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69 ron tek not working well, any help? (pics) Options
 
_Trip_
#21 Posted : 8/2/2022 2:14:25 AM

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Give cielo tek a go as is and I think you'll be surprised at the end result. I wouldn't be worried using the cielo tek about a .1 or even 1% yield change over pH ranges. The process is too efficient and pure*.
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mud1
#22 Posted : 8/2/2022 6:55:28 AM
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_Trip_ wrote:
Give cielo tek a go as is and I think you'll be surprised at the end result. I wouldn't be worried using the cielo tek about a .1 or even 1% yield change over pH ranges. The process is too efficient and pure*.


Thanks for the tips, I plan to, just a few quick questions, is the CIELO tek full spectrum? It looks like you get very pure mesc citrate with it. I think the other alks have their value, so is there a way to extract them as well? Can I just titrate with more acid or is there nothing but mesc in the EA?

Also my biggest containers are exactly 1 liter in size, can I reduce the amount of EA by a bit so that everything fits? I assume worst case is it would require some more pulls, which I wouldn't mind
 
shroombee
#23 Posted : 8/2/2022 7:29:03 AM

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mud1 wrote:
shroombee wrote:
Here is the HCL I used with 69ron tek. Now I'm all-in on CIELO:

Dr. Clark Hydrochloric Acid Drops

Thanks for the link, though that looks a bit too pricey for such a small amount. I might just stick to citrate since the mesc content is the same. Though for reference, since this HCl is liquid unlike the citric acid crystals, do you do a normal wash of acid in the EA instead of waiting for crystallization to happen?

I posted the link for the HCl drops for you to use with the 69ron lime/limonene tek - HCl works better than vinegar. Yes, the product is relatively pricey, but it's food grade and this small amount of 5% HCl (30 ml for $12.95) would probably last for years with 69ron tek. You only need several drops for salting a pull. 30 ml is about 600 drops.

As discussed, we don't think anyone has tried HCl with CIELO yet. I imagine we want to use as little water as possible?
 
Loveall
#24 Posted : 8/2/2022 9:24:52 AM

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shroombee wrote:
mud1 wrote:
shroombee wrote:
Here is the HCL I used with 69ron tek. Now I'm all-in on CIELO:

Dr. Clark Hydrochloric Acid Drops

Thanks for the link, though that looks a bit too pricey for such a small amount. I might just stick to citrate since the mesc content is the same. Though for reference, since this HCl is liquid unlike the citric acid crystals, do you do a normal wash of acid in the EA instead of waiting for crystallization to happen?

I posted the link for the HCl drops for you to use with the 69ron lime/limonene tek - HCl works better than vinegar. Yes, the product is relatively pricey, but it's food grade and this small amount of 5% HCl (30 ml for $12.95) would probably last for years with 69ron tek. You only need several drops for salting a pull. 30 ml is about 600 drops.

As discussed, we don't think anyone has tried HCl with CIELO yet. I imagine we want to use as little water as possible?


Yes, aqueous HCl may not work as a water layer could form. Would be interesting to
rknow what Mindlusion says about the possible reactivity of aqueous HCl and EA.

HCl in EA or HCl in IPA (no water or minimal water) could work very nicely. However, that may be hard to make/obtain.

Very early on I tried 10% sulfuric acid (pH down for aquariums) with CIELO. Xtals did form initially, but eventually a layer formed (water?). That was posted in the first pages of the development thread.

It could be interesting to try to make sulfuric or HCl EA and remove the water layer with brine. That could be an interesting salting source. For example,

- Add pH up (or muriatic acid) to EA lets say 1:10 ratio
- Add 1/3 parts NaCl (to turn the water into brine)
- Shake an let separate. Top layer should be relatively dry EA with some sulfuric acid (I have no idea?). It may salt out a CIELO pull very nicely? Or it could be plain messy with ethanol and acetic acid appearing in equilibrium with sulfuric and ethyl acetate.
- The EA top layer should be a few % watee along with ~1% Sulfuric or ~3% HCl and could salt out CIELO pulls. Ethanol and acetic acid may also form though.

It may work or it may be messy. Adding half a teaspoon of citric acid to the pulls is so convenient and simple though.
πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š Mescaline CIELO TEK πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š Salvinorin Chilled Acetone with IPA and Naphtha re-X TEKπŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š
 
downwardsfromzero
#25 Posted : 8/2/2022 5:46:49 PM

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The main problem I would foresee with aqueous solutions of strong mineral acids in EA is that the extra water increases the likelihood of hydrolysis - reaction of the water with the EA to split it into ethanol and acetic acid.

The ratio of these values for ethyl acetate:
Molar mass 88.106 g·molβˆ’1

Density 0.902 g/cm3
gives a molar volume of about 97.7 mL.mol-1, so 97.7mL of EA will react with about 18mL of water in order to hydrolyse completely.

Perhaps the question would be how much hydrolysis is acceptable - at what point would the crystallisation process begin to be disrupted by the amount of ethanol and/or acetic acid which is formed? It's fairly easy to envision that a small amount of acetate would contribute to goo formation.

The beauty of using citric is that it effectively self-titrates, whereas in the case of sulfuric acid in particular it is necessary to titrate carefully because of the acid's low volatility. HCL would be more forgiving, with the excess acid evaporating off fairly easily. I can still understand the appeal of producing beautiful needles of mesc.sulfate by recrystallisation from water, however Smile


One further idea: the apparent lack of data for mescaline phosphates seems to suggest that phosphoric acid would be an unpromising choice for mescaline titration, although that doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't try. It would have to be borne in mind that the combination of an amine base with a moderate to weak tribasic acid could quite foreseeably lead to widely divergent results with a large sensitivity to reaction conditions.


[EDIT: I see that Loveall did get some kind of a result with phosphoric acid when using acetone. And this sounds a little promising too.]

[EDIT2: We shouldn't forget the potential of mescaline carbonate either.]




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― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
mud1
#26 Posted : 8/2/2022 8:58:08 PM
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Not to derail the convo about using HCl, but I still had some questions about the CIELO tek:

1. Is it full spectrum? It looks like you get very pure mesc citrate with it since it "self-titrates". I think the other alks have their value, so is there a way to extract them as well? Can I just titrate with more acid or is there nothing but mesc in the EA?

2. My biggest containers are exactly 1 liter in size, can I reduce the amount of EA by a bit so that everything fits? I assume worst case is it would require some more pulls, which I wouldn't mind
 
downwardsfromzero
#27 Posted : 8/3/2022 12:05:01 AM

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Analysis has shown the product to be pretty much pure mesc.citrate. This could depend on the cactus used - for instance, I don't know what the results would be when trying this out on a cactus known to contain significant quantities of other alkaloids (peyote springing to mind, except for the issue of conservation).

I suspect you might not get nice crystals if other alkaloids were to co-precipitate.

What other alkaloids would you consider desirable anyhow? DMPEA is a distinct non-starter and most other things seem to be sedative hypnotics if anything.

I you want the antiseptic effects of the phenolic alkaloids or the health effects (intentionally vague...) of the polysaccharides you might be better off with tea or whole cactus.


It should be easy enough to scale the entire process down to half size. IIRC, Loveall and/or shroombee did this for some of the method refinement experiments. At worst, you might want to run two half-size pots at the same time.




β€œThere is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
downwardsfromzero
#28 Posted : 8/3/2022 12:11:59 AM

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Another thing, there's at least a hint here that mescaline acetate may be at least a bit soluble in limonene. Possibly, maybe?




β€œThere is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
mud1
#29 Posted : 8/3/2022 5:16:25 AM
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Thanks for the info, I wasn't too aware of which other alks specifically, but I did hear the full spectrum experience is more mellow, which sounds interesting and at least worth trying. Is there a way to still extract the other alks after CIELO tek?

I have both pachanoi and bridgesii, wthe latter I have heard has notable other alks
 
Loveall
#30 Posted : 8/3/2022 12:32:50 PM

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mud1 wrote:
Thanks for the info, I wasn't too aware of which other alks specifically, but I did hear the full spectrum experience is more mellow, which sounds interesting and at least worth trying. Is there a way to still extract the other alks after CIELO tek?

I have both pachanoi and bridgesii, wthe latter I have heard has notable other alks

Do you know which other alkaloids specifically? Other alkaloids are in trace ammounts as far as we can tell.

From that link:

endlessness wrote:
Other alkaloids in Trichocereus cact (n=50. Source)
Trichocereus bridgesii: Out of 8 samples, 1 found with unquantified 3,4-DMPEA, another found with 0.0025%-0.00025% 3,4-DMPEA, 0.0025%-0.00025% 3-methoxytyramine, 0.0025%-0.00025% tyramine

Trichocereus pachanoi: Out of 36 samples, 1 found with <0.0038% dry 3,4-DMPEA, another found with 0.01% 3-methoxytyramine, another found with 0.0025%-0.00025% 3,4-DMPEA, 0.0025%-0.00025% 3-methoxytyramine, traces tyramine, traces hordenine, traces 3,5-dimethoxy-4-hydroxyphenylethylamine, traces 3,4-dimethoxy-5-hydroxyphenylethylamine, traces anhalonidine, another found with unidentified minor compounds, another found with minor peaks,

Trichocereus peruvianus: Out of 6 samples, 1 found with unquantified 3,4-DMPEA, another found with Primary and secondary amines ++, free phenolics +, triterpenes/steroids +, +catechins +, another found with no mescaline but with 0.005% - 0.0005% Tyramine, 0.0005 - 0.00005%, 0.0005 - 0.00005% 2 unknown compounds, traces 3-methoxytyramine

I would gues 3,4-DMPEA comes through the CIELO tek (based on its structure). However, there was no separate peak for it, either because it did not cone through or because the small ammount was not enough to make a peak.

I do not know hot to extract the other alkaloids. They are in such small ammounts that unless they are very potent it could be a wasted effort.

The reports on full spectrum stuff could be explained without trace alkaloids being important, as the experience is subjective and having more nausea/purging can change the experience.
πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š Mescaline CIELO TEK πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š Salvinorin Chilled Acetone with IPA and Naphtha re-X TEKπŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š
 
mud1
#31 Posted : 8/3/2022 6:17:07 PM
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Yeah tbh I don't know *what* the other alks are or how present they are, but since I ended up with a black goo, I assumed a lot of that was non-mescaline alks.

I think it's also worth considering stuff like the entourage effect, like when considering THC and CBD, when taking either one, a tiny amount of the other seems to make the effects much more powerful. Of course I admit I don't have any solid scientific evidence backing this up, but figured it might be a possibility for cacti.

I recall Stamets also mentioned the entourage effect in consuming whole mushroom vs pure psilocybin as well.
 
Loveall
#32 Posted : 8/3/2022 7:04:00 PM

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mud1 wrote:
Yeah tbh I don't know *what* the other alks are or how present they are, but since I ended up with a black goo, I assumed a lot of that was non-mescaline alks.

I think it's also worth considering stuff like the entourage effect, like when considering THC and CBD, when taking either one, a tiny amount of the other seems to make the effects much more powerful. Of course I admit I don't have any solid scientific evidence backing this up, but figured it might be a possibility for cacti.

I recall Stamets also mentioned the entourage effect in consuming whole mushroom vs pure psilocybin as well.


Im pretty sure the black goo has non alkaloids. Probably a bunch of chlorophyll amomg other things. Chlorophyll is very good for you by the way (health food).

The entorauge effect could be a thing, IDK. If it is, a pure extraction would tend to erase it. I think it is very difficult to extract the entorage alks only and leave the rest of the plant behind. That is beyond what I can answer or would even try to work on, way too complex for my limimitations.

However, we can offer ways to extract very pure mescaline.
πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š Mescaline CIELO TEK πŸ’šπŸŒ΅πŸ’š
πŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š Salvinorin Chilled Acetone with IPA and Naphtha re-X TEKπŸ’šπŸƒπŸ’š
 
reDeMpTion
#33 Posted : 8/6/2022 11:02:24 AM
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I got black goo on the first pull of my last 69ron extract. There are definitely alkaloids in it. It's extremely bitter, and I've found it to be stimulating and euphoric even in very small doses. I would actually love to know what all is in there, but it's beyond my knowledge and equipment I have access to to find out.

I was gifted some amazingly beautiful mescaline sulfate crystals years back. The experience was great eating them, but I like what comes out of the 69ron tek better. I don't do the MEK wash at the end. I think the entourage effect is absolutely a thing with cactus, there's magic in the secondary compounds with cactus. I don't know what they are but they add effects I really like to the experience.

I will add later pulls on the same extraction that yielded black goo came out looking lighter and more crystalline each time. I plan on mixing them all together in vinegar and evaporating again for more consistency, but the black goo section is more bitter and stimulating than what has come out of later pulls...much more bitter than the pure mescaline sulfate crystals I tried.
 
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