of a balloon stretched over the test tube too. If you weigh the reagents you can make an estimate of the degree of carbonate reconversion by using this method. Further details upon request.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
antichode
#1546 Posted : 8/23/2023 3:38:37 AM

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I think I was expecting a ph of 9-10 based on comments in this thread. The smart thing would have been to test the paste as you said, but I didn’t do the smart thing. No I took my brand new probe and shoved it in the solvent, got a reading and then realised I now have a damaged probe 🤦

Ok we will see what happens with some fresh calcium hydroxide. The powder is from a range of plants all of which I’ve grown and they are all plenty active so I know that’s not the problem.

Is the reaction between sodium hydroxide and ethyl acetate determined by ph? Let’s say if I basified a tea I had extracted from fresh cactus so that it was juuust basic but not overly so would the ethyl acetate still fall apart?
 
downwardsfromzero
#1547 Posted : 8/24/2023 5:34:57 PM

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antichode wrote:
Is the reaction between sodium hydroxide and ethyl acetate determined by ph?
Sort of. The rate of reaction will (in this instance) vary with the concentration of hydroxide ions in a largely linear fashion, whereas pH is a logarithmic scale. Thus, under alkaline conditions, increasing the pH by one unit will increase the OH- concentration roughly by a factor of 10 [except it's actually the H+ concentration that will have gone down by a factor of 10 since that's what pH actually indicates]. So, 1 pH unit increase equates to EA [alkaline - acid is another matter] hydrolysis going approximately ten times faster.

If your sodium hydroxide concentration is such that the amount of free hydroxide is comparable with that of calcium hydroxide paste, the ethyl acetate should survive the extraction process. During the refinement of the CIELO method it was observed that slower pulls could encounter problems and this was traced to partial hydrolysis of the EA. What this also highlights is that the rate of hydrolysis is important - you could probably get away with EA pulls from a slightly stronger NaOH-basified mixture if you were really quick about it.

I can't quote the relevant concentrations off the top of my head, sorry!




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
antichode
#1548 Posted : 8/26/2023 1:42:10 AM

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Thanks for the chemistry lesson, that makes sense.

I have some fresh calcium hydroxide and upon mixing I immediately smelt a strong basic cactus smell so it all seems in order. I used a bit of mechanical help for the initial paste making which I highly recommend (although I’m not at a results stage yet).


Filtered EA is resting in the fridge for now
antichode attached the following image(s):
IMG_7255.jpg (451kb) downloaded 132 time(s).
 
downwardsfromzero
#1549 Posted : 8/26/2023 1:45:58 AM

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One more thing, the solubility of the NaOH, when compared to lime, has an impact on the rapidity of the hydrolysis for bulk reasons as well.

Looking forward to news of the crystallisation process!




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
merkin
#1550 Posted : 8/26/2023 6:28:20 AM

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antichode wrote:
I have some fresh calcium hydroxide and upon mixing I immediately smelt a strong basic cactus smell so it all seems in order.


Looks good! The odour I usually notice when making paste is the smell of ammonia!
 
downwardsfromzero
#1551 Posted : 8/26/2023 1:59:55 PM

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merkin wrote:
antichode wrote:
I have some fresh calcium hydroxide and upon mixing I immediately smelt a strong basic cactus smell so it all seems in order.


Looks good! The odour I usually notice when making paste is the smell of ammonia!

This will also be from the release of ammonia as well as other amines from the cactus material and not just the mescaline. It's still a positive sign that the lime is in good condition, of course.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
antichode
#1552 Posted : 8/28/2023 1:05:47 AM

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Well, no sparkly stuff to show for my efforts yet unfortunately.

This is my 5th attempt and so far no success. Every time I add the citric acid I see a lot of clouding, the EA goes completely milky, the clouds slowly begin to settle over a few days and then they just disappear leaving the solvent clear with almost no residue on the bottom of the jar, not even goo.

Paste seems well based, pulls happen as intended and look the part, solvent is filtered till its crystal clear, fridge rested whereupon some minimal water is found at the bottom so this is carefully left behind. Citric acid is added and clouding happens but nothing from there. I have tried to add more citric acid after a few days of no action so Im up to 10 or sometimes 20mg/g of solvent and still no precipitation of alkaloids.

When I add the citric acid it tends to clump and get a bit 'goopy' looking on the bottom of the jar. It does eventually dissolve however the way it looks like its sticky gives me pause, should it look like that? (last picture)

Where to from here? I have 5 litres of solvent currently sitting with no action. Im thinking at this point I should try and wash it with water and separate out whatever I can get too, would this work to soak up alkaloids and citric acid? at least I could then proceed with a little a/b on whatever I get.

antichode attached the following image(s):
IMG_7226.png (1,268kb) downloaded 93 time(s).
IMG_7257.png (1,082kb) downloaded 93 time(s).
IMG_7267.png (1,193kb) downloaded 93 time(s).
 
merkin
#1553 Posted : 8/28/2023 7:44:00 AM

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Have you tried freezing the solvent in place of or addition to the fridge rest? Maybe there's just a lot of water in the EA originally?

My only other comment is that the green of the cloudy liquid is a really light colour. I generally find with my plants that that preceeds a low yield. Higher yield powder seems to usually appear a much darker green (and a more intense red when torch is aimed at the jar). This may have absolutely nothing to do with anything though but it holds true for me. I thought it might be chloropyll related but it has always corresponded to yield. So, if true, that would point towards low alkaloid content in your powder. The only time this observation didn't apply was with old powder which was quite brown (old) to start with. That produced a much more gold coloured solvent though.

I find with some of the older plants which are quite woody the powder tends to not be so green and the yields lower as well. Also this is exacerbated if the entire plant was used for powder (more specifically the woody core).

No other ideas I'm afraid.
 
_Trip_
#1554 Posted : 8/28/2023 11:31:08 AM

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Antichode 5 attempts, all pedros? All the same strain or different varieties?
Disclaimer: All my posts are of total fiction.

 
Loveall
#1555 Posted : 8/28/2023 12:05:35 PM

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Antichode, what is in that last picture? Looks like a witish solid precipitate...
💚🌵💚 Mescaline CIELO TEK 💚🌵💚
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antichode
#1556 Posted : 8/28/2023 7:41:08 PM

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The last picture is a second addition of citric acid (first addition happened three days prior) after it’s sat for an hour or so. It does not like to dissolve and goes a bit goopy. It’s usually dissolved after a couple more days however and by that time (5 days after initial salting) the solvent is mostly clear

The solvent is emerald green when it’s pulled I think it’s just the lighting in the photos. I do notice however that the solvent goes a more pale yellowish colour after four days or so.

This is a mixture of cactus, whole cactus skin core, everything.
 
Loveall
#1557 Posted : 8/28/2023 7:56:09 PM

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Thanks. Do you have pictures of the cacti you used?
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💚🌳💚DMT salt e-juice HIELO TEK💚🌳💚
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antichode
#1558 Posted : 8/28/2023 8:44:52 PM

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Post #109 here https://www.dmt-nexus.me...osts&t=97302&p=6

I’d typically expect around 0.06% by fresh weight, whole blended cactus.
 
antichode
#1559 Posted : 8/28/2023 11:52:01 PM

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On Merkins suggestion I froze some EA obtained from a fresh extraction, interestingly a LOT of ice formed. It was in a sealed mason jar in the freezer so I doubt its condensation. When I performed a fridge rest for 24hrs I got 10ml of water at the bottom of the jar but frozen I seem to have ended up with all of this!

As an interesting aside the ice cold EA went through the coffee filter in an instant, much faster than at room temp. Why is that?

antichode attached the following image(s):
IMG_7273.jpg (153kb) downloaded 68 time(s).
 
downwardsfromzero
#1560 Posted : 8/29/2023 12:06:29 AM

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antichode wrote:
As an interesting aside the ice cold EA went through the coffee filter in an instant, much faster than at room temp. Why is that?

My first thought would be that dissolved water increases the viscosity - or perhaps the surface tension - of the EA more so than the low temperature does. Either of these helps it to pass through the filter more easily.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
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