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TEK: Smoking Mescaline(-Benzoate) Options
 
Brennendes Wasser
#1 Posted : 1/9/2023 1:52:44 AM

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[Originally thread started as a theoretical question, but now with all the data provided I replaced the original text. You can read it at Post #3, so the discussion along this thread was based around that text, not this current one]


So here is a TEK that can be used to convert Mescaline Citrate to Mescaline Benzoate, which is smokable. A little disclaimer: I dont think it's too much worth it, but I will just dump all the relevant information here, for the sake of documentation purpose.

Vaporization Theory

We all know that we can easily vaporize a huge load of freebase alkaloids. Most of them require temperatures of 150 - 200 °C. Many people (including myself) had the believe that these alkaloid molecules would simply detach as solitary molecules from a molten freebase-liquid into gas phase and then fly towards the lucky smoker, ultimately being absorbed in the lung and cause their effects. But here you have a nice explanation that this is not the case. The most meaningful arguments against this is that the vapor can actually be seen and it happens at a temperature which is far below the proposed boiling point, both indicating that not a true boiling process is happening, but instead an aerosol is formed. This aerosol can be formed way below the actual boiling point, so you more precisely just inhale tiny droplets, which form visible vapor due to light refraction.

As this seems to be the process while evaporation of freebase drugs, it seems that this can even be done with Alkaloid-Salts. The only requirement is that the acid used to create that salt is "compatible" with that aerosol formation. The biggest requirement is the ability to melt prior to ultimate Alkaloid degradation. For mineral acids that is not possible (DMT-Chloride, DMT-Sulfate, DMT-Phosphate, ...), but many organic acids indeed create DMT salts which melt before 200 °C. These actually can vaporize as they also form the same aerosol droplets, with an even bigger distance to the actual boiling point.

Now the big question is: Which acids are "compatible" and why? There is only empiric data and no validation on anything, but it seems that the acid needs to have the least possible amount of intermolecular interactions with itself and Mescaline, so naturally at best only low polarity / low electron-count groups. Secondly it seems beneficial if the acid is monovalent, meaning that 1x acid carries only 1x R-COOH group. Reason is that this also heavily increases interaction with itself, forming Dimers of R-COOH...HOOC-R. The last requirement is not really one, but it would be beneficial if the acid can form a crystalline salt, which rules out any alkane acid like Acetic Acid, which will always give a brown goo. If you create this, you dont have much beneficials over simply using the freebase as this will probably also degrade fast ...

Now here is the visualization of the given "rules". As you can see a divalent or trivalent acid like Fumaric Acid and Citric Acid are not that great for vaporization. They only vaporize partially and the rest gets combusted. The data does not tell if it is due to a chemical reaction of "reactive parts" of these acids or if vaporization simply is slowed down, so the chance of non-specific thermal degradation simply increases. In any way you can see that Benzoic Acid vaporizes cleanly to a very high %, only above 230 °C something happens, maybe some degradation starting, so evaporation should happen at ~ 160-190 °C.



Dont be fooled by the absolute values: They more give an idea if the compound will evaporate cleanly (the curve drops into very low values) or if strong pyrolysis happens (curve will stop at high values).
Regarding the ideal vaporization temperature, this is not where the curve hits low values, but where the curves actual start dropping. For Mescaline Benzoate it would mean 170 °C is just fine for full evaporation - if sufficient airflow is granted, taking away the aerosol droplets above the liquid layer, enabling formation of more droplets and so on.



How to get Mescaline Benzoate?

Trials to directly precipitate Mescaline Benzoate at the end of a potential CIELO variation failed. Solubility is very high, in contrast to DMT Benzoate, which for example easily precipitates from Toluene and Limonene. Even Limonene is still a too good solvent for Mescaline Benzoate and prevents crystal formation or maybe other molecules from the cactus that are also dissolved at the end increase solubility and prevent precipitation. The most promising route would be extract from totally dry Cacti Powder with hot Naphtha and add Benzoic Acid, but also this did not give great results so far ...

Therefore the only working way is to create it from pure isolated Mescaline salts. As smoking this is anyways not the ideal form of consumption, it would anyways not matter being forced making a conversion by hand just for fun ... As a sidenote step 2.1 of the TEK is not easy if you just perform it with small amounts like < 200 mg.


(1.1) Take 500 mg Mescaline Citrate (= 260 mg Mescaline Freebase) and mix with 300 mg Ca(OH)2 until homogeneously
(1.2) Add 2 ml water and mix again
(1.3) Evaporate until completely dry. After crushing it must fall around free flowing like the powder at step (1.1). You can use an oven at 50 °C with air ventilation on. You can track the weight and aim for reaching (500 + 300 (- 150 water) =) 650 mg powder.



(2.1) Place it in a filter paper (I used a lab glass filter) and NOTE TOTAL WEIGHT (optional, but recommended). Pour 10 x 5 ml Aceton on top of the filter, collect Aceton coming out.
(2.2) Dry the filter + remaining powder at 50 °C in your oven COMPLETELY. Check weight again, you must have removed ~ 260 mg (all the Mescaline Freebase). If not, use more Aceton. Possibly you will only reach like 95 % removal, dont worry. You will see the remaining powder turning from light-brown to totally white again (Ca(OH)2 + Ca-Citrate). Afterwards make sure you got no Ca(OH)2 traces in your Aceton. It is very fine, so some might have gone through paper filters.
(2.3) Evaporate all the Aceton. The brown liquid is Freebase Mescaline. Sadly it did not solidify in Freezer, but according to Literature it could be solid, but react with H2O + CO2 from air over time, forming Mescaline-Carbonate.



(3.1) Calculate the removed weight x 0,63 (Ratio of Mescaline to Benzoic Acid) and weigh that amount of Benzoic Acid. For 260 mg Freebase Mescaline it would be (260 x 0,63 =) 164 mg. You can also use 150 mg to make sure you 100 % will not have excess Benzoic Acid that you risk smoke later on. Dissolve both Freebase Mescaline and Benzoic Acid in 1 ml Toluene each (for Benzoic Acid might need heat).
(3.2) Combine both into 1 and put into Freezer. Strangly it will take over-night to precipitate.
(3.3) As we use so little Toluene, you cannot decant. Instead place into Filter and wash with Naphtha until white or faint-coloured. At this point only 206 mg from theoretical 424 mg were collected. You may evaporate the wash Toluene-Naphtha-Fraction separately to recover the rest. You can check if you really got Mescaline Benzoate by putting a small crystal in a tiny water droplet. It will dissolve, while Benzoic acid would not (and Freebase Mescaline would not be a solid).




Smoking Mescaline Benzoate

Smoking this stuff should only be done in a device that allows precise heat control. Loveall and DF0 have already pointed out that Benzoic Acid carries the risk of decarboxylation at high temperatures, which would create cangerogeneous Benzene. Dont use an open flame at random distances, the distance for over-heating by a few 100's °C might be pretty small.

I used my Spice Rotator dab rig, that has a tea light mounted on a certain distance, which is perfect for smoking DMT. That means it should be pretty constant around 170 °C, this value was used as the vaporization diagram (at start of post) is quite in accordance with that.

In order to potentially maximize the effect also 150 mg Harmin were eaten 1,5 h prior to smoking. Indeed it was mentioned across this site that the effect on cactus would be low. But in my feeling Harmalas anyways just extend a trip instead of potentiating. That is why probably long-lasting trips dont get any synergy, as they anyways last longer than the Harmalas itself. But when smoking a short-lasting trip might still get some effects I hoped.

Smoking 200 mg Mescaline Benzoate took ~ 20 min, so apparently 10 mg / 1 min can easily be smoked.

It was observable that the absorption in the lungs is a little weaker than DMT, 10 s holding breath is not enough to absorb all the vapor.

Also the vapor is quite pleasant or at least not harsh, indicating that there is indeed no combustion in the ideal case (like seen as near-full evaporation in diagram).

Still, it was a little tedious to do a vaping for 20 min straight. Inhaling, holding breath, loading chamber with more, inhaling, [...] for 20 min straight is quite annoying. Even if the vapor is quite okay, it's pretty stupid I have to say ... Thumbs down So that is where I already believe this is not a useful ROA.

Another problem is that while in theory the vaporization is pretty clean and without combustion, there is an inherent shortcoming when vaporizing HUGE LOADS of stuff. You might imagine a pretty high mountain of molecules, which all are above their vaporization temp (or let's say aerosol formation temp). Naturally, even the lowest ones would just fly off and vaporize in air. But because there are 1000000's of layers of other molecules warping around on their shoulders, the ones at the bottom simply cannot get up. Therefore they are forced to stay at the glas bottom and remain at > 170 °C for dozens of seconds. At this point the probability for combustion increases more and more and if held back from evaporation for too long, it's near safe that thermal degradation will happen. Therefore I had to change my Banger at halfway-through, as it was just terribly charred. Man that looks just disgusting lol Twisted Evil Twisted Evil




Still, I like when I can see how vaporized Alkaloids (or Salts in that manner) have condensed at the glass walls. Pretty close to the Banger/Bucket itself the glass tube also gets yellow due to partially-degraded molecules making their way through. Luckily all that stuff easily gets cleaned with hot DMSO.

Now after recording the weight before/after cleaning my banger I knew how much Mescaline Benzoate degraded before I could vape it, which was 38 mg. That means


I smoked (200 - 38 =) 162 mg Mescaline Benzoate
= 102 mg Freebase Mescaline
= 196 mg Mescaline Citrate
= 119 mg Mescaline Chloride

It was my first Mescaline experience ever, so I have actually no clue what to compare for Big grin Big grin Big grin Anyways, it was roughly like that:

- Body felt quite weightless, like drifting through space
- Very warm feeling inside
- Body felt like melting on my sofa
- Visual sight was strongly altered, but NO CEV/OEV, still hard to describe how it was different
- Getting up from sofa and walking was not too easy, felt like having 3-4 beer

Overall effects would describe it like 15 mg 2C-B. Probably decent for a dose equivalent of 120 mg Mesc-HCl, which would be 1/4 of an average dose Mesc-HCl if I understand correctly.
Still missed some kind of morphing of homogeneous surfaces, like pillows / carpets, which would be quite distinctive for any psychedelic, also no true CEV/OEV.

Effect lasted 2 h to 2,5 h, roughly same like smoking 2C-B (although that stuff being X-times stronger at same duration).



Conclusion:

I think smoking this stuff is quite funny, but not too much more than that. The potency is okay to get a definetly moderate effect. Also the vapor is not harsh. But due to the sheer amount of material to be smoked it means you will inevitably still combust like 10-20 %. Then regarding aiming at psychedelic effects it means that going through a pretty annoying phase of vaping for MANY minutes in a row until you might reach the desired plateau, this is not what a relaxing onset of a trip would look like.

So in total was an adventurous journey, but after all I think there is no need to forcefully create this Mescaline Benzoate. Still, it shows the potential synergy of using Benzoic Acid with an Alkaloid to smoke stuff, that otherwise was overall regarded as non-smokable. But sticking to safer-use guidelines obviously remains the golden rule!!
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
downwardsfromzero
#2 Posted : 1/9/2023 4:09:59 AM

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From what I recall, anecdotal reports of attempting smoked or vaporised mescaline administration suggest that it is a waste of material - the potency of mescaline itself is too low for vaporisation to be a viable ROA.

The point of using benzoates is their solubility in the e-liquid rather than any particular thermal resistance or intrinsic volatility.

[EDIT: the November 2023 update of the OP now makes this comment redundant - nice work, BW!]




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Brennendes Wasser
#3 Posted : 1/9/2023 8:58:24 AM

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[Old text from originally creating this thread January 2023:]


So this rather sounds like a super stupid question. But I will explain ... probably could be shorter but here you go:

There has been a lot of evidence that soft ions of DMT Salts can vaporize just nicely. Benzoate seems to be a perfect example, while salts of mineral acids like H2SO4 just decompose. Maybe this has been a long secret, as the most common salts created by the Nexus are Fumarate and maybe on rare occassions acetate. Fumarate is a double-functionalized acid, therefore having a higher charge density than benzoate for example and may identify already a little more as a hard ion like sulfate. Therefore it might not vaporize (will verify next week) and the nexus consens was salts cant be vaped (as I would also think normally). DMT Acetate on the other hand is a sticky mess, where nobody probably dared to handle it. Still I read that people told of vaping it and now after further investigation -Acetates and -Benzoates indeed vaporize just at +10 % temperature than Freebase DMT.

My goal is to check out some more of these combinations and make a thread soon. _Trip_ and Loveall got some interesting finds with -Lactate AKA Lactic Acid. I will make some pH measurements of vapor emitted from all these so we might get an actual better insight. Furthermore this maybe opens some interesting possibilities to make Bufotenin vaporizable without polymerization/combustion: In a molten salt the cations may not polymerize due to coulomb deflection of their charges, making a polymerization step less likely due to not reaching a close proximity or at least slow it down. Also generating a macromolecule which is heavily charged is more unlikely.

Long story short: Soft ions of Tryptamines seem to be able to vaporize and there might be some interesting applications.

Sadly there is 1 Alkaloid which I dont have and therefore can't verify if it can be used too, which is Meskalin.



Now a short disclaimer: Because I have 0 ideas about this compound this whole thread might be completely pointless. But I'm writing that down here so in case that there are any reasons of restricting that whole thing, you can directly tell here.



Can you SMOKE Meskalin-Benzoate?


In some way Mescaline and DMT share quite some properties:

> Readily available from extracted plant material
> Outstanding weak drug when administered orally (AKA easy prey for metabolism)
> Can be experienced better with an enhancer (Mesc: Beta Carbolines from Cacti or DMT: Harmalas/Caapi)

With the exception to DMT that people found a sneaky way to get past the metabolism barrier by just smoking it.

Mescalin is loaded with ether groups, that will increase vaporization temperature quite a bit. But on the other hand I found MDMA (just for the sake of Science) vaporize efficiently at 120 - 160 °C and the structural similarities are vast. It is a smaller molecule, but that Methylen-Dioxy-Bridge might actually have a higher dipol moment, so the difference in vaporization temperature might be minuscule. Wikipedia tells Mescaline vaporizing at 300 °C and MDMA at 120 °C at 0,026 bar. As I told above, you can evaporate the latter easily before 150 °C at 1 bar! So I am really convinced Meskalin Freebase can be vaporized below 200 °C.

Now probably nobody has tried it, because a primary amine like Meskalin is decomposed very easy by Oxygen, just like Tryptamin. But on the other hand it could be masked as a salt, which might actually enable vaporization.

I guess Mescaline is usually precipitated with H2SO4 or now the new go-to CIELO TEK using Citric Acid by Loveall. While the first one definetly is not a soft ion, citric acid may be also not convenient due to the high charge density.

But what if you create Mescaline Benzoate, which I suspect to vaporize easily at 180 - 230 °C?



You may agree that there is a difference of day-and-night between Pharmahuasca and smoked DMT. So what if that could be done for Mescaline too?

A previously weak and overloaded Alkaloid might readily get past any metabolic pitfalls and could also get you a free rocket-ride comparable to DMT.

I guess the amounts required would even be easily smokable, as I believe the threshold for (pure) DMT oral activity was somewhere written to be 1000 mg, while for Mescalin it is way below. Not a direct causal connection, but probably 20 mg of Meskalin Benzoat vaporized will give a strong effect. Obviously it is not as safe as DMT, but I guess Mescalin is still regarded as having a good safety profile, compared to other PEA like 2C-B > DOB > 25B-Nbome.



So at the very last how could this easily be verified? No need to smoke any unsafe chemical in a bioassay.

- Place like 20 mg Mescalin Benzoat on a small glass slide (like microscopy slide)
- Record weight on your mg-Scale
- Place on your stove and turn on low heat
- blow like crazy on the liquid when you see first vapors coming = fortify vaporization instead of pyrolysis
- stop when no more vapors coming, remove from stove (not by hand), cool down and record weight

Probably it will turn black at the end once it reaches > 300 °C, but if it has lost most of its weight then, I'm sure this was due to the classic Alkaloid evaporation instead of pyrolysis. In that case you would probably keep your weight mostly, while just creating tar. If that not happens, I guess that already points towards a quite gentle evaporation.

So if any cactus owner is bored, that would be a really interesting experiment that might open some new and weird doors? Confused

And again if I made any misassumptions: Just tell me that this idea is bullshit then Laughing
 
downwardsfromzero
#4 Posted : 1/11/2023 1:47:50 PM

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It was never my intention to discourage a well-thought-out experiment here, as it would certainly be a valid experiment to attempt.

Attaining active dose effects at such low levels would be a breakthrough for conservation efforts with this rare and precious molecule. E-juice with mesc benzoate seems like a worthwhile place to start, assuming it shares the solubility properties of other alkaloid salts in VG/PG.

It really depends on the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of mescaline though. Have you examined the data for IV mescaline in animal studies?

We have to be cautious because all of the safe use experience with mescaline comes through the millennia of oral - and to a certain extent, nasal - use.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Brennendes Wasser
#5 Posted : 1/11/2023 4:03:34 PM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
It was never my intention to discourage a well-thought-out experiment here, as it would certainly be a valid experiment to attempt.

Have you examined the data for IV mescaline in animal studies?

We have to be cautious because all of the safe use experience with mescaline comes through the millennia of oral - and to a certain extent, nasal - use.


Ah yes absolutely, I was just hoping to get any feedback as I have no idea about this compound. That's why I certainly also dont know too much about any IV studies etc. :/

Seems also legit - the safety profile is definitely proven via the traditional ROA.
 
downwardsfromzero
#6 Posted : 1/13/2023 5:44:26 PM

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Vaping mescaline benzoate was discussed in this thread. Mindlusion anecdotally agrees that the potency of mescaline is likely to be to low for this to work - but no one has tried, have they? You would need to be able to guarantee getting at least 30mg of mescaline absorbed through the lungs within a reasonably short time period.

Here's a suggestion that potency of IV mescaline is significantly greater than oral, so this vaping idea may yet sprout wings.

Over at Drugs Forum, here's something down that rabbithole that resembles data a bit :
"The other thread is 100% correct that Mescaline cannot be "smoked"; but a gerbil of mine vapourised 150mg of crystalline freebase mescaline with definite effect. It seems to be a waste, as the effects taper off five hours from ingestion; perhaps it is useful while already in a psychedelic trance, but not particularly otherwise. This is why there is a lack of reports in either direction; why waste valuable mescaline? "

That was with FB by itself, though, and not benzoate in juice so who knows what the dosing efficiency could have been like. Wikipedia now lists the BP of freebase mesc as 180 °C (356 °F) at 12 mmHg so that doesn't look terribly promising. There's every chance that ejuice with mesc benzoate would be a better bet. It could even be a way of experiencing a shorter but still sufficiently strong mesc trip. I'd still be inclined to be cautious about the cardiovascular effects with this.


Proceed with care.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Brennendes Wasser
#7 Posted : 7/31/2023 8:24:45 PM

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So now I received some Mescaline Citrate and turned it into various salts to check their vaporization efficiency. More coming with a mescaline property post soon with much more properties.

First Mescaline Citrate:




As you can see the evaporation with the Citrate Salt is not very clean. Citric acid decomposes upon heating, so this is no surprise as the anion determines quite some properties of any tryptamine salt. When I just made a hotplate experiment, it rather forms a sticky ball when melting around 120 °C and it also shows a rather broad melting peak in DSC (uploading this week). So while the curve constantly drops, it is not very fast and not very *harmonic*, instead in plateaus. Probably this is due to a sequence of decomposition reactions of at least citric acid, maybe some reactions in conjunction. So this salt might not be good in any "concentrate evaporator" like E-Mesh or Dab Rigs, but still could be evaporated via gadgets that rely on nebulizing.

Second Mescaline Fumarate:




Here is the fumaric acid salt. The evaporation is again not very efficient and stopping even at 50 %. In general, higher temperatures are required than with benzoic acid salts measured before. This is probably due to the salt being created from a di-valent acid, binding to up to 2x Mescaline, which probably has some more complex evaporation kinetics. I have made some hot-plate experiments to simply validate if Fumaric Acid salts (of DMT) at least give off vapor, which they did. This result makes me think that di-valent acids (like Fumaric/Tartaric/Succinic) might be not very good for designing salts made for evaporation.

Lastly Mescaline Benzoate




Here the evaporation is pretty perfect. It starts at the same pretty low temperature of just around 200 °C like the other Benzoate salts measured so far. Pretty low, considering that Mescaline has some functional groups that should decently push its (true) boiling point and this also this evaporation should be higher than less polar alkaloids like DMT. In any way the evaporation curve shows quite a harmonic shape (no idea how to express it differently, but you will know Big grin Big grin ) indicating that there is probably no further combustion reaction. Also Evaporation goes to 10 % even before 250 °C, with even near complete evaporation before 300 °C. In any way this curve indicates that 200 °C is just perfect to evaporate Mescaline Benzoate with enough airflow.





Now 40 mg Mescaline Benzoate was evaporated in my Spice Rotator at probably 200-210 °C. Vapor was super smooth, but of course I also took it in quite some portions to go just as slow as possible as this is probably not very established Confused Still the largest hit was probably 20 mg at the end, which definetly was easy even for me being a non-smoker. Absolutely no residue inside the Banger, all evaporated cleanly.

I could feel quite some body change even with the first few mg's. Still that did not change much after all the 40 mg have been vaporized, which would translate to 25 mg Freebase Mescaline, which would translate to less than 10 % of a dose which would be *considered moderate* for oral consumption. Considering this low fraction, the effect was quite remarkable with a warm and relaxing body feeling, that went great with some Calming Fantasy Music. Lasted roughly 25 min I would say ... Would be now interesting if any visuals would arise from 60 mg or 80 mg? But now I already used up all what I was given Twisted Evil Crying or very sad

Now I would be quite interested in how it would be when smoking it on full MAO-inhibition. I read that the effect on the actual cactus trip would not vary too much. But it would be interesting to try it with smoked Mescaline Benzoate still? Confused

Lastly had the feeling I had to hold it longer than DMT vapor, otherwise while exhaling there was still some vapor coming out. Would be intersting to know which properties of a substance make it faster to congeal with lung tissue than others? But holding it for 15 seconds was definetly enough, while I feel for DMT 10 seconds is often sufficient.

Definetly interesting, but would need some more to continue with experiment Rolling eyes

Attached picture of Mescaline Benzoate, pretty epic needles just like re-xed Benzoic Acid will look. Still 100 % acid-free Twisted Evil
Brennendes Wasser attached the following image(s):
Meskalin-Benzoat-Nadeln.png (199kb) downloaded 306 time(s).
 
skelly0311
#8 Posted : 7/31/2023 9:46:57 PM
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This is exciting news. I have some mescaline citrate I am going to convert into mescaline benzoate, then I'm gonna try this out myself. couple of questions.

1. I'm assuming Spice Rotator is a vape pen u smoked out of? Did u dissolve the mescaline into anything, such as PG/VG? (I don't vape so I don't know much about vaping stuff)

2. How did you convert the mescaline citrate to mescaline benzoate?

3. what do you mean when you say,
Quote:
Still that did not change much after all the 40 mg have been vaporized, which would translate to 25 mg Freebase Mescaline, which would translate to less than 10 % of a dose which would be *considered moderate* for oral consumption.
How is 40 mg a moderate dose for oral? Or do you mean it felt like a moderate dose?
 
Brennendes Wasser
#9 Posted : 7/31/2023 10:03:40 PM

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Obviously it would be important to take care, as that is not really an established ROA Embarrased So also just take small amounts and also pretty important would be using something that can prevent over-heating. Carboxylic acids can basically pop off to CO2 at high temperatures, in this case leaving behind hazardous benzene. So everything that works by using a torch lighter might not be precise control Shocked


For question 1:

This is a funny small device I created years ago. I use it for anything and it works better than anything that I ever bought. It has pretty sweet "temperature control" to prevent combustion and maximum air flow to aid at getting good hits. Temperature can be adjusted to fit just any Alkaloid. As usual I just wrote way too much (potentially unnecessary) text, but it boils down to a very small and simply combo of glass pieces as you can read here. It will work like a dab rig, evaporation of pure "concentrates" without any solvent for maximum strength.



For question 2: (conversion from pure mescaline citrate seems the only way so far, as direct crystallization from a cacti extraction seems not really feasible currently?)

Conversion of Mescaline-Citrate to Mescaline-Benzoate:

1. Perform CIELO and end up with (preferably crystalline, for measuring weight) Mescaline Citrate

2. Mix Mescaline Citrate with an equal amount of Ca(OH)2 and add again water and mix it, until it looks very homogeneous. Let is dry out (either at RT or in an oven at low heat with ventilation). After this freebasing step dont wait too long, as it will react with CO2 and water from atmosphere and form again a salt, this time with Carbonic Acid = Mescaline Carbonate. It is advised not to do a true liquid-liquid extraction as freebase Mescaline has a better solubility in water than other Alkaloids due to having a non-methylated side-chain Nitrogen (and the 3x Ether groups).

3. Crush the Powder and mix with 5 ml Aceton per 100 mg of initial Mescaline Benzoate for 5 min.

4. Filter through Coffee Filter and wash all the remaining Powder in the filter with the same amount of fresh Aceton. Combine all the Aceton afterwards.

5. Take a light dish that you can weigh on a precise scale, note its weight and then evaporate the Aceton on top. Afterwards you can calculate how much Freebase Mescaline you carried over. If not received as much as expected, you can again wash the remaining Powder with more Aceton and evaporate. It should be at maximum 52 % of your original Mescaline Citrate used.

6. Dissolve the Mescaline Freebase from that Dish in 3 ml Toluene per 100 mg Mescaline Freebase. Then dissolve 50 mg Benzoic Acid per 100 mg of Mescaline Freebase in 1 ml warm Toluene and add it to the Mescaline Freebase in Toluene.

7. Place in Freezer. You will observe instant clouding and Mescaline Benzoate crystals growing.

8. Optional: Crystals can be looking great and purity will anyways be no issue, if you started with a good CIELO product. Still it seems you can recrystallize it in Limonene at 100 - 150 °C. You will notice crazily long crystals growing, just like pure Benzoic Acid after re-x. Still this is 100 % Mescaline Benzoate as you have not used any excess Benzoic Acid in step 6.



For question 3:

I never have taken any mescaline, so in order to kind of get an idea about the strength of 40 mg mescaline benzoate I simply calculated from the original CIELO recommended oral dose. it seems 500-600 mg of mescaline citrate is considered a common dose, which would contain below 300 mg Mescaline (Freebase). So smoking 40 mg Mescaline Benzoate would equal 25 mg of pure Mescaline Freebase, which would be less than 10 % of a common dose, if it would be eaten orally. Now considering that at least quite a body effect was felt, I have the feeling that it might be possible to at least get some effects this way, maybe when carefully smoking 20-30 % of what is considered a common dose orally.

Obviously both compounds are not the same, but in analogy:

When I have eaten 100 mg DMT orally this is quite having an effect like 10 mg DMT smoked which is just 10 % of the oral dose. So maybe it will be possible to somehow "get somewhere" by smoking Mescaline Benzoate, maybe also with MAOIs. But it could be also just possible that even 200 mg Mescaline Benzoate smoked = still only body-high. No idea as my sample is now gone Crying or very sad Big grin Big grin
 
skelly0311
#10 Posted : 8/1/2023 2:26:52 AM
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Thanks for the response. When you say
Quote:
Mix Mescaline Citrate with an equal amount of Ca(OH)2 and add again water and mix it, until it looks very homogeneous. Let is dry out (either at RT or in an oven at low heat with ventilation). After this freebasing step dont wait too long, as it will react with CO2 and water from atmosphere and form again a salt, this time with Carbonic Acid = Mescaline Carbonate.

should it be just enough water to properly mix the mescaline citrate with Ca(OH)2? Also, how dry is dry?

For the step
Quote:
3. Crush the powder and extract from this with 10 + 10 ml warm Limonene per 1 g of Mescaline Citrate

So the powder is the mescaline+CaOH2. what do you mean by 10 + 10 ml warm Limonene? 20 ml of Limonene?


Also, I'm assuming excess benzoic acid will bind to the limonene. Is their a known upper limit for how much benzoic acid can be inside the limonene before benzoic acid precipitation occurs?
Thanks again for your help

 
Brennendes Wasser
#11 Posted : 8/2/2023 6:45:29 PM

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1. It would be just enough water to not get chunks. Something like 2 ml on 500 mg Mescaline Citrate + 500 mg Ca(OH)2 might be already enough.

2. It should be extracted from this with 2x pulling, because the first one might still leave some goodies sticking to the fine-powdered Ca(OH)2 behind. Therefore a second pull is definetly not bad. Still much less pulls would be required when compared to extraction from bio materials instead.

3. There will be no benzoic acid precipitation, that is already taken in account! The final concentration is lower than precipitation of benzoic acid from Limonene. Even more if you use Toluene instead of Limonene.



I tried it again with some goo that I had. But I could not extract anything from it after mixing with Ca(OH)2 :/ No idea why, it gave quite a strong Freebase-Smell which you will know from spice extraction. But Freebase Mescaline is soluble in limonene and toluene Confused Can only think that this other goo contained nearly no alkaloids. Would be interesting how others perform on this when starting with some definite mescaline citrate, which is not goo.

Still at the end if you are not interested vaporizing it there would be no interst in converting it. Mescaline Citrate crystals just look crazy and of course can be eaten right away, plus vaping this other salt might be anyways too weak (but could not test any further).
 
skelly0311
#12 Posted : 8/3/2023 1:49:51 AM
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Cool I may just use toluene, as I already have that. Do you have any idea how stable mescaline benzoate is at that temperature? I wonder if using pg/vg would allow mescaline benzoate to evaporate at a lower temperature.
 
Brennendes Wasser
#13 Posted : 8/3/2023 8:09:02 PM

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As long as it will crystallize it should be extremely stable. Reason is basically all reactions will demand some mobility of the respective reaction partners and that's why you will mostly perform reactions in a solvent. If kept solid then only reasonable reactions happening could be like reaction of solid with compounds from gas phase. But something like this (solid DMT + O2 radical = DMT N-Oxide) restricted for an Alkaloid salt, so it should be really really stable. Only problem is that only applies to it staying as a solid. After you put it in pg/vg it is technically not solid anymore, but dissolved and therefore probably not stable for years. Might still be stable long enough? Loveall made quite some tests with DMT Benzoate in pg/vg and it seemed more stable than DMT Thumbs up

Also what do you mean exactly with allow vaping it at a lower temperature?

Evaporation of this salt as a pure compound requires 170+ °C. So with the pg/vg you mean it could be at less temperature?

Problem in general with the E-Juice and this compound would be that already DMT itself in an E-Juice seems to be hard to break through. So smoking it as a pure compound will "pack more punch". This might be even more important for mescaline when being smoked :/
 
skelly0311
#14 Posted : 9/24/2023 5:25:27 AM
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What's the purpose of these steps?

Quote:
3. Crush the Powder and mix with 5 ml Aceton per 100 mg of initial Mescaline Benzoate for 5 min.
4. Filter through Coffee Filter and wash all the remaining Powder in the filter with the same amount of fresh Aceton. Combine all the Aceton afterwards.


I don't have any acetone, so seeing if I can just skip them
 
Brennendes Wasser
#15 Posted : 9/24/2023 8:08:46 PM

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This is an annoying step as this seems to be the main reason why loosing some actives along the way ...

But this cannot be skipped: Here you now have Mescaline Freebase mixed with solid salts (Calcium Citrate + Calcium Hydroxide). And now you need to get only the Mescaline Freebase - this is done by mixing with Acetone, which will only catch up the Mescaline Freebase.

Theoretically you could directly go with Limonene and pull from here. But then you dont know 100 % how much Mescaline you now have at this stage. Therefore I wrote to take Acetone, evaporate the Acetone and weigh the stuff which comes out (you will need to weigh the whole container, as it might be oily). Then after you know how much Mescaline you actually dragged until that step, then you can add the corresponding amount of Benzoic Acid.
 
skelly0311
#16 Posted : 10/12/2023 4:23:02 AM
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unfortunately something went wrong and I wasn't able to crystalize the freebase with the benzoic acid. I have a feeling the issue arose from the acetone step. was hoping too test vaping the mescaline benzoate out this weekend to.

I'm still a lil confused about evaporating off the acetone. When the acetone evaporates, won't the mescaline freebase just form a salt again?

Anyways. I might try again next week.
 
Loveall
#17 Posted : 10/12/2023 6:05:26 AM

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Whenever I dried free-base mescaline it would not move well into acetone, limonene, etc. I cannot explain why. I always had to add water to do a liquid-liquid extraction amd then it would work. Because of this, I abamdoned acetone as a solvent.

How about trying CILLO and salting with benzoic acid? Edit: this was tested and did kot work.
💚🌵💚 Mescaline CIELO TEK 💚🌵💚
💚🌳💚DMT salt e-juice HIELO TEK💚🌳💚
💚🍃💚 Salvinorin Chilled Acetone with IPA and Naphtha re-X TEK💚🍃💚
 
downwardsfromzero
#18 Posted : 10/12/2023 2:25:53 PM

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Loveall wrote:
Whenever I dried free-base mescaline it would not move well into acetone, limonene, etc. I cannot explain why. I always had to add water to do a liquid-liquid extraction amd then it would work. Because of this, I abamdoned acetone as a solvent.

How about trying CILLO and salting with benzoic acid?
Won't this be because you'll have formed mescaline carbonate? Mescaline freebase remains as an oil at RT and readily absorbs moisture and CO2 from the atmosphere to form this (bi)carbonate. It does seem paradoxical, though, that the aqueous solution was extracting into a nonpolar phase, in contrast with the stability behavior of things like calcium bicarbonate; however, those are inorganic salts and with an organic base like M the equilibrium gets driven in the direction of dissociation into the freebase once traces of freebase start getting removed from the aqueous phase by the NPS. In the solid M carbonate it seems like the ionic forces must be holding things in place too strongly.

This makes me wonder if hot solvent and a longer time would help drive dissolving solid M 'freebase'/carbonate. What were the conditions when you produced this solid material - was it by evaporation in contact with the open atmosphere? No controlled atmosphere like vacuum/dry Ar or N2 being used? And what solvent temperatures were used for the dissolution experiment?
(I'll check your link too...)




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
skelly0311
#19 Posted : 10/12/2023 2:58:08 PM
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Loveall wrote:
Whenever I dried free-base mescaline it would not move well into acetone, limonene, etc. I cannot explain why. I always had to add water to do a liquid-liquid extraction amd then it would work. Because of this, I abamdoned acetone as a solvent.

How about trying CILLO and salting with benzoic acid?



How about CITLO instead, I see you wrote

Quote:
CITLO: Toluene salted with benzoic acid. Worked for mescaline in preliminary testing.


here. https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=98968

So I'm assuming this has been tested and works?

If not I'll pick up some limonene and try CILLO
 
Loveall
#20 Posted : 10/12/2023 4:33:36 PM

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skelly0311 wrote:
Loveall wrote:
Whenever I dried free-base mescaline it would not move well into acetone, limonene, etc. I cannot explain why. I always had to add water to do a liquid-liquid extraction amd then it would work. Because of this, I abamdoned acetone as a solvent.

How about trying CILLO and salting with benzoic acid?



How about CITLO instead, I see you wrote

Quote:
CITLO: Toluene salted with benzoic acid. Worked for mescaline in preliminary testing.


here. https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=98968

So I'm assuming this has been tested and works?

If not I'll pick up some limonene and try CILLO


I just saw a comment in the threads thar CILLO did not work with benzoic acid.

Sorry, so many tests and combos, hard to keep track.

At this point, to get the Mescaline Benzoate some extra steps are required. Mini A/B on cielo product worked for example. Also, your concentrated extraction.
💚🌵💚 Mescaline CIELO TEK 💚🌵💚
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