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The Perfect Reason:The Perfect Justification... Options
 
Voidmatrix
#1 Posted : 4/1/2022 4:29:13 PM

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...doesn't exist.

For any valid argument there's always an equally valid counter-argument.

In my neurosis in bringing myself to do psychedelics, I keep grasping for an inarguable motive, reason, and justification for my use (as if I am required to justify it to anyone but myself), one that withstands absolute scrutiny... isn't that cute.

My own positioning in certain conceptual affairs sometimes makes me too effective at developing counter-arguments against myself.

I have a long list if purposes and intents and foci and goals with respect to psychedelics. On one hand, I find them [intents, foci, goals] wholesome, thoughtful, directed, incisive, fulfilling, potentially enlightening, and true to me. But I always wonder, "am I deluding myself?"

I'm a silly goose.

Trust myself. Lighten up. Ensnare my neuroses. Seek inner validation.

If this is you, with an open heart, I encourage the same: trust yourself. Lighten up, Ensnare your obstacles. Seek inner validation.

Love

One love
Chop Wood; Carry Water


Know thyself, nothing in excess, certainty brings insanity- Delphic Maxims

DMT always has something new to show you Twisted Evil

Question everything... including questioning everything... There's so much I could be wrong about and have no idea...
All posts and supposed experiences are from an imaginary interdimensional being. This being has the proclivity and compulsion for delving in depths it shouldn't. Posts should be taken with a grain of salt. 👽
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
fathomlessness
#2 Posted : 5/10/2022 3:08:20 PM

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Voidmatrix wrote:

For any valid argument there's always an equally valid counter-argument.


Actually, thats not true... at least in logic.

If A is true then B is true.
A is true.
Therefore B is true.

This is deductive reasoning, it is called modus ponens

But I take your further point. All reasoning only gets you so far till you reach the end of logic and your wit. To quote Shakespeare: "These earthly godfathers of heaven's lights That give a name to every fixed star Have no more profit of their shining nights Than those that walk and wot not what they are". Basically saying, all the scientists and philosophers who give a name to everything and only reason have no more fulfillment at the end of the day than the animals that walk and don't even know what they are.

Alan watts used to say something like "Reasoned thoughts are a good slave but a bad master". Chances are the entire thing is a delusion. The approach then? To simply know enough to feel fulfilled and in balance. To not have too much cognitive dissonance as to forget the mystery. As another member on here said recently "What's really interesting is the mystery. If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking. I've never seen anybody really find the answer. They think they have, so they stop thinking. But the job is to seek mystery, evoke mystery, plant a garden in which strange plants grow and mysteries bloom. The need for mystery is greater than the need for an answer."
 
Voidmatrix
#3 Posted : 5/10/2022 3:21:36 PM

Surrender and BE free

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fathomlessness wrote:
Voidmatrix wrote:

For any valid argument there's always an equally valid counter-argument.


Actually, thats not true... at least in logic.

If A is true then B is true.
A is true.
Therefore B is true.

This is deductive reasoning, it is called modus ponens

But I take your further point. All reasoning only gets you so far till you reach the end of logic and your wit. To quote Shakespeare: "These earthly godfathers of heaven's lights That give a name to every fixed star Have no more profit of their shining nights Than those that walk and wot not what they are". Basically saying, all the scientists and philosophers who give a name to everything and only reason have no more fulfillment at the end of the day than the animals that walk and don't even know what they are.

Alan watts used to say something like "Reasoned thoughts are a good slave but a bad master". Chances are the entire thing is a delusion. The approach then? To simply know enough to feel fulfilled and in balance. To not have too much cognitive dissonance as to forget the mystery. As another member on here said recently "What's really interesting is the mystery. If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking. I've never seen anybody really find the answer. They think they have, so they stop thinking. But the job is to seek mystery, evoke mystery, plant a garden in which strange plants grow and mysteries bloom. The need for mystery is greater than the need for an answer."


You're correct in regards to truth value, but I was speaking about validity and validity alone, which is more about "proper" argument form.

All the same thank you. Smile This came about as a result of noticing how, with psychedelics, I don't feel "justified" with myself, and have questioned myself a bit too far.

And since you seem keen on philosophy you might enjoy this.

And I am certainly with you on the mystery sentiment. Hence my love of skepticism. That said, smoalk more: twisted:

One love
Chop Wood; Carry Water


Know thyself, nothing in excess, certainty brings insanity- Delphic Maxims

DMT always has something new to show you Twisted Evil

Question everything... including questioning everything... There's so much I could be wrong about and have no idea...
All posts and supposed experiences are from an imaginary interdimensional being. This being has the proclivity and compulsion for delving in depths it shouldn't. Posts should be taken with a grain of salt. 👽
 
fink
#4 Posted : 5/11/2022 12:20:20 AM

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In the end everything is just an experience and there is no justification for any of it. Why smell a flower? Why talk to another? Why jump into the water? Why even bother to wake up for another day?

Experience, awareness, can be a gift or a curse dependant on how we colour it in. But we have been given the crayons for whatever reason. So colour away without regard or a need for justification. Go outside the lines if you want. Eat the crayons if you prefer. The potential for conflict is all around and often unavoidable. Don't fight with yourself.
I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.
 
Voidmatrix
#5 Posted : 5/11/2022 12:30:46 AM

Surrender and BE free

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fink wrote:
In the end everything is just an experience and there is no justification for any of it. Why smell a flower? Why talk to another? Why jump into the water? Why even bother to wake up for another day?

Experience, awareness, can be a gift or a curse dependant on how we colour it in. But we have been given the crayons for whatever reason. So colour away without regard or a need for justification. Go outside the lines if you want. Eat the crayons if you prefer. The potential for conflict is all around and often unavoidable. Don't fight with yourself.


Well said fink! And thank you.

I will say, that while I may have felt that this fight has been with myself in the past, the true opponent is my thought-hijacking depression. It's refreshing to realize this.

And this idea around justification doesn't really fit me or my personal philosophies, like my skepticism thread where I call into question justifications for knowledge! I guess I got kind of lost along the way (in attempts at being too considerate in general), felt silly about it, and have grown from it.

When we don't appeal to a paradigm, necessitating justification becomes pointless. So just be and again, smoalk moar Smile

One love
Chop Wood; Carry Water


Know thyself, nothing in excess, certainty brings insanity- Delphic Maxims

DMT always has something new to show you Twisted Evil

Question everything... including questioning everything... There's so much I could be wrong about and have no idea...
All posts and supposed experiences are from an imaginary interdimensional being. This being has the proclivity and compulsion for delving in depths it shouldn't. Posts should be taken with a grain of salt. 👽
 
fink
#6 Posted : 5/11/2022 12:20:29 PM

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Yes! Smoalk moar.

I battle also with depression since early teens, not permanent but definitely multiple prolonged chapters. I've never been diagnosed as I am too lazy to visit doctors. I've been once since adulthood and that was because my friend shot a .22 pellet into my hand by mistake. But depressive episodes have definitely been a part of my life. Addictions also, most notably cannabis for 15 years. Amazing medicine, but I abused it and created an unhealthy relationship with it.

Forgive me, I'm off on a tangent already.

But I think my point was meant to be that it's easy for me to reply and say clever words about crayons when it's someone else's life in discussion. I definitely dont have all the answers for my own mess (:



Perhaps you've expressed it elsewhere that I missed. But could you highlight for my benefit any of the reasons why you should not take a trip when you feel like it?
I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.
 
Voidmatrix
#7 Posted : 5/11/2022 12:52:18 PM

Surrender and BE free

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fink wrote:

I battle also with depression since early teens, not permanent but definitely multiple prolonged chapters. I've never been diagnosed as I am too lazy to visit doctors. I've been once since adulthood and that was because my friend shot a .22 pellet into my hand by mistake. But depressive episodes have definitely been a part of my life. Addictions also, most notably cannabis for 15 years. Amazing medicine, but I abused it and created an unhealthy relationship with it.

Forgive me, I'm off on a tangent already.


I enjoy when a thread moves organically, especially ones that I begin, so feel free to share whatever you like Smile

And thank you for sharing as well. It's a highly nuanced and complex topic, and the more that share, the more that can understand.

fink wrote:
But I think my point was meant to be that it's easy for me to reply and say clever words about crayons when it's someone else's life in discussion. I definitely dont have all the answers for my own mess


I thought it was a fun analogy and helpful. While I think justifications are beneficial in aiding in thoughtful approaches to things, it, like many other things for me, went a bit too far. Been noticing a lot of "too much of a good thing" in many regards lately.

fink wrote:
Perhaps you've expressed it elsewhere that I missed. But could you highlight for my benefit any of the reasons why you should not take a trip when you feel like it?


I've talked about this in a few threads, starting with this one.

Have a great day. I need to finish getting ready for work Smile

One love
Chop Wood; Carry Water


Know thyself, nothing in excess, certainty brings insanity- Delphic Maxims

DMT always has something new to show you Twisted Evil

Question everything... including questioning everything... There's so much I could be wrong about and have no idea...
All posts and supposed experiences are from an imaginary interdimensional being. This being has the proclivity and compulsion for delving in depths it shouldn't. Posts should be taken with a grain of salt. 👽
 
 
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