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Open questions in psychedelic chemistry.. What to test? Options
 
endlessness
#1 Posted : 6/10/2022 5:10:23 PM

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What are some of the open questions we have in entheogenic/psychedelic chemistry? What are some species that need more analysis, or variables that need to be compared ?

All suggestions welcome, it's important to know what you all are interested in, to know where to focus some of the research i'm gonna be doing and sharing.
 

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Tomtegubbe
#2 Posted : 6/10/2022 5:30:29 PM

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I think there is some ambiguity about the chemical profile of morning glory seeds (also hbwr and ololiuqi). I've done naphta washes that seem to reduce or remove the nausea, but I haven't found information on what is actually happening there. The seeds I have should be untreated.

Also, what is the rate of LSA / LSH in the seeds and under which conditions LSH converts to LSA or LSA to LSH, if any.
My preferred method:
Very easy pharmahuasca recipe

My preferred introductory article:
Just a Wee Bit More About DMT, by Nick Sand
 
Syragote
#3 Posted : 6/10/2022 5:32:31 PM

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1. Is LSH active? If so, does it produce effects that are distinct from LSA? Lots of noise and speculation around this one for many years now, but as far as I know it has never soundly been put to bed.

It's very unstable, but has supposedly been detected in the blood of a subject who consumed HBWR, so it isn't off the table. All somebody needs to do is try a pure sample of it and compare the effects to a pure sample of LSA.

2. What are the other active compounds in the San Pedro cactus (and other psychedelic cacti)? Quoting what I posted here recently:

Gnosticllama33 wrote:
Something I've noticed is that there's another psychedelic in San Pedro cactus that kicks in about an hour before the mescaline.

The first time I took it, I thought the 2 hour lift-off time was an overestimation, because a pleasant trip began at the hour mark - a very warm and light intoxication, perceptual distortions/alterations with a strange and distinct flavour, made me energetic and sociable like a low dose of MDMA.

When the mescaline kicked in an hour later, the experience was very different and not at all enjoyable for me.

I'd love to try the compound that's responsible for that initial phase by itself, but I haven't had the bother to figure out which one it is. I liked it so much that I thought it'd become my new drug of choice. It was such a gentle ride - the kind of thing you could take before going to work and it'd be no problem.

I suspected it might be lophophine, but I'm not sure. Whatever it is, it's wonderful stuff.
 
Syragote
#4 Posted : 6/10/2022 5:39:33 PM

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Tomtegubbe wrote:
I think there is some ambiguity about the chemical profile of morning glory seeds (also hbwr and ololiuqi). I've done naphta washes that seem to reduce or remove the nausea, but I haven't found information on what is actually happening there. The seeds I have should be untreated.

Also, what is the rate of LSA / LSH in the seeds and under which conditions LSH converts to LSA or LSA to LSH, if any.

You beat me to it. There is some data on the ratio of LSA:LSH in the seeds, I don't remember which study it's from now, but I've attached the chart (it's labelled LAH here).

Bear in mind the plants used probably weren't cultivated/stored/analysed with any technique towards maximising or preserving the LSH content, so the values could be a lot higher.
Syragote attached the following image(s):
42003_2021_2870_Tab1_HTML.png (266kb) downloaded 250 time(s).
 
downwardsfromzero
#5 Posted : 6/10/2022 11:55:17 PM

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Something that's bugged me for a time is various claims in some low-grade journals of detecting alkaloids in nutmeg (Myristica fragrans) that were never backed up with an actual analysis. It would be fantastic if you were able to look into that one.

A related matter is the - as far as I know - unsubstantiated but plausible claim that 5-MeO-DMT occurs in mace arils (also from Myristica fragrans) when they are fresh and that this alkaloid is lost through sun-drying. 'Unfortunately', this latter project could involve some international travel to beautiful tropical islands.

There are probably a few more things I could think of which I'll add to this thread as they come to me.
[EDIT: Of course, there's the claims of α-methylmescaline (TMA) in Trichocereus terscheckii and 4-methoxyamphetamine in Browningia candelila that really ought to be checked out.]




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
roninsina
#6 Posted : 6/12/2022 3:24:33 PM

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Another great thread, endlessness!

You can add me on as very interested in the plants mentioned already, but I would add a couple more. I’d love to know more about the apparent inconsistency of DMT content in desmanthus illinoensis, whether the variability is caused by genetics, maturity of the plant, conditions at harvest, etc. (I have a few dozen grams of DIRB on hand and could send it or a methanol extraction to you, if you’re interested).

The second plant would be passiflora incarnata (or other passiflora), and a confirmation/explanation for its apparent RIMA properties.

Keep up the excellent work Thumbs up
"We dance round in a ring and suppose,
while the secret sits in the middle and knows." Robert Frost

 
Tomtegubbe
#7 Posted : 6/12/2022 5:00:55 PM

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It would be interesting to know would it be possible to make passioflorahuasca if you make an extract of the plant and if it could be safe to do so.
My preferred method:
Very easy pharmahuasca recipe

My preferred introductory article:
Just a Wee Bit More About DMT, by Nick Sand
 
endlessness
#8 Posted : 6/12/2022 5:40:15 PM

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Tomtegubbe wrote:
I think there is some ambiguity about the chemical profile of morning glory seeds (also hbwr and ololiuqi). I've done naphta washes that seem to reduce or remove the nausea, but I haven't found information on what is actually happening there. The seeds I have should be untreated.

Also, what is the rate of LSA / LSH in the seeds and under which conditions LSH converts to LSA or LSA to LSH, if any.


That sounds doable. Do you grow any of them yourself? What are the more popular suppliers I should test from, whether it is seeds or live plants?


Syragote wrote:
1. Is LSH active? If so, does it produce effects that are distinct from LSA? Lots of noise and speculation around this one for many years now, but as far as I know it has never soundly been put to bed.

It's very unstable, but has supposedly been detected in the blood of a subject who consumed HBWR, so it isn't off the table. All somebody needs to do is try a pure sample of it and compare the effects to a pure sample of LSA.

2. What are the other active compounds in the San Pedro cactus (and other psychedelic cacti)? Quoting what I posted here recently:

Gnosticllama33 wrote:
Something I've noticed is that there's another psychedelic in San Pedro cactus that kicks in about an hour before the mescaline.

The first time I took it, I thought the 2 hour lift-off time was an overestimation, because a pleasant trip began at the hour mark - a very warm and light intoxication, perceptual distortions/alterations with a strange and distinct flavour, made me energetic and sociable like a low dose of MDMA.

When the mescaline kicked in an hour later, the experience was very different and not at all enjoyable for me.

I'd love to try the compound that's responsible for that initial phase by itself, but I haven't had the bother to figure out which one it is. I liked it so much that I thought it'd become my new drug of choice. It was such a gentle ride - the kind of thing you could take before going to work and it'd be no problem.

I suspected it might be lophophine, but I'm not sure. Whatever it is, it's wonderful stuff.


Testing whether something or other is psychoactive is for the moment beyond our scope. We are doing chemical analysis of samples, so we can test what compounds samples have but not whether it is psychoactive or not.

As for the San Pedro cactus, there are many analysis done so far, and show other alkaloids but mostly only in trace amounts.. Most is summed up here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...p;m=1150575#post1150575

Do you have the cactus that supposedly gives a different trip to pure mescaline or to other cact? We can get it tested, specially if you have two samples from different cact that supposedly have very different effects. If alkaloid content ends up being the same, then self-suggestion or other set and setting aspects could be the explanation.

Ive had even pure synthetic mescaline hit way quicker than 2 hours, ive had it within the hour or less (ive also had it hit only after 12 hours when using enteric coated capsules lol but thats a whole other story), and come in different waves, so it isn´t necessarily a different substance. Or your own body could be making different metabolites at different rates which could affect the experience (that´s just a hypothesis, not saying its happening for sure).

downwardsfromzero wrote:
Something that's bugged me for a time is various claims in some low-grade journals of detecting alkaloids in nutmeg (Myristica fragrans) that were never backed up with an actual analysis. It would be fantastic if you were able to look into that one.

A related matter is the - as far as I know - unsubstantiated but plausible claim that 5-MeO-DMT occurs in mace arils (also from Myristica fragrans) when they are fresh and that this alkaloid is lost through sun-drying. 'Unfortunately', this latter project could involve some international travel to beautiful tropical islands.

There are probably a few more things I could think of which I'll add to this thread as they come to me.
[EDIT: Of course, there's the claims of α-methylmescaline (TMA) in Trichocereus terscheckii and 4-methoxyamphetamine in Browningia candelila that really ought to be checked out.]


What alkaloids were supposedly detected in nutmeg, do you have some papers that talk about it?

And yeah regarding fresh nutmeg, I wouldn´t know how to get it.. If someone did, we could get it tested

roninsina wrote:
Another great thread, endlessness!

You can add me on as very interested in the plants mentioned already, but I would add a couple more. I’d love to know more about the apparent inconsistency of DMT content in desmanthus illinoensis, whether the variability is caused by genetics, maturity of the plant, conditions at harvest, etc. (I have a few dozen grams of DIRB on hand and could send it or a methanol extraction to you, if you’re interested).

The second plant would be passiflora incarnata (or other passiflora), and a confirmation/explanation for its apparent RIMA properties.

Keep up the excellent work Thumbs up


What parts of passiflora are supposedly used? Does it have to be fresh? Can anyone get me the samples and/or direct me to popular suppliers?

Also, Im very interested in the desmanthus illinoensis, we should definitely get that tested. Is your DIRB only the same batch? Could you get different samples that compare some variable (like you mentioned with age, harvest conditons etc)?


Tomtegubbe wrote:
It would be interesting to know would it be possible to make passioflorahuasca if you make an extract of the plant and if it could be safe to do so.


As mentioned above, if people can get me different samples and direct me to suppliers, that would be great. Specially if we can compare different batches, conditions of growth/harvest, etc, that would make us learn more.

 
downwardsfromzero
#9 Posted : 6/13/2022 7:29:44 PM

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endlessness wrote:
What alkaloids were supposedly detected in nutmeg, do you have some papers that talk about it?

And yeah regarding fresh nutmeg, I wouldn´t know how to get it.. If someone did, we could get it tested
That's the thing, they never bothered to begin to find out what the presumed alkaloids were, it was always reported on the basis of a positive Dragendorff's test. Some tests of the putative alkaloidal fraction revealed analgesic properties in rodents, fwiw.

I may be able to track down a connection to a nutmeg farmer. I do have some mace material from the source I'm thinking of although it's a few years old now and I think it will have been sun dried. I would still say it's worth a look analytically, but its high content of both essential and fixed oils naturally makes analysis a little more tricky. We wouldn't want to break any fragile tryptamines in the preliminary work up.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
ShamanisticVibes
#10 Posted : 6/14/2022 1:11:50 AM
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Dictyonema huaorani rumors have been floating around communities since at least 2016. I think finding a specimen would be the most difficult part, but I'd be a liar if I said that the thought of this entity floating around somewhere on the planet didn't excite me Big grin


edit: also found a more recent article that mentions some icelandic lichens that may be of interest as well
https://www.zamnesia.com...lucinogenic-lichens-n660
May we continue to be blessed
 
endlessness
#11 Posted : 6/21/2022 8:31:39 PM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
That's the thing, they never bothered to begin to find out what the presumed alkaloids were, it was always reported on the basis of a positive Dragendorff's test. Some tests of the putative alkaloidal fraction revealed analgesic properties in rodents, fwiw.

I may be able to track down a connection to a nutmeg farmer. I do have some mace material from the source I'm thinking of although it's a few years old now and I think it will have been sun dried. I would still say it's worth a look analytically, but its high content of both essential and fixed oils naturally makes analysis a little more tricky. We wouldn't want to break any fragile tryptamines in the preliminary work up.


Definitely let me know if you can source the plant material so we can test it. In that case it would be interesting to research what molecules we can be dealing with, and work out a tailored extraction and analytical methodology

ShamanisticVibes wrote:
Dictyonema huaorani rumors have been floating around communities since at least 2016. I think finding a specimen would be the most difficult part, but I'd be a liar if I said that the thought of this entity floating around somewhere on the planet didn't excite me Big grin


edit: also found a more recent article that mentions some icelandic lichens that may be of interest as well
https://www.zamnesia.com...ucinogenic-lichens-n660


I would love to test any of those lichens but unfortunately I do not have the budget nor time to go on expeditions to try and find these species. If anybody can, I'd be glad to test them.
 
roninsina
#12 Posted : 7/11/2022 10:38:46 AM

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I have easier access to wild passiflora (late summer/early fall) but d illinoensis is quite a bit more time consuming, and this year isn’t a good time for me. I’m assuming we’ll both still be around and interested in these topics in a couple years when I should have more abundant disposable time. I’ll message you about the passiflora when I’ve collected it and you can give me some prep instructions for it and the d illinoensis, if you like. The DIRB sample is from a single stand in late summer, after seeding out.
"We dance round in a ring and suppose,
while the secret sits in the middle and knows." Robert Frost

 
8-Serpent-Wind
#13 Posted : 7/16/2022 11:11:32 PM

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I have many questions and some samples that can be donated to the exploration of said questions.

I am curious about [Scopulicola X grandiflorus] X scopulicola, [Scopulicola X grandiflorus] X bridgesii and other similar hybrids including even [Scopulicola X grandiflorus] X [Scopulicola X grandiflorus] F2.

I am curious about the potential chemical content of young leaves of various Ipomoea and allies as well as that of their seeds.
I am curious as to if the chemistry of Ipomoea muricata obtained as Kaladana is distinct from the chemistry of Impomoea muricata obtained as Clove bean. I am also curious about the chemistry of Ipomoea nil also obtained as Kaladana.
I am also curious about the chemistry of Ipomoea "Kruger Park"

I am also interested in the chemistry of Ipomoea leptophylla, particularly the young leaves of older plants. In fact the chemistry of the young tender leaves of many Morning Glory allies is likely worth looking at.

I suspect that in cactus crosses that the enzyme sets for the varieties and or landraces combine in specific ways where for example a bridgesii with a high mescaline content when crossed with a peruvianus with a medium mescaline content and a high isoquinoline content (cycled PEAs) may potentially cross to produce an F1 with an even higher isoquinoline content where the hybrid enzyme pathway uses mescaline end product of one pathway as an intermediate or precursor in the peruvianus with the isoquinoline pathway, etc. I believe that different crosses produce different results in terms of this and that both positive and negative sense heterosis for the pathways and their products should occur and with enough observations should be predictable and able to be exploited in a specific and deliberate way. To make such observations requires a lot of data collection from specific plants and their offspring. Would a plant that produces an abundance of tyramine and a plant that produces a medium amount of mescaline be capable of producing offspring with an abundance of mescaline? What about the reverse?

There are of course numerous non-cacti equivalents to the concepts above. Papaver and Capsicum both come to mind.

And of course are there amphetamines in T. terscheckii and hybrids of it and other cacti?
I only have two small T. terscheckii but am more than willing to donate them to the cause.
 
endlessness
#14 Posted : 7/17/2022 7:36:55 AM

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Excellent! Im travelling tomorrow to do festival drug checking, will be back beggining/mid august and then we start gathering these samples to test!
 
skelly0311
#15 Posted : 7/17/2022 9:52:13 PM
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I recently did an extraction with very potent bridge monstrous(when ingested as tea) and got low yields. Posted about it here https://www.dmt-nexus.me...px?g=posts&t=99753. I'd be interested in getting the monstrous assayed to see if it contains any psychoactive molecules other than mescaline. More than happy to send a pup out.
 
benzyme
#16 Posted : 7/18/2022 1:44:19 AM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
endlessness wrote:
What alkaloids were supposedly detected in nutmeg, do you have some papers that talk about it?

And yeah regarding fresh nutmeg, I wouldn´t know how to get it.. If someone did, we could get it tested
That's the thing, they never bothered to begin to find out what the presumed alkaloids were, it was always reported on the basis of a positive Dragendorff's test. Some tests of the putative alkaloidal fraction revealed analgesic properties in rodents, fwiw.

I may be able to track down a connection to a nutmeg farmer. I do have some mace material from the source I'm thinking of although it's a few years old now and I think it will have been sun dried. I would still say it's worth a look analytically, but its high content of both essential and fixed oils naturally makes analysis a little more tricky. We wouldn't want to break any fragile tryptamines in the preliminary work up.


AFAIK, nutmeg has no alkaloids (and no tryptamines, they require an indole base), as there are no amine groups. The primary active compound is myristicin, and to a lesser extent, elemicin.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
benzyme
#17 Posted : 7/18/2022 1:50:00 AM

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endlessness wrote:
downwardsfromzero wrote:
That's the thing, they never bothered to begin to find out what the presumed alkaloids were, it was always reported on the basis of a positive Dragendorff's test. Some tests of the putative alkaloidal fraction revealed analgesic properties in rodents, fwiw.

I may be able to track down a connection to a nutmeg farmer. I do have some mace material from the source I'm thinking of although it's a few years old now and I think it will have been sun dried. I would still say it's worth a look analytically, but its high content of both essential and fixed oils naturally makes analysis a little more tricky. We wouldn't want to break any fragile tryptamines in the preliminary work up.


Definitely let me know if you can source the plant material so we can test it. In that case it would be interesting to research what molecules we can be dealing with, and work out a tailored extraction and analytical methodology

ShamanisticVibes wrote:
Dictyonema huaorani rumors have been floating around communities since at least 2016. I think finding a specimen would be the most difficult part, but I'd be a liar if I said that the thought of this entity floating around somewhere on the planet didn't excite me Big grin


edit: also found a more recent article that mentions some icelandic lichens that may be of interest as well
https://www.zamnesia.com...ucinogenic-lichens-n660


I would love to test any of those lichens but unfortunately I do not have the budget nor time to go on expeditions to try and find these species. If anybody can, I'd be glad to test them.


Endless, I'd love to collab at some point, to verify/compare data. I'm in a much more favorable state of mind than a decade ago, and have fully embraced the focus of data reprodcibility. That is what makes the science so robust, and manifests facts. What you and your peers do is fantastic, and I'd love to contribute.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
Woolmer
#18 Posted : 7/18/2022 12:15:50 PM

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I would love to see further analysis of the succulents tested in Some Other Succulents by Trout and Friends. I have never read further reports of confirmed tryptamines in those succulents.

Most of them are local to my country and I could send samples.
 
dragonrider
#19 Posted : 7/18/2022 4:36:45 PM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
endlessness wrote:
What alkaloids were supposedly detected in nutmeg, do you have some papers that talk about it?

And yeah regarding fresh nutmeg, I wouldn´t know how to get it.. If someone did, we could get it tested
That's the thing, they never bothered to begin to find out what the presumed alkaloids were, it was always reported on the basis of a positive Dragendorff's test. Some tests of the putative alkaloidal fraction revealed analgesic properties in rodents, fwiw.

I may be able to track down a connection to a nutmeg farmer. I do have some mace material from the source I'm thinking of although it's a few years old now and I think it will have been sun dried. I would still say it's worth a look analytically, but its high content of both essential and fixed oils naturally makes analysis a little more tricky. We wouldn't want to break any fragile tryptamines in the preliminary work up.

Could it be that there are not just alkaloïds but maybe some psycho-active terpenes in nutmeg?
We always focus on alkaloïds, but nutmeg must be packed with terpenes as well.
 
8-Serpent-Wind
#20 Posted : 7/18/2022 5:17:36 PM

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On that note I also wonder if In-Vivo amination can potentially turn certain aromatic molecules into alkaloids or rather Novel-Amino-Acids. I know this has been explored a bit in the past but I am unsure if anything conclusive is known regarding it.

The so called psychedelic or aromatic amphetamines relate to this topic.
 
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