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Salvinorin A + γ-CD = also fail Options
 
Brennendes Wasser
#1 Posted : 4/11/2023 11:41:46 AM

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So to make it short β-Cyclodextrin did not work to complex Salvinorin A and I believed it might be due to the big size of Salvinorin.

Now got me some Hydroxypropyl-γ-CD and tried it = same result. Solution stays simply opaque instead of getting clear after 24 h stirring.

Made also a vial without Salvinorin to show that solution must be clear if complexed successfully.

200 µl water
73 mg Hydroxypropyl-γ-CD (= 3x EQ to be safe)
6 mg Salvinorin A

Following picture shows after 24 h of stirring (left). Still opaque = no complexation. After additional 24 h of letting it sit it will sediment to the ground again.

Now not sure what else I could try and why this still did not work ... but not feeling like following this stuff anymore for now Confused
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Loveall
#2 Posted : 4/11/2023 4:09:59 PM

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I think we had good results with everclear (75% ethanol). I think we tested a 2:1 molar ratio of B-cyclodextrin to a crude salvinorin extract. The resulting powder was active at 25mg sublingually.

Edit: here is a thread with detalis

Edit 2: Unfortunately with crude extracts not sure if it was the other plant stuff or the cyclodextrin what made it work. I'd have to read the thread again to see if we figure that out
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Brennendes Wasser
#3 Posted : 4/11/2023 11:22:26 PM

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But is there some hint that this was indeed complexed? So target was to dissolve both and upon removing the solvent that molecule might snap into the CD due to close proximity. But in my idea as long as both are dissolved in the solvent at the same time, there might be no strong drive to push the drug into the host.

In contrast stirring in a solvent which will not complex seems to indeed work for DMT/Bufotenin/5Meo at least. Whatever powder is retrieved also got completely transparent once again it was dissolved.

So at least a good idea if complexation worked would be putting that resulting powder from the Everclear into water again and check if it stays transparent - if not I guess chance is high that just Salvinorin + CD precipitated along each other.

Thats the reason why I tried it that other route in just water, but that seems like a dead end now.

Also 25 mg is quite a lot, was it tested at any time if 25 mg of plain Salvinorin maybe has an effect on its own? Currently dont want to spend so much Crying or very sad Crying or very sad

Maybe tomorrow checking if a powder retrieved from Everclear-Evap will be transparent when put into water again.



Quote:
Unfortunately with crude extracts not sure if it was the other plant stuff or the cyclodextrin what made it work. I'd have to read the thread again to see if we figure that out


So chewing leaves was also a reported way, maybe making some help here? Would be just too sad if the plain boring leaves stay the only ROA besides smoking even after trying all those new chemical aid Embarrased
 
Loveall
#4 Posted : 4/12/2023 1:46:51 AM

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If I recall, need to check melting temperature to verify complexation.

By memory, chemical potential minimization drives complexation, which depends on the solvent system. What doesn't complex in water (but complexes in water/ethanol) will un-complex in water and crash out. It all depends on the chemical potential of dissolved complex vs. chemical potential for dissolved drug + cyclodextrin. There is also an equilibrium in solution different for each solvent system for:

Drug + Cyclodextrin <--> Complexed Drug

When this equilibrium is towards the left, it can be shifted to the right by adding more cyclodextrin if needed. Also, the amount of complexed drug may go up if the solvent allows more drug in solution, pushing the equilibrium to the right (but the change to chemical potential in the new solvent may override this, IDK).

25mg of complexed salvinorom at 2:1 molar cyclodextrin:salvinorin is only ~ 3 mg of salvinorin.

I recall correctly, I did try a clean salvinorin extract by itself and it did not work.

We also suspect cornstarch to be a good salvinorin carrier for oral mucosa absorption.
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Brennendes Wasser
#5 Posted : 4/12/2023 7:45:55 PM

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Makes sense with an equilibrium between complexed and free dissolved. I'm just pretty sure that it will be nearly only on the dissociated side :/ Because in my opinion it would be very disfavored if the guest enters the host as long as it can be dissolved just as fine in the Ethanol (or similar). So I'm not sure if there is an actual drive for the drug to enter the sugar even if decreasing volume to 0. Plus it was already mentioned somewhere the EthOH can compete for entering the cone, while water would not. That's why I think it would most likely just precipitate both unimolecular at the end, as there was not a real force that pushed the drug inside?

But even more a problem could be the mixture of water + ethanol. So water will make sure to dissolve the sugar and ethanol dissolves the salvinorin. But upon evaporation it will not keep it's volume fractions and thus I think it's inevitable that one drug will crash out prior to the other. Probably Ethanol still evaporates faster, that would most likely give a layer of CD on top of a small layer of Salvinorin at the end.

But that's just theoretical stuff, now I tried it also this way:

1. 6 mg Salvinorin A + 2 EQ hydroxypropyl-BETA-CD + 2 EQ hydroxypropyl-GAMMA-CD (to be sure with molecular size) dissolved in 75 % Ethanol
2. Evaporation at 50 °C and 50 mbar
3. resulting product dissolved in water and check if it is a clear solution or Salvinorin not dissolved

Quote:
What doesn't complex in water (but complexes in water/ethanol) will un-complex in water and crash out.


Now that would speak against a test like this, but I think it's more reasonable that there is always a certain energy minimum for a drug entering the host, so complexed state should be always the same after solvent is removed. But that's just an assumption, later down there is some info from literature.

First the tests with that 75 % Ethanol:



At the end the salvinorin remained - which did not happen to the Tryptamines when being complexed :/



So speaking for that route by using some force to push the drugs into the hosts, this seemed always successfull with the Tryptamine Tests. All 3 Tryptamines tested were simply placed on top of a high-concentration solution of beta-CD in water and stirred until the solution became clear. Was instantly for molten Tryptamines due to basically infinite contact area opposed to powder. But then after removing the water the powder still dissolved in water completely clear. So in that regarded complexation must have worked.

I checked some literature how other people are doing it. And all the examples I found just made the CD solution and then simply stirred whatever drug they had for as long as needed to get a clear solution.

Here is the original patent from 1988:

https://patentimages.sto...b8bbffe10/US4727064.pdf

If read at *Example 3* and *Example 4* they speak about just adding in water and stirring. They even use excess of the drug to make sure the CD is loaded to the max and then stirr in just water. Then afterwards filter what could not be complexed and that seems it.

At second example they told you could remove the water and it will remain complexed, adding in water again will dissolve 100 %. That's why I'm convinced it must be a solvent which will not dissolve the drug but the CD only :/ When doing so it seems to be accelerated if the drug either has a (very) weak water solubility (Bufotenin) or if the drug can be molten below 100 °C (so most Tryptamines apart from Bufo). But both not the case for Salvinorin. So thats why I have no clue what to do next Thumbs down

Still maybe that 25 mg in 75 % Ethanol could also have worked and maybe still did not dissolve in H2O. But 25 mg is already a hefty amount, does it maybe show activity on its own then? Could be tried again with 25 mg of pure compound + CD or even 25 mg Salvinorin only - but if not recovering the stuff it will be an 'expensive' experiment Embarrased
 
Loveall
#6 Posted : 4/13/2023 8:10:59 AM

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Thank BW, that's pretty convincing that salvinorim did not complex with the help of ethanol. Thank you so much for all this work. I'll try to dissolve some of my old stuff in water and see what happens.

Also, I must be wrong about the un-complexing in water allways happening. Maybe I read about a specific example of that happening. Sorry, going off memory.

While water alone can work well in many situations, I do think that ethanol can be used as a co-solvent to help in certain situations, (here is an example where it's helpfulness delended on the cyclodextrin type, in the hpbc-d case, ethanol became part of the complex Shocked ).

What happens (complex forms in water or other solvent combo, stable in water or not) may depend on the drug itself.

It does seem that salvinorin is not complexing since it didn't dissolve after the ethanol completion attempt.

PS: The 25mg does was 22mg cyclodextrin and 3mg salvinorin crude extract
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Brennendes Wasser
#7 Posted : 4/15/2023 11:06:02 AM

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Quote:
While water alone can work well in many situations, I do think that ethanol can be used as a co-solvent to help in certain situations, (here is an example where it's helpfulness delended on the cyclodextrin type, in the hpbc-d case, ethanol became part of the complex Shocked ).


I contacted the seller and he told that in most cases they recommend just using water, but it may indeed depend on the specific case. So for example for big steroid hormones where you have 2x HP8CD and 1x drug it may be different also.

Also wrote to the manufacturer Wacker but they wanted to know my specific case Twisted Evil Also told the company Ashland would take care about specific application questions, so if anybody does not dare to tell the company the true desire of usage, they could contact those right away.

Quote:
PS: The 25mg does was 22mg cyclodextrin and 3mg salvinorin crude extract


Ok then totally misunderstood - wow then this is indeed something. Maybe complexation STILL worked or also those plant ingredients helped. Because when I sprayed those (uncomplexed) 10 mg into the nose there was definetly no effect :/

But now still not in the mood to do more stuff here, I did not even vaporize any of the Salvinorin extracted Crying or very sad Crying or very sad Still too scared from my experience years ago in Amsterdam lol




Besides I tried to at least do something with that sugars. Tried the stuff which the hot nymphs are advertising: 200 mg Harmin + 200 mg THH + 100 mg DMT complexed with HP8CD sublingual ayahuasca active under tongue, reported to give a pretty strong effect.

Some things I have to mention which seem different from his mentionings:

> 2-3 droplets seem way too less for dissolving 100 mg DMT + corresponding amount of HP8CD (I used 1,3 EQ to be safe, which comes near 1 g of sugar). Best results for easy dissolving I got with like 1:1 ml:g of water:HP8CD. So at the end I had quite a lot of liquid, could not just put it under tongue.

> He wrote water cannot be evaporated, it will form a sticky blob. But it can be done and it will be rock hard, like sugar. So I evaporated all the liquid down into 3 small pieces of tissue. Should have done 1, but I was impatient, so instead spread on 3. All 3 were completely hard. That point is quite cool as you can handle it then much better.

> He wrote the sugar masks taste. But that's not the case ... I put those 3 papers under tongue and got a strong sting. Actually the manufacturer claims it has no taste, so maybe it's a statefrom originating from there. I attached the brochure of the manufacturer. Cavamax = Cyclodextrine, Cavasol = hydroxypropyl-Cyclodextrine.

Hydroxypropyl serves the only purpose to increase water solubility (more accessible OH groups outside of the cone). Cannot find original thread, but he wrote HP8CD = 1200 M and hydroxypropyl cyclodextrin = 1400 M. But both are identical and have 1400 M. What has 1200 M is the regular cyclodextrin without hydroxypropyl functionality.




So I ate 200 + 200 THH + Harmin and after 1 h I already got a strong buzz from those ... sadly also quite some nausea and was quite near throwing up Crying or very sad Quite strange, I thought Harmin would be even less nauseating than a mixture, as Harmalin is the stronger one?

Then put those 3x "DMT-HP8CD-Blotter" below tongue. Indeed strong ginger-like burning ... does not make sense that it masks the taste. At some point the DMT has to leave the cone and diffuse through a membrane. So naturally some free DMT will be inside of the mouth. It will just have no taste when you keep it in the cone AKA when administering something as a tablett. But tabletts just go down the throat so there is no time for un-complexing. That's why taste masking is probably not something that will help in this case.

I never liked any sublingual stuff, because I constantly get mouth full of saliva and have to hold everything for 15 min. So this time was same situation. Not very pleasant Sad This sadly went even worse as I indeed have to throw up at T + 8 min. Then experiment was over Embarrased Thumbs down But at least I still got quite some DMT effect. Definetly more if I did not threw up, but it felt like ~ 10 mg smoked and lasted for ~ 30 min strong + 30 min fading. Was quite pleasant to just relax and listen to this great tune:

Skyrim Ambience - Night (10 h version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ou1pl0XNRs

Now to conclude I found it difficoult to keep all that stuff below tongue, but that's the case for any substance I tried. Also in my eyes more liquid is required to dissolve that complex, so if not evaporating down, I think it's hard to keep it below tongue. Last but not least the string is unpleasant to wait for 15 min, but that's again something which I would probably have from any other substance too. So just posting here for information and cyclodextrin brochure and also pictures of "DMT Blotters" as I found the idea funny, but probably wont do again.
 
monomind
#8 Posted : 5/8/2023 4:53:29 PM

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I am not very knowledgeable on the chemistry side. However, still looking for the "best" ROA for salvia. I dont like smoking and a quid is a bit much, given that I need at least 4g of dried leaf..
I tried the cornstarch procedure (by Zebbie) and it works flawlessly. Same effect per amount of raw leaf used, but much more pleasant to hold in your mouth. it gets a bit like a jelly texture after a while which you can swish around your mouth.
I also like very much the grounding effect the sublingual ROA, a quid or other than wise.
Anyways, my ideal ROA for most substances would be rectal (a recent discovery I made) so I was thinking if it is possible to complex saliva extract with hpb8d and dissolve the product in vegetable glycerin (or even water?) and boof.
Seems the complexing procedure is not so straight forward, if at all, and also there is at least one publication claiming hpb8d can cause hearing loss ???
So quite confused by it all by now... yet if anyone have experience/ideas for a a salvia rectal ROA, would love to hear about it Thumbs up
 
 
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