So... basically the central feature of my idea, is to create (or find) a molecule, that is like a "gear chain" on a bicycle.

The exact specific molecular formula doesn't matter... I'm more interested in the CLASS of molecule, as there will be so many variations with different properties.

I just feel (or know) that there is a very important missing chemical in this class.

Much like carbon-ring (Benzene or anything containing it) has important chemical properties, via the electron-sharing. This compound should have important properties too.

I might just be barking up the wrong tree And it is probably something I would be 10 years off or so from being able to create myself (I'd need a lab + money to hire people... and I am poor).

So this is just pure aimless curiousity at the moment. But I always wanted to ask this question as I've been thinking about it for over 15 years now.

So... basically the chemical is like two circles, connected together, into a bigger circle. NOT like the 8 symbol, because 8 is connected at a point. In fact, I searched the whole Unicode database, there is no letter shaped in any official language that looks like this specific symbol. But is a vey simple and primitive shape.

The idea behind it is kind of symbollic.

"Two separate selves being part of a bigger whole".

two circles that form to make a bigger circle. That is how drive-chains work. One gear forces the other gear along, using a chain. So it isn't just symbollic, but also mechanically very useful.

but why not useful on a chemical level too? I kind of just know that it has some consciousness altering effects.

Obviously it probably wouldn't be like my chemical model I attached. Different Nitrogen or oxygen groups may exist, perhaps a long "chain" like DMT has could trail off of it. The drive chain itself could be of different length's, or maybe the chain could match DMT's "tail" in chemical formula.

But as long as "overall" it looks like a drive-chain, the idea is good.

Here is the image without hydrogen cluttering up the picture. it more closly resembles the symbol i hand-drew.

We could try to synthesise one that is as chemically similar to DMT as possible For example, the "drive-chain" could resemble the "tail" of DMT.

I have never seen any psychoactive compound even remotely resembling that structure.

I've never seen ANY compound resembling that. Not for paint-thinners or for face-paints or glue.

That's the problem.

I think it is fundamental missing shape. Like... a biologically missing chemical. It could be a revolution in life.

Similar to the time that bacteria learnt to degrade wood. Or the time they learned how to use light for energy.

I have seen molecules like this and they have a name. That's one possible isomer of diazaparacyclophane. The benzene rings are not mobile and they also assume a stacked configuration, so the molecule itself wouldn't even resemble the chain drive that you're envisaging. It is a highly strained molecule and therefore rather difficult to make.

The concept of an actual assemblage to make a molecular chain drive is still an interesting proposition for a type of molecule. The archetypal molecule of this class would require the assembly of at least four separate components - a massive challenge to the synthetic chemist if ever there was. These four components would comprise of the chain itself, the two wheels, and an intermediate piece to hold the wheels in place and maintain the tension of the chain.

Molecular assemblages have been know for quite a while now - the rotaxanes were first produced synthetically back in 1967. Given the amount of time, there has now been quite an extensive amount of research on this class of compounds, e.g. Rotaxane-Based Dual Function Mechanophores Exhibiting Reversible and Irreversible Responses

A chain-drive molecular assemblage could therefore display some unexpected properties but to assume that it might be psychoactive is a naive pipe dream. It would be more in the size range of small polypeptides, so there would be a tiny chance that it might be possible to design one that acts on some neurooligopeptide signalling pathway or other, but just bear in mind that the most notorious cyclic polypeptides are the amatoxins found in Death Cap mushrooms.

What this does remind me of is that Trichocereus cacti produce substances called knottins, which - if I'm not mistaken - are cyclic polypeptides with a knotted structure. They have some remarkable pharmacological properties as well as being unusually heat-stable.

If you're really interested, the 'see also' section on the wikipedia has a good selection of relevant pointers, particularly the Mechanically interlocked molecular architecture page, which covers what you were possibly intending to describe. Notably, however, there is no description of a molecular chain drive there - so I'm going to have to dig a little deeper. Thanks for the inspiration!

The people at rotaxane.net might be interested in the idea of a molecular chain-drive; they could do with upgrading their website to https though...

My god

thats a lot more info than I expected! But a very good surprise. Its amazing to see a real chemist.

As for the naive pipedream... yes I am good at those. They occasionally turn out.

I mean it's not naive if I never actually start doing it. Trying to do it would be the naive pipe dream

Rotaxanes seem really interesting and cool and neat structures. Its probably NOT what I had in mind, though?

I'll tell you why. Because DMT in itself is a highly incredible substance, however, if you were to "just look at it" from a mechanical point of view, it does't look very special relative to any other substance.

I think what DMT is doing, is acting like a molecular antenna. So it is "tuning in" to some kinda vibrations from some other realms. I guess that is what the "long tail" of the DMT molecule is. An antenna... specifically tuned to a very important frequency. Or perhaps a frequency range even! It might be that the DMT molecule is easily "tuneable" by the surrounding biological fluids or substances or electric/magnetic fields, or heat even.

So... it isn't just atoms or substances that "can flow up or down a pipe"... but also vibrations and frequencies that can flow up or down a pipe.

My molecular idea was to allow the frequencies to flow around the drive chain... not so much to actually let the atoms themselves rotate like a "real drive chain". Not that it wouldn't be a fascinating or funny idea, which it is.

...

It is kind of like having two people play drums together... or violin perhaps is a better thing. Two frequencies to flow around but playing one song. Two acting as one.

Like I said... unless I became so rich I had money to throw around and make people do whatever whacky projects I like (Elon Musk kinda thing)... its not gonna happen. Definitely a "pipe dream" unless I get to that level of wealth.

DMT interacts with serotonin receptors (and a few others) in the brain (and a few other places) that control sensory gating (and a few other things). The brain is the receiver, the DMT is like changing an electronic component which alters the frequency that the receiver responds to.

You could say that DMT looks like a scooter and that's how come it transports you to other places, but I don't think that's a valid hypothesis either.


Give me a few days and I could design you the general structure of a chain-drive rotaxane, rather than something that just superficially resembles a chain drive, if you like. The resulting assemblage would be too large to interact with the usual neurotransmitter receptors connected with psychoactivity. It might turn out to be an amazing new antibiotic, however.


Phew, then my life hasn't entirely been a naive pipe dream after all - because I virtually never get around to doing anything...

Incidentally, I actually designed a paracyclophane 2C-X analogue over fifteen years ago - but I've never had the facilities to go about attempting its synthesis (fortunately...?)

Seems entirely valid to me! Some kind of hyperdimensional scooter. Maybe with an inbuilt radio-system and a sub-woofer?



You have a huge interest (and talent) in chemistry. Almost feels like you have some kind of "untapped" or "unmet" desire to play around and fool around with this stuff. I'll bet its an interesting story, although for some other time perhaps...

I guess for me I just have got enough of an answer for now. I was just "musing"



What did you design it for?

Because I could. Drawing molecular structures is just another kind of doodling. It's a fundamental way that organic chemists communicate their ideas - a formalised glyph language with infinite meaningful possibilities... (See my Glyph project for the paradoxical nature of this statement!)


And, might I say, it's been really inspiring to discuss these ides with you - there is indeed a benefit to asking ostensibly 'stupid' (or, more fairly, inexperienced) questions like your OP. You've really thrown light on some aspects of my own attitude that can be changed to my - and everyone else's - benefit, and you've helped illuminate some unexpected connections between previously disparate-seeming areas of my interests! You've upgraded me, I upgrade you

I guess it is more than a kind of doodling in the end. Even in a very random and prolific mainstream artist, amoungst the chaos and the mess... are a few gems of passion that show a purpose.

I'll give your glyph project a read.



Honestly I was struck by the level of interest and detail you put in. Feels like a gift for a friend.

Thats all I can say haha. Umm yeah.