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Heavy on the Harmalas, light on the spice. Options
 
murklan
#1 Posted : 5/18/2022 11:56:45 PM

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I'm curious on others experiences of more harmalas-oriented journeys with DMT.

I've been quite regularly been combining self extracted harmalas from Rue together with vaporized DMT for 2+ years. Only recently I've been making decoctions from light and dark roasted seeds. That is a nice change, but I can't really put my finger on how it's different... Anyhow, thats not what I want to write about.

Recently I've been trying out taking higher doses of extracted harmine / harmaline then before. I've tried not to get nauseous (I don't have a bathroom indoors) and therefore not taken to much. Max 50mg sublingual and ~230 mg oral. But since I rarely feel the slightest nausea and never been 'high' on harmalas alone, I'm now trying to increase the doses a bit.

The last two times I've orally taken 150 mg harmine hcl (extracted and separated of unknown purity) and 125 mg harmine/harmaline hcl mix (extracted and and of unknown purity). I mix them with a bit of water and drink.
A take this around 2,5 h after a meal. And after another 2,5 h I can slowly start feeling a slight buzz in my body and a bit more 'stimulated'. But not much and it could go unnoticed if I'm not observant.

I've then vaporized DMT in doses between 15 - 35 mg, repeatedly over some hours. The first time I was quite surprised of how different it was. Not much visual activity, not much anything... but a very deep sense of dreaming. To be 'gone'. Not as in a blackout, more like a mind-rest. In the notes that I took I wrote mostly about the dreamy feeling, not visions or reflections of the usual stuff.

I've also noticed that these two last times I use less DMT. One inhalation of 15-25 mg puts me in that state for around 1h. Proper MAOI'd I guess. I've then repeated the DMT 2 more times for a total journey of ~4h.

I've also noticed that my body keeps really still during this. I mean more so then when I'm sleeping or resting. Limbs can hurt a bit or be a bit numb from reduced blood flow I guess.

I find it interesting, but not very psychedelic. At least not in the way I usually think. Feels really far from a pure DMT journey, but also quite different from trips with lower amount of Harmalas.

Is this something that resonates with someone else?
 

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igorcarajo
#2 Posted : 5/20/2022 2:56:35 AM
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So after you vaporize the spice are you “gone” or are you still in your body, able to look at things, move, etc?
 
murklan
#3 Posted : 5/20/2022 8:26:29 AM

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igorcarajo wrote:
So after you vaporize the spice are you “gone” or are you still in your body, able to look at things, move, etc?


Well it's not like 'gone' in a breakthrough sense. It's more like falling into light sleep, perhaps like when you awake at first in the morning a day where you don't have to get up. Beeing in and out of sleep and dreams. Nice but not what I'm use to with DMT. I might also add that I've been drinking a big cup of herbal tea with common heather (Calluna vulgaris) before. If that might do something.
 
CosmicRiver
#4 Posted : 5/22/2022 6:44:11 AM

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murklan wrote:
I find it interesting, but not very psychedelic. At least not in the way I usually think. Feels really far from a pure DMT journey, but also quite different from trips with lower amount of Harmalas.

Is this something that resonates with someone else?


Yes. I've had several experiences with changa, using different ratios of MAOIs (from Caapi and Rue) to DMT.

While on lower doses of MAOIs I didn't feel much difference, on higher doses their effects seemed to inhibit the action of the DMT. I agree with you on them having a dream-like quality. I did get some visual effects, i.e. altered sense of depth, loss of balance, vibrating objects and tracers. But if I focused on something different, trying to get up and walking to a different room for example, I was able to snap out of it within seconds.

A friend of mine used to increase the amount of MAOIs in their changa blend in order to have "lighter" and more manageable experiences.

It would be interesting to know if this is true for other people as well and to understand why it happens.
 
Jees
#5 Posted : 5/22/2022 3:43:59 PM

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I too have a sense of going 'offline' with this kind of use. Suddenly a lot of time has passed. With 150mg unseparated rue HCL there is no nausea whatsoever (and often combined with 100mg deemz fumarates) is a nice base. All is super benign, no fireworks, and then having the GVG ready with 15 to 20 mg freebase to hit now and then, never fireworks, a tad of 'visual clearing of the room effect', a tiny bit of pastel colour tendency, that's all. No immediate effects of hitting that 15 - 20 mg, but then that dream-state follows and hours go by like minutes. What happened? I don't know, I wasn't sleeping for sure, my mind was not empty too, but it feels like anything that did pass my mind had no handle on me, I lived without being chackled to my mind, it feels like a trance, that is the best I can come up with, a very healing trance, an enormous bliss afterglow lasting to the end of the next day. It feels sooo good.

I feel there's a ton of therapeutic value in this kind of use.
There is no expectation, no fear, no messages, no contacts, just a lot of nothing actually, a release of 'life as we know it' , a soul vacancy, a state of near apathetic bliss, but something seems to re-charge as if I was on a sunny white beach island for a month. A reset.

It is possible to be creative though because one is not neck deep. With this trypta wet chest situation a healing purge is very possible, deep ones, of the quality of ayahuasca purge, but since the lack of tannines a little self promotion might be needed at first after which the healing purge takes over from there.

Total control and no devastation comes to mind. A sense of being safe troughout, carried, protected, a womb feeling, no surprises, this setting offers a blanket we're often missing in 'real life'.

The molecules are so versatile, change dose/ROA and a different experience follows.
 
Jees
#6 Posted : 5/22/2022 5:47:46 PM

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Hi ava69,
I've interest in the presented HPBCD ROA, will look into it, thanks for sharing much info about it!
I suppose your dose wasn't exactly "Heavy on the Harmalas, light on the spice." Pleased
 
Espurrr
#7 Posted : 5/22/2022 7:08:35 PM




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i read your posts ava69, although very interesting, specially that you mentioned

Quote:
Dennis Mckenna Ph.D:

Thus, tetrahydroharmine may prolong the half-life of DMT by blocking it's intraneuronal uptake, and hence, its inactivation by MAO, localized in mitochondria within the neuron.


which would shed some light on a couple of things

but i wouldn't consider 30mg sublingual ~ 180mg oral equivalent of harmine a heavy dose of harmalas... and would like to know why you are taking these amounts after a meal, or in other words have you tried a high dose of harmalas while fasted? one of the most significant experiences ive had was on harmalas extracted from syrian rue, about 400mg or so and you could say it was relatively pure having been based twice and then crystalized with salt and no dmt
 
downwardsfromzero
#8 Posted : 5/22/2022 9:51:13 PM

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Indeed, Espurrr. A heavy dose of 50/50 light roast + dark roast rue tea can be deeply mystical, no DMT necessary. This was exactly the case for me too. The fact that it happened partly by accident helped as it eliminated the trepidation that volitional use of a larger-than-ever-before amount may otherwise have induced. There are some things that happen with high dose harmalas that won't be seen by most people if they're aiming solely for MAO inhibition.

CosmicRiver wrote:
While on lower doses of MAOIs I didn't feel much difference, on higher doses their effects seemed to inhibit the action of the DMT.
With this observation, plus the clear subjective effects of higher doses of harmalas, especially perhaps harmaline, it seems there's an affinity at the serotonin receptors but with a lower level of intrinsic activity compared to DMT. Thus the harmalas get in the way of DMT and prevent it from 'hitting the button'. The harmalas are sat in that 5HT slot and don't press the button nearly as hard - another reason why it takes a substantial dose for those effects to become noticeable.

The harmalas will be toning down the reactivity of the serotonergic system through another mechanism as well. They have something of a polyvalent activity profile. (Apols for lack of precise detail, I want to go to bed!)




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
murklan
#9 Posted : 5/23/2022 12:34:17 AM

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CosmicRiver wrote:

While on lower doses of MAOIs I didn't feel much difference, on higher doses their effects seemed to inhibit the action of the DMT.


Yes, it's my feeling to. I've also read only on one place (a Reddit post that I can't find now) that the harmalas are somewhat blocking the DMT from the receptors. What you mostly read is that the only lengthen the DMT experience due to their MAOI function.

downwardsfromzero wrote:
There are some things that happen with high dose harmalas that won't be seen by most people if they're aiming solely for MAO inhibition.


Exactly. I'm not sure what to call the mind-state thou.. (not psychedelic) But I think Jees comes close with the description in this thread.

downwardsfromzero wrote:
With this observation, plus the clear subjective effects of higher doses of harmalas, especially perhaps harmaline, it seems there's an affinity at the serotonin receptors but with a lower level of intrinsic activity compared to DMT. Thus the harmalas get in the way of DMT and prevent it from 'hitting the button'. The harmalas are sat in that 5HT slot and don't press the button nearly as hard - another reason why it takes a substantial dose for those effects to become noticeable.

The harmalas will be toning down the reactivity of the serotonergic system through another mechanism as well. They have something of a polyvalent activity profile. (Apols for lack of precise detail, I want to go to bed!)


Yes! I would love to hear more about that! like I wrote above, I've only read that one before and that was just a short note.

Jees wrote:
I too have a sense of going 'offline' with this kind of use. Suddenly a lot of time has passed. With 150mg unseparated rue HCL there is no nausea whatsoever (and often combined with 100mg deemz fumarates) is a nice base. All is super benign, no fireworks, and then having the GVG ready with 15 to 20 mg freebase to hit now and then, never fireworks, a tad of 'visual clearing of the room effect', a tiny bit of pastel colour tendency, that's all. No immediate effects of hitting that 15 - 20 mg, but then that dream-state follows and hours go by like minutes. What happened? I don't know, I wasn't sleeping for sure, my mind was not empty too, but it feels like anything that did pass my mind had no handle on me, I lived without being chackled to my mind, it feels like a trance, that is the best I can come up with, a very healing trance, an enormous bliss afterglow lasting to the end of the next day. It feels sooo good.


Great to read, you put it into words really well! I also get to a start base, but not by DMT fumarates (I've made fumarates and tried a few times but I didn't made enough to find a good amount for me). And then a few 15-25 hits with the GVG over the hours. It's really a peculiar state of mind/no mind. I've not had the blissful afterglow, but a softness and a gentle feeling. But I've also been tired due to the late night activities and few hours of sleep.

Jees wrote:
I feel there's a ton of therapeutic value in this kind of use.
There is no expectation, no fear, no messages, no contacts, just a lot of nothing actually, a release of 'life as we know it' , a soul vacancy, a state of near apathetic bliss, but something seems to re-charge as if I was on a sunny white beach island for a month. A reset.


Yes... I wonder. have you heard something about these states being used in some traditions somewhere, or in a therapeutic/healing setting? Curious of how others have done it. Music, no music, sounds, smells, settings, preparation and time after.

ava69 wrote:
Murklan, how has your synthesis of THH gone so far? have not heard from you for weeks on it...hope you get to make it one day.


Thank you for asking!
Actually this last 'harmala heavy' night I also took ~35 mg sublingual of the THH I've made Smile
I used magnesium but have not tried the phosphoric acid separation that downwardsfromzero
suggested (here). What I did was to dissolve the THH from the reduction in ethanol, filtering out some white grains (magnesium?) and evaporating. Getting a light tan powder. But it's probably not totally clean THH. But maybe good enough for me to try.
I would love to take 400ml orally as you suggest but I need to extract and separate more harmalilne first. But now I've bought 1 kg of rue so... Smile
 
CosmicRiver
#10 Posted : 5/23/2022 12:29:14 PM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
CosmicRiver wrote:
While on lower doses of MAOIs I didn't feel much difference, on higher doses their effects seemed to inhibit the action of the DMT.
With this observation, plus the clear subjective effects of higher doses of harmalas, especially perhaps harmaline, it seems there's an affinity at the serotonin receptors but with a lower level of intrinsic activity compared to DMT. Thus the harmalas get in the way of DMT and prevent it from 'hitting the button'. The harmalas are sat in that 5HT slot and don't press the button nearly as hard - another reason why it takes a substantial dose for those effects to become noticeable.

The harmalas will be toning down the reactivity of the serotonergic system through another mechanism as well. They have something of a polyvalent activity profile. (Apols for lack of precise detail, I want to go to bed!)


I'd love to hear more about it, too!

And I'd like to add something I found today. It could be another possible mechanism involved.

Quote:
While the other neurotransmitters may use additional metabolic pathways, serotonin is fairly dependent on the activity of MAO for its deactivation. Thus, when MAO is inhibited [by harmala alkaloids], levels of serotonin in the brain begin to increase as its production continues unabated.

Reference: Callaway, J.C., 2006. Phytochemistry and Neuropharmacology of Ayahuasca. In Metzner, R. (Ed.) Sacred Vine of Spirits: Ayahuasca

The serotonin in the extracellular space would then compete with DMT for binding at post-synaptic receptors.

Clarification edit: even if MAOs are located within the cell, they affect the concentration of extracellular serotonin by influencing the amount of serotonin released by synaptic vesicles.
 
Jees
#11 Posted : 5/23/2022 3:12:31 PM

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ava69 wrote:
...Thank you kindly Jees, you know I have the highest respect for all your work and posts over all these years, keep up the good work yourself, I always read all your informative and wise posts...
Do I really deserve that much? Rolling eyes
See PM.
Wink
 
downwardsfromzero
#12 Posted : 5/23/2022 9:12:50 PM

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VosmicRiver wrote:
And I'd like to add something I found today. It could be another possible mechanism involved.

Quote:

While the other neurotransmitters may use additional metabolic pathways, serotonin is fairly dependent on the activity of MAO for its deactivation. Thus, when MAO is inhibited [by harmala alkaloids], levels of serotonin in the brain begin to increase as its production continues unabated.


Reference: Callaway, J.C., 2006. Phytochemistry and Neuropharmacology of Ayahuasca. In Metzner, R. (Ed.) Sacred Vine of Spirits: Ayahuasca

The serotonin in the extracellular space would then compete with DMT for binding at post-synaptic receptors.

Clarification edit: even if MAOs are located within the cell, they affect the concentration of extracellular serotonin by influencing the amount of serotonin released by synaptic vesicles.
That is precisely the mechanism I had in mind. I'll still need to dig out the references for the rest of the harmala action but I do recall mention of some kind of influence on some part of the cholinergic pathways one way or another. It's a matter of going through the literature - but alas, once again my bedtime is approaching.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Espurrr
#13 Posted : 5/23/2022 11:00:47 PM




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considering the wide range of harmalas effect on different neurotransmitters and enzymes and the different chain of effects with the oral and buccal routes, and also that the harmalas will induce changes based on the individual biochemistry of the person which is not necessarily constant due to situational adaptations such as no food aka fasted states and also factors like a person's diet and lifestyle (meditative/non-meditative), IME the experience induced by taking a large dose of harmalas beyond what one would normally consume to inhibit mao activity for a short period (that amount is greatly reduced while in a fasted state as the bulk of maos in the body are produced as digestive/metabolic enzymes which means a heavy dose of harmalas while fasted will have a greater magnitude of effects and also inherently different in the experience) is relatively similar to the stable change in biochemistry of a person who for a very long period of time sustains themselves on very small amounts of raw plant based food albeit varied to meet nutritional needs which calls for an adaptation to almost all biological functions specially enzymatic responses which cause changes to hormonal/steroidal/neurotransmitter activities in a way that IME is absolutely psychedelic AND beyond.

i would also like to interest you in the image below which had also piqued my interest due to my experiences with beta-carbolines and dieta-fasting/meditation
Espurrr attached the following image(s):
photo_2022-05-23_14-55-40.jpg (106kb) downloaded 131 time(s).
 
murklan
#14 Posted : 5/29/2022 9:53:34 PM

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Great to see what we can find out about this topic. I'm curious if any one of you have read (or written) about how the different ROA behaves on neurotransmitters and receptors. If there are a difference?

And as you write Espurrr, there are many more factors involved, like fasting and ones general and specific metabolic state that day.

I mention what seems to be a difference in vaping DMT with oral or sublingual harmalas, compared to Ayahuasca. The later don't seem to have diminishing (visual/visionary) effects even what used weekly. One aspect is that if the brew is made with Caapi there will be mainly harmine and THH. Making the harmalas from Rue (as me and many of us are doing) we miss the THH and also will ingest quite a bit of harmaline.

As I wrote, I also find a harmine / harmaline heavy mix good in it's own way. But like you've said it seems to block the DMT-effects in some way.
 
igorcarajo
#15 Posted : 5/30/2022 6:25:23 AM
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downwardsfromzero wrote:
Indeed, Espurrr. A heavy dose of 50/50 light roast + dark roast rue tea can be deeply mystical, no DMT necessary.

Whoa. Do you get different effects with light and dark roasts of rue? How do you do a light or a dark roast?
 
murklan
#16 Posted : 5/30/2022 9:02:27 AM

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igorcarajo wrote:
downwardsfromzero wrote:
Indeed, Espurrr. A heavy dose of 50/50 light roast + dark roast rue tea can be deeply mystical, no DMT necessary.

Whoa. Do you get different effects with light and dark roasts of rue? How do you do a light or a dark roast?


Even if I have not had a deep rue only experience I've noticed a clear difference beween none, light and dark roasted rue tea. There is a lot more to read about it here: Dark Roast Rue Brew - 5 Grams
 
murklan
#17 Posted : 6/26/2022 12:04:53 AM

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Time for a update. I call it 'Finding my limits'.

As I have written I've never really felt nausea from harmalas/syrian rue. Neither extracted now brewed as a tea. So I've been curious of what my upper limits were, and how harmalas fells when they were strong enough to be felt on their own. I usually feel a stimulation and a mild buzz in the body at ~1.5 - 2h after drinking a tea or taking a extract. Perhaps a slight shift in the mind, like to be able to focus better while meditating, and very dim mental images with closed eyes.

So this time I wanted to go a bit further, taking more of the rue and just a bit vaped DMT. So I brewed 3g of lightly roasted seeds. Simmer for 25 min with a pinch of citric acid. Then after drinking that I also too 200 mg of a extract of mostly harmine. I like to have more of harmine then harmaline when doing DMT.

Then I continued with my day, having some work to do and knowing that it usually takes 1,5-2h before I stat feeling any effects. I should also add that I this time had a big cup of strong coffee 2.5h before drinking the rue. I normally have coffee the same day as I take rue but then at around 6-7 before. This might have changed things...

After around 1.5h I could start noticing something. A bit like when you've had to much coffee. Slight nausea and almost a cold sweat. But not alarming, just unusual. This progressed and I had my first purge at around 2 after drinking the brew. I still needed to get some things done before I could relax and I managed this (the nausea came in waves). What worked best was to lay still, then I could not feel the nausea, but I also didn't want to do anything else.

I packed my self in my hammock with pillows and blankets and let the evening come. Being restless I usually find it hard to stay there for long time even if it's a really lovely place. Now I only wanted to lay still, listening to the evenings sounds and the wind in the trees. All lovely except that I was 'locked' in this stade and could not do anything else. A blessing and a curse.

Being stimulated by the harmalas I did not fall asleep. Just drifting around with the thoughts. Some very dim images (but different to what I normally have when sober) and feeling introvert. Not any strong emotions neither positive or negative. I still thought that I might do some light DMT when I was feeling ok... but I didn't. The hours passed and after ~2.5h I went inside because I was getting a bit cold. Now laying on a mattress with no music into the night. Getting out a few tie for more purging.

Not sleepy and not possible to have any DMT at all. I thought about it, wondering how it would be when being in such a heavy harmala-state.

The evening ended at 03 (~7h after drinking the brew) when I got up and to bed. Feeling quite ok, but still having strange visual 'glitches' in my peripheral vision, that I've not had before. Fell asleep quite soon and having a good night. Felt a bit effected about half of the day after.

All in all, a teaching for me and perhaps what I needed. Being floored and put to deep stillness.
 
Jees
#18 Posted : 6/26/2022 12:14:48 PM

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Hi murklan,
I recognize a lot of that, like that huge pause-button experience, no need or will to dive deeper, the offline-state feeling, also the no sleep tendency after harmalas...
Good that there was 2.5 hours between the coffee and intake. This combination has led me to hairy experiences, so I keep them apart. Exactly as you said: a too much of coffee feeling may result in restlessness and nerving, cold sweat... Seems very weathered harmala users can do it without issue, but not me, I consider myself sensitive for the coffee-harmala combo. Some medications have caffeine to boost their effectiveness.
 
starway7
#19 Posted : 6/27/2022 4:07:52 PM

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You should also notice a different experiance compaired to oral.. if you take ..Harmine sublingually... use rue extract ..paste....or simply ..[chew rue seed] sublingually under tounge..before vaping spice!

Full spectrum Rue paste ..[or just chew 20 or more seeds].. placed under tounge 10 to 20 minutes before vapeing spice...
Within 5 to 7 seconds after taking one small hit of spice..
[[i felt an invisable lead blanket compleatly cover me from head to toe..pain didnt exist!..]]

It was as if i switched on my brains feel good circuts...i was awesomly comfortable the feeling was a trip in itself ...almost like injected myself with cocaine .or some feel good narcotic!

i felt like my soul was floating above my body..wanting to temporally free itself for an OBE journey...I resisted the feeling of wanting to fall asleep .. because i wasnt 100 percent shure of what was happening...

With this kind of super relaxation .. I felt close to an ..out of body experiance.. it felt very close to falling asleep ..and enter a posible lucid dream..

Not a lot of eye candy..some cevs...because of the low spice dose...but the head space was visual in its own way... [more spice used would have caused more OEVs and CEVs...

this low dose spice with rue thing could have a connection to ..concious dreaming!

If true.. this would really intrest the lucid ..dreaming comunity

going heavy or light on the two actives [spice..and sublingual rue] is like fine tuneing the experiance! proceed with caution..
 
 
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