I was wondering for dosing for ayahuasca/pharmahuasca, what's the worst that can happen if you take too little MAOIs. It doesn't seem much discussed, but my guess is that the trip simply doesn't last very long and won't be very intense, worst case you won't feel anything and end up wasting some DMT and MAOI.

Since I have a lot of time to experiment, it seems like a very safe approach to under dose MAOIs until I hit a good balance.

On the other hand, what's the worst that could happen to the ayahuasca trip if you over-dose MAOIs? By overdose I don't mean literally overdose, but just take too much?

Yeah you practically answered your own question there in the first three sentences. If you under dose your harmala alkaloids you'll most likely get a lesser experience for a given amount of N,N-DMT. If you overdose the harmala alkaloids you'll get the most bang out of your buck for a given amount of N,N-DMT, however you're likely to experience a lot more nausea and dizziness. It's good practice to use harmala alkaloids on their own before adding N,N-DMT so you can find the goldilocks zone for the MAOI and because harmala alkaloids on their own rock, especially since you can go about your day under the influence on them just as you would a cup of coffee, provided you don't overdo it of course.

P.S. If you haven't got a scale already go get one so you can weigh out your doses and find your sweet spot. I'd personally recommend starting with 50mg of harmalas and adding 25mg increments until you reach your desired dose, mine being around 100mg.

Too much MAOI and you may just feel incredibly bad and can't really focus on anything but getting through the trip.

For those of you who can't get hold of a milligram scale yet, it's still possible to calibrate your does relatively accurately by dissolving your known mass of harmalas in a known volume of vinegar. Aim for a concentration that gives you maybe 20 or 25mg per mL. You can then measure out doses with a pipette or a (brewer's) measuring cylinder. If you have a more accurate way of measuring volumes you can make the solution more concentrated (i.e. use less vinegar), which most would probably regard as being a good thing. For example, I happen to have some small measuring cylinders with 0.1mL graduations which definitely come in handy on a regular basis.

One aspect of using vinegar is that, besides keeping the harmalas in solution, it stops the harmala stock solution from going bad.

The disadvantage of this is that the vinegar makes the taste experience even worse, but I've found that you can take the edge off this by adding a crushed-up 400mg magnesium supplement tablet containing magnesium oxide and magnesium carbonate (but don't be tempted to add more magnesium salts as they'll have a laxative effect!)

This converts some of the harmine into the freebase, so you'd have to make sure that you got all the sludge as well. (Yum!) Having a bit of suspended freebase in the mix is advantageous if you're bold enough to hold it in your mouth/under your tongue for a while as harmalas taken sublingually are far more effective than via the oral route.

The magnesium seems to smooth the experience a little as well.

Adding honey is another option for making the stuff seem slightly more palatable, and neither are the two taste improvement methods mutually exclusive. Truth be told, I still wonder every single time why I make myself go through this only subsequently to feel I've earned the positive effects once they manifest. It feels like sitting with a swami or something, even on an average day.

One thing to be wary of with the volumetric dosing approach is that slow evaporation of the solvent may lead to the last portions of the potion being significantly stronger than the initial ones, although this is less of a problem with vinegar than it would be with ethanol, for example.

Thanks for explaining the process for finding the right dose, any tips on how the goldilocks zone actually feels? I have not taken harmalas yet so not sure what to expect at all

If you feel almost nothing at all, it's not enough. If you're nauseous as hell and can't walk straight, it's too much.

I find it really hard to describe how harmalas feel (somehow even more so than with any psychedelic), partly because there's not really anything spectacular. It's subtle yet it can go quite deep. It's a somewhat dreamy state for me, usually really harmonious, introspective. You'll see

hello everyone, i have been experimenting with boiling 1gr of oral RUE for 10 minutes and 20 minutes later i dissolved a tablespoon of coke with 100mg DMT + 50mg harmalas from caapi vine (some people take dmt together with imao others take imao before, i tried both forms simultaneously), I felt the first effects 10 minutes later, and continued to rise until 90 minutes after which I peaked for, and began to decline for another 90 minutes until I felt no psychedelic effects other than a deep peace and great harmony with my life.

the experience was quite mild, some visuals with closed eyes, I would dare to compare the effects equivalent to 2gr of mushrooms, several questions arise: did I take the dmt too fast? maybe more harmalas would protect and increase the effect of 100mg dmt? I don't have much harmala to experiment with, but I think that next time I'll take the same 100mg dmt and increase to + 2gr of rue + 100mg of harmalas..........I'll tell you how the experience goes... .....Cheers

1g of rue is way too little.

[At least we now know what happens if you don't take enough MAOIs! ]

I would suggest you take at least 2.5 grams of rue, boiled up in at least two batches of water, if you don't want to waste the next lot of DMT.

You can also use your caapi harmala extract sublingually, less is needed that way.

hello,
maybe too little for you, did you mean?, because I doubt very much that if I am 40 years old and weigh 120kg it would be the same as being 15 years old and weighing 50kg it would be very IRRESPONSIBLE to prescribe or recommend a dose without even taking that into account, much less exposing it as a fully tested recipe, however make it clear: I have been experimenting, when I say this is my final recipe, there you will be able to determine if I did it wrong or not........... now it does not seem to me to waste dmt, is it optional, or have you not simply wasted by recrystallizing? or even worse when preparing changas, eliquds etc, everything is waste... my advantage is that I live a walk to the Amazon trees, before suffering panic attacks I never imagined taking psychedelics, I didn't even know that such healing medicines were prepared from those trees

hello, YES I wanted to do it but I wonder if it serves to inhibit the mao of the intestine? today I took 2.5 gr of rue 40 minutes later + 80mg dmt + 20mg harmalas fb, after 10 minutes I took another 40mg dmt and 20mg harmalas fb, after 15 minutes I had to vomit unequivocally, the effects are VERY MILD, although I feel very nauseous, Could it be that he vomited part of the dmt? but the first dose after 20 minutes in theory should be completely absorbed, i hope to buy a kg of caapi and drink tea and combine it with harmalas fb, as downwardsfromzero said i should increase the imao to avoid waste....
the vomit makes me think i take the right amount of imao, but so few effects with 120mg dmt?

If you're 15 years old you shouldn't be on this site. But you're right - it would be more prudent to include abundant caveats regarding dose/body weight ratios; in my fairly extensive experience (as someone of barely 60kg at that), 2.5g of rue should not be too much to handle. And coming to this site presupposes a certain element of personal responsibility so it swings both ways.

It's unfortunate that you vomited so soon (maybe this upset you?) but equally it's well known that a side-effect of pharmahuasca can be nausea and vomiting, especially if you've not been able to take the time to get accustomed to the effects of harmala alkaloids alone. It could also be that the 'strong effect' that cha hoasca had planned for you at first would be physical rather than far-out visions or deep insights...

You're far from alone in experiencing difficulty in dialling-in to the desired effects of this medicine but you'll surely get what you need (if not what you want) in the end. It takes time and practice to learn the ways of the medicine, one of the main points being that it's somewhat unreasonable to expect instant results.

It's a learning path - and your comments contribute to my development as well!

1g of boiled rue seeds is likely too low of an amount for inhibition for almost anyone, hence DF0s general statement...

However, I weight roughly 63kg, with less than 5% body fat, and sensory processing sensitivity. I need a minimum of 2g of rue to feel any harmala effects and 3.5g for sufficient MAO inhibition. This is with rue alone and not with other sources of MAOI.

One love

If you're not getting a 4 to 5 hour fully orally active effect from oral DMT, you're either not using enough Harmalas, or the timing between the Harmalas and the DMT needs to be explored/tinkered with. I've taken as low as 1 to 3 grams of Mimosa root powder encapsulated, and with proper MAO-A inhibition going on when the DMT is orally consumed, you should get full oral activation. Granted, the dosage of DMT may also be a little bit of a factor, since if you don't take enough you may find yourself coming up but then things kinda just "drop off" but there should still be some effects for the full duration of 4 to 5 hours, ime, 3 hours at the least, anything less than 3 to 5 hours total for oral DMT means it's not being fully orally activated.

As i like to say, the more Harmalas you use, the less DMT you'll need, the less Harmalas you use, the more DMT you'll need, but the less Harmalas you use or if you don't get the timing right, the shorter the duration will be. I've had oral DMT come up and then quickly leave my system completely within like 30 minutes to an hour, due to improper Harmala dosage/timing.

Also, i'm very experienced with Rue, i've taken it pretty much daily/near daily since March 2012, in heavy dosages for the most part, with some breaks here and there over the years, and 1 gram of Rue definitely isn't enough, i wouldn't recommend less than 2.5 grams, not even 2 grams, it just isn't enough, but ideally i always go for and recommend the usual/average/common dosage range of 3 to 4.5 grams. And as for timing, i usually recommend 30 to 45 minutes to an hour between the Harmalas and the oral DMT, preferably an hour (particularly if in tea form) as an hour apart seems to do me best.

The only way i can see Rue dosages of 1 to 2 grams being sufficient, is in the rare case that someone is extremely low in the CYP2D6 liver enzyme (which metabolizes the Harmalas) or possibly they are already quite low in MAO-A, however i'd bet on the CYP2D6 enzyme personally, but in most cases (unless one also is really super sensitive to other CYP2D6 substrates), 1 to 2 grams will not be enough, i'm willing to bet that even with low CYP2D6 status that 1 gram wouldn't be enough, 2 grams maybe, but 2.5 grams possibly, but even then i doubt 1 to 2 grams is going to do much of anything for most people, like 99.5% of people quite possibly, even 2.5 to 3 grams for most people isn't going to take them as deeply as a higher dosage, but 3 to 4.5 grams seems to be where it's at for the most part.

I've also noticed that, because i take Harmalas/Rue regularly, it will build up a reverse tolerance which makes each dose, at the same dosage, stronger and stronger the more i take it, which as time goes on takes me into heavy Harmala territory without needing to up the dosage of Rue, also the side-effects will clean up/go away over time, so no more nausea/vomiting/possible diarrhea, the bodyload and headspace is cleaned up, and the motor function impairment is reduced, it overall feels cleaner, clearer, and more medicinal, and a lot more manageable even at heavy dosages. Anyways, as for the reverse tolerance, personally ime i've noticed a few things about it, firstly, that if i go down to 2.5 grams of Rue, it seems to be enough to build up the reverse tolerance or keep it going, to some degree, but below 2.5 grams, like 2 grams, the reverse tolerance isn't there, so there seems to be a level you hit in dosage where the reverse tolerance starts kicking into effect. Secondly, i've noticed that the more Rue/Harmalas you take, the quicker and stronger the reverse tolerance builds up, the less Rue/Harmalas you take, the slower and weaker the reverse tolerance builds up, so lower doses like 2.5 to 3 grams will take longer to build up the reverse tolerance as fully as say 3.5 to 4.5 grams would, especially 4 to 4.5 grams.

Now, if we're talking Psilohuasca, technically, Rue/Harmala dosage doesn't "necessarily" matter since Psilocybin/Psilocin is already orally active, however... For proper Psilohuasca, you still want to approach it in the same way as Aya/oral DMT, you want to take a good dose of Harmalas, wait 30 to 45 minutes to an hour, take the mushrooms (preferably mushroom tea), and the active gut MAO-A inhibition should properly potentiate the dosage of the mushrooms, and lengthen duration to 9 to 12 hours. But, with that said, since mushrooms are already orally active, you're more free to experiment with dosages and timing, however, the same rules apply to Psilohuasca that applies to Aya, regardless of oral bioavailability/activity of mushrooms, so you can try taking 1 to 2 grams of Rue with mushrooms, and while it might be enough to change things up a bit, it won't be like 2.5 grams to 4.5 grams of Rue, and the higher the dosage of Rue/Harmalas/Caapi, the more Aya-like it is.

But with that said, my best Psilohuasca experience to date/so far, was using 2.5 grams of Rue, 35mgs of 4-ACO-DMT, and 4 grams of Lemon Balm tea. But the time before that, i tried using 2 grams of Rue and 25mgs of 4-ACO-DMT, and yes the 4-ACO dosage was 10mgs lower which does make a difference, so too is there a difference in the 500mgs between 2 to 2.5 grams of Rue, so at the lowest, even for Psilohuasca, i'd recommend at least 2.5 grams, but ideally/preferably, 3 to 3.5 grams for a good moderate dose, and 4 to 4.5 grams for a good high dose, but if you wanna go heavier than that, i'd recommend building up the reverse tolerance and not going over 4.5 grams, more Rue isn't necessarily better, but more Harmala content certainly can be, at least once your body becomes accustomed to it and the side-effects lessen.

Also, imo, you may keep in mind that if making tea from the seed, you may not get all the goods compared to consuming the seed powder encapsulated, as while boiling some goodies may be "lost in transition", so 1 gram of boiled seed, unless being really careful to get every last drop pretty much, may not even be as potent as 1 gram of the actual seed, which further casts into doubt the potential of 1 gram being "enough", but even if you manage to get it all and it's no less potent than the actual seed, i still highly doubt 1 gram will be enough, and ime it seems to be true that 1 gram of Rue will not be enough for sufficient MAO-A inhibition. Again, maybe 2.5 grams, maybe 2 grams a little bit, but 2.5 grams really seems to be where things truly get started when it comes to Rue.

Also, a tip i picked up back in my experimentation if anyone would like to try it and report back on how it is for them - sip on the DMT-containing tea for 10 to 15 minutes, which lets the DMT kick in more smoothly/gently, which can help with lessening the come up intensity, but also may help lessen the potential for nausea/vomiting, maybe.

My best times where taking my Rue seed powder capsules or my freebased Rue/Harmala extract capsule, and an hour later sipping on my Acacia or Mimosa tea dose for 10 to 15 minutes, often times with 3 to 4.5 grams of Lemon Balm tea mixed with my Acacia/Mimosa dose, to smooth out the come up even more. Just something to experiment around with.

Great post ShamensStamen!
I've written about it before but I still wonder why I don't feel much from Rue alone. I've taken ~290mg extracted harmalas or ~4g of seeds as tea. I can sometimes feel a mild buzz in the body but nothing much else. A bit relaxed and in a metidative mode. And that I sometimes find it hard to go to sleep after taking it a few hours earlier. If I also take something else, like DMT or cannabis I can clearly feel that I've taken rue/harmalas but not much on it's own.
Well once I had a mug of strong cooffe an hour before drinking rue tea, that was a though ride of nausea for hours. Could only lay down still... but that also had its value.

brother, I thank you very much for your generous explanation, for taking the time and illustrating me in such detail, I tell you that in my country you can't get the RUE, and the one I bought cost me 12 dollars x 10gr, I just wanted to test the difference with caapi, well caapi tea does have an effect on me, and in my country it is very cheap, you can get 35 dollars for a kilogram of freshly cut caapi, fresh vine............





I took it in 2 shots 15 minutes apart, everyone vomits with 2.5gr of RUE the first few times??? it seemed strange to me that he vomited after so long, I was even beginning to feel the effects, with caapi I vomited at most after 20 minutes, that's why I trusted and took all that dmt, thinking that I was not going to vomit, that about grinding the seeds and taking them whole, I had not read about it here, or maybe I did not pay enough attention to it, however with your explanation, I will not waste any more medicine