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Journal: 50 Sublingual HPBCD DMT Ayahuasca journeys over a years time Options
 
GordoTEK
#161 Posted : 9/24/2021 1:12:05 AM

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ava69 - I looked into the study you mentioned with regard to aloe vera but it was based on oral administration, which I'm not really interested in (everyone already knows taking DMT with harmalas orally works fine although if you get better bioavailability with additional supplements like aloe vera gel that is great). The study does reference another study (attached) but it was an in vitro study that looked at aloe vera gel enhancing permeability of Buccal mucosae harvested from dead pigs. Not great scientific evidence but I guess better than nothing.

Note that they used "Aloe Vera gel, in dry powder form from the International Aloe Science Council" so if you wanted to experiment, I'd buy a concentrated powdered aloe vera gel product, it probably would make sense to get something that comes in capsules "for human consumption" vs. some of the pouches of 200x powder sold on amazon which are not labeled for human consumption. But it is surprisingly hard to find any products that are both for human consumption and pure (no additives). This one looks the most promising to me and the description says its even been tested by the same organization that supplied the gel powder for the study (IASC).

Importantly, in the referenced research they found that maximum absorption of their test compound was achieved at 2% W/V aloe vera gel powder. But when they increased the aloe to 4% or higher the absorption actually got a lot worse, so using too much is counter productive and may even block absorption. How do you interpret that to a suitable mix for sublingual DMT experimentation? I don't really know honestly, I'm guessing it's something like:
30mg DMT
2ml water (=2000mg)
40mg aloe vera gel powder (2000*0.02=40)
But if you only need so little, it might make sense to use this cheaper supplement which contains 50mg per capsule then you can just use one capsule. However it contains various additives including extra virgin olive oil so I'm on the fence about that.
 

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downwardsfromzero
#162 Posted : 9/24/2021 8:56:46 AM

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Quote:
When making a tea from the whole plant, you are extracting the essence of the plant intelligence from its very flesh, not just isolating the alkaloids. In the alchemic method "Spagyrics" developed by Paracelsus, often considered the father of modern medicine, the ashes of the plant are commonly burnt and then blended back into an alcohol-extracted tincture. Friends who have experimented with this procedure report that a Spagyric tincture of Ayahuasca is much more potent than a normal tea prepared from the same amount of Ayahuasca vine.
This bit stood out to me. The ashes would only contain mineral components salts of magnesium and potassium mostly, along with silica and a few anions such as phosphate, sulphate, carbonate etc.

This gives rise to the possibility of numerous further experiments. Would magnesium act as a complexing agent that helps carry the DMT into the body? And how about mixing the DMT with barley grass powder?

Anything to get optimal mileage from the precious molecules! Or is it simply the ritual process that focusses the intent prior to the experience? Heightened suggestibility is a noted component of the psychedelic mindstate so this might apply even to people who were merely told that the spagyric tincture was somehow special. Without double blind trials any claims about enhanced efficacy remain anecdotal at best.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
GordoTEK
#163 Posted : 9/24/2021 10:09:09 PM

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The more anecdotes and experiments conducted and described the better off we are, but when I see things like "extracting the essence of the plant intelligence" or the potency benefits of burning plants into ashes and mixing them into one's concoctions I'm reminded that we could really benefit from more rigorous controlled double blind studies. Hopefully all the new psychedelic research centers and companies working with psychedelics today will do more of this and maybe we can also get more rigorous experiments even amongst individual hobbyists and forum participants. Don't want to veer of topic but I've been thinking how interesting it would be to have a very carefully controlled double blind user experience comparison between different species of mushrooms carefully adjusted for dosage and carefully encapsulated so they were indistinguishable.

Anyway, point taken on the many reported problems with pharmahuasca. I put together some guidelines years ago for a video which might be helpful for some people but even this is just based on various limited experimentation and anecdotes. What I believe to be particularly useful (see note at bottom) is that harmalas are far better absorbed when taken sublingually and yet most people don't seem to be aware of that. This is why I was initially so interested in this thread because it would be great if DMT could also be taken sublingually but few have reported success in that regard. Of course if taking the DMT orally then you would ALSO need to take SOME (but not all) of the harmalas orally as well. Citrus juice (orange/lemon) is typically used to convert freebase constituents to salt form making them more bioavailable. But honestly I've taken hamalas sublingually in freebase form many times and it seems to work for me. Its also worth noting that when people take the "real" aya brew for example at a retreat center in the jungle, you are typically given additional doses every 2 hours or so, and yet I don't think people tend to do likewise with pharmahuasca so that is another major difference. Many people don't get a strong visual experience (sometimes no visuals at all) from the first drink, but they do from subsequent drinks. This is probably because the harmalas are fully kicked in 1-2 hours after that first dose. Taking the sublingual harmalas BEFORE your pharma DMT dose has a similar effect only it happens much faster.


GordoTEK attached the following image(s):
DosageGuidelines.png (822kb) downloaded 683 time(s).
 
GordoTEK
#164 Posted : 9/28/2021 3:08:02 AM

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That's an impressive user experience report. If I didn't have my doubts about the safety of sublingual HPBCD I would try this method myself. Hopefully an alternative to HPBCD will be discovered.
 
Loveall
#165 Posted : 9/28/2021 4:24:36 AM

❤️‍🔥

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When complexing with DMT, what kind of FB DMT is being used with success?

- White fluffy powder (low degree of polymerization)
- Yellow powder
- Yellow/Orange powder with some oily/crusty parts
- Yellow/Orange oil/crust with little to no powder

I ask because each of these DMT forms may have different degrees of polymerization and complex differently with HPBCD. White fluffy DMT may complex better than the rest. Not sure, but want to ask those doing the experiments. Thanks.

Note: With enough heat, all these forms should vaporize fine. For sensitive devices like e-mesh, the more orange/oily DMT may need a noticable higher temperature setting. Users using a handheld flame will likely not notice a difference I think.
💚🌵💚 Mescaline CIELO TEK 💚🌵💚
💚🌳💚DMT salt e-juice HIELO TEK💚🌳💚
💚🍃💚 Salvinorin Chilled Acetone with IPA and Naphtha re-X TEK💚🍃💚
 
GordoTEK
#166 Posted : 10/11/2021 7:34:31 PM

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ava69 wrote:

On safety: I am not worried about using HPBCD sublingually... We are using very, very low doses: 770mg HPBCD compared to 4000 to 8000mg/kg in cats and mice, yes, that is 4000 to 8000 mg per kilogram injections, again we are not using anywhere near the insane mega-doses like they were using to treat Niemann–Pick disease in the studies.


Again I'm very glad to know you have no hearing loss and that there is allegedly a long history of people using this product sublingually without any issues, that's certainly encouraging and decent evidence of safety. But just need to correct your above reply, hearing damage in humans was observed with doses ranging from 50 mg to 900 mg intrathecal HPβCD" (this can be found under "Human Ototoxicity in the linked study. Yes, that was NOT with sublingual administration just so there is no confusion. I am not aware of any safety studies with this drug and sublingual administration. With intrathecal administration hearing loss in humans appears to be rapid, some patients reported auditory symptoms (e.g., tinnitus, aural fullness) within hours of the infusion, and loss of OAE and changes in pure-tone thresholds were documented hours after administration.
Here is a screen shot of one of the Amazon product reviews that gives me concern:

Could this just be a coincidence? Possibly.
GordoTEK attached the following image(s):
HpBCD.jpg (80kb) downloaded 246 time(s).
 
some one
#167 Posted : 10/14/2021 12:54:10 PM

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Thanks for the warning GordoTEK.

Good that ava69 is not experiencing any damage with this route and dosages, but that's just one account.

Would it be possible to buy aloe cuttings and extract the needed elements, or prepare the plant somehow to substitute HPBCD? Dehydrate the aloe into a dense gel using a food dehydrator / vacuum chamber + desiccant, etc?

I prefer going all natural even if hearing damage would not be an issue.

some = one | here = some | there = one
 
twitchy
#168 Posted : 10/17/2021 6:39:39 PM

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This is a fascinating read, replying just to express general awe, and place mark the thread for future reading. Thumbs up
Author of this Post assumes no Responsibility, nor makes any Guarantee of the Accuracy or Validity of material in this Post. Material Contained or referred to in this Post is presented for Entertainment Purposes Only. This Material IS Not Intended to be Inferred, or Interpreted as Information, Advice, News, Instruction, or Factual Information.
 
some one
#169 Posted : 10/18/2021 8:54:11 AM

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Quote:
This is a fascinating read, replying just to express general awe, and place mark the thread for future reading

I second this. Thanks for the report. Great findings. Looking forward to try the THH + LSD combo!

Going back a step..

If anyone could give some advice and/or tips regarding preparing Aloe to complex DMT that would be great Thumbs up

Quote:
Would it be possible to buy aloe cuttings and extract the needed elements, or prepare the plant somehow to substitute HPBCD? Dehydrate the aloe into a dense gel using a food dehydrator / vacuum chamber + desiccant, etc? I prefer going all natural even if hearing damage would not be an issue.
some = one | here = some | there = one
 
starway7
#170 Posted : 10/18/2021 2:21:28 PM

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some one wrote:
Quote:
This is a fascinating read, replying just to express general awe, and place mark the thread for future reading

I second this. Thanks for the report. Great findings. Looking forward to try the THH + LSD combo!

Going back a step..

If anyone could give some advice and/or tips regarding preparing Aloe to complex DMT that would be great Thumbs up

Quote:
Would it be possible to buy aloe cuttings and extract the needed elements, or prepare the plant somehow to substitute HPBCD? Dehydrate the aloe into a dense gel using a food dehydrator / vacuum chamber + desiccant, etc? I prefer going all natural even if hearing damage would not be an issue.


....using aloe vera gell to complex dmt ..[sublingually]..would be an interesting test... because aloe readily sinks transdermally into outside body skin...down to the celular level..thats surprising concidering aloe
is mostly water!


Im almost positive!! aloe gel would absorbe sublingually.. ...but could it carry the spice molecule sublingually with it is the question..?

Freebase spice might desolve in hot water..so an early preperation mixture might be made with it using aloe vera and spice... but still concerned about the spice molecule size?..could it pass through sublingually?


i think you can get powdered aloe vera and add the amount of liquid to it to inhance its actions..







100% Organic Aloe Vera Powder USDA Certified by mi naturehttps://www.amazon.com › 100-Organic-Powder-CERT...
Buy 100% Organic Aloe Vera Powder USDA Certified by mi nature - 8 OZ / 227 g / 1/2 lb | Aloe Barbadensis | Vegan | Non GMO on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on ...





 
Homo Trypens
#171 Posted : 10/21/2021 4:33:41 PM

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I tried the zinc conversion of harmalas to THH described in post #12 of this thread. It worked great!

I still had a few grams of harmalas from earlier extractions that were various degrees of brown. They were brown, but pretty pure - i did not notice a difference to the white harmalas regarding dose -> effect. After my most recent one yielded near white freebase, i decided to use all the brown ones for this. Also threw in a a half gram of HCl i still had.

I followed the instructions almost exactly, i just used much less zinc but gave it a night on the magstir. Also i didn't separate harmaline, but used the full spectrum rue alkaloids. I used 5g harmalas, 8g of zinc powder, 450ml of 5% acetic acid.

I'm happy to report that i got almost exactly 75% yield.
This should mean that using salts is completely ok, otherwise my yield should've been a bit lower. Makes sense, too - dissolving freebase in vinegar turns it into salt anyway.
My THH has a bit of a yellow tint, my guess is that this is due to the brown that was in the starting material.

First bioassay of 270mg was definitely promising! During the effects, it wasn't very pronounced. All i can say is it was dreamy and i had zero nausea. The sleep after was great though, and the next few mornings were different Smile

Tonight i'm gonna dose again, combined 1:2 with full spectrum rue harmalas. The idea is to approximate the profile of caapi. I'll decide on the fly whether or not i'll add DMT.

@ava69:
Thanks for posting the method!
 
JKW
#172 Posted : 11/12/2021 2:07:25 PM

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Not quite a full report. Too many things happening: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=98087


Part 13: THH + mushrooms report from friend


Quote:
Just wanted to let you know that I finally tried 3 grams of cubensis with 180 mg of THH, and all I can say is WOW! Intense and beautiful like I've never had before, with a definite DMT edge to it.

I've always been a hard-head, needing 4.5+ grams to get anywhere interesting. I've done up to 9 grams, and never got near this intensity.

Just wanted to thank you for the tip. This is the way for me to go form now on.
I look forward to combining THH with DMT.

All the best, and take care.
[/quote]
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Ruffles
#173 Posted : 11/19/2021 10:43:25 PM
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Hope you have a good lift off! Please bring back memorabilia from the aether!
 
starway7
#174 Posted : 12/8/2021 1:28:19 AM

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aloe vera gell is very good stuff..
Ive applyed aloe vera gell on a cut lip and within 5 minutes the cut was closing up!

Aloe vera acelerates skin healing very well...and it absorbs into the skin down to the celular level within minutes...

Why are you using aloe vera juice instead og 100 percent aloe vera gell?

I havent had much success using it for sublingual DMT..

Dmt doesnt work sublingually for me well enough...

Ava 69 are you saying you found a way to use aloe vera with dmt sublingually?
 
Ruffles
#175 Posted : 12/8/2021 7:25:53 PM
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Can you name all of the ingredients inside the aloe vera stuff you are using? I don`t mean the components inside aloe vera itself (complex sugars, saponins, etc), but the additives inside the product for application.

It can`t be just a pure extract straight from the plant (unless you got the plant and break a leaf for the goo in it, which tastes absolutely horrible). It must have excipients, preservers, emulsifiers, antioxidants, etc. By a quick look on the net, common ingredients are: ascorbic and citric acid (antioxidants, which by the way, are going to convert freebases into salt), sorbitol, EtOH, EDTA (metal ion chelant), carbomers (+ viscosity, gellifier), glycerin, PPG, PEG and the list grows.

Just saying that you might be compounding unexpected factors in your experiment.

Quote from the paper:

Quote:
In the formulation glycerine was used as humectant, benzoic acid was used as a preservative and triethanolamine was employed for adjustment of pH. Carbopol 934 was dissolved in a mixture of glycerin and sodium lauryl sulphate (as surfactant)18 at 80-85°C on a water bath with constant stirring. The mixture was cooled to 40 °C. Aloe vera gel was gradually added to the above mixture with constant stirring to obtain mucilaginous consistency. The stirring was stopped as the gel consistency increased. Lidocaine and benzoic acid was then added and the mixture was stirred. Finally, triethanolamine was added then it was stirred by using propeller for 2 hours at 500 rpm. The entire procedure was performed by addition of DMSO instead of Aloe vera gel.


So you`ve got carbomer, glycerin, soap and triethanolamine with or without DMSO all in known amounts. Since they made this mix for both DMSO+ and DMSO- applications, they quantified DMSO`s effect on absorption.
 
_Trip_
#176 Posted : 12/12/2021 10:16:54 PM

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Aloe vera gel, very interesting stuff look forward to hearing results. Awesome work.
Disclaimer: All my posts are of total fiction.



 
physics envy
#177 Posted : 12/22/2021 12:35:29 AM

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A couple of questions just for clarification regarding the aloe juice usage...

@Ava: In post #291 from 12/7 you say:
Quote:
"Update: I've immensely enjoyed 7 trips (every 2 weeks) for the past 4 months of taking 300 to 325mg pure THH orally with 300 to 400ug 1-acetaldehyde LSD. Now what I do is alternate every 2 weeks, by taking either the THH/1-acetaldehyde LSD combo (like ALD-52...ZERO anxiety & neon colorful..how to make explained in post #284), or the method below: 300 to 325 oral THH with aloe vera juice sublingual 90mg DMT mixed with 35mg harmine fb x re-dosed every 1.5 hour for 4.5 hour of very strong long lasting journey."


and

Quote:
"In fact, I have switched over to only using the natural aloe vera juice instead of HPBCD exclusively for sublingual absorption of DMT, this in order to avoid any potential health side effects. It works very well indeed."


Can you clarify how many times you used the Aloe/dmt version?


Then in post #294 from 12/8 you say:
Quote:
"I need something much better than what I used. Any ideas? I scrapped the sorry ass juice from Target."


It sounds like in #291 you say you've tried the aloe substitute some number of times (3-4?) over the previous X months and it worked great, but then a day later you call it 'sorry ass'. Why the 180 on the juice so quickly? I feel like I'm missing something here? Thanks for clarifying!


@Ruffles - the Target product lists "Citric Acid (Ph Stabilizer), Sodium Benzoate (Preservative)." as the additional ingredients. But if I read the label right, it's 99.8% aloe, so would the .2% be enough to make much of a difference?
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
physics envy
#178 Posted : 12/23/2021 12:03:48 AM

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@Ava - Clarifying question regarding 1-acetaldehyde LSD recipe...

In the Shroomery threads, your recipe includes peppermint extract. However, your post here (#284) does not.

Although I could have easily missed it, I did not see anything in the shroomery discussing removing peppermint from the recipe. Have you tested without and found the same results as with?

Thanks!
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
roninsina
#179 Posted : 12/23/2021 3:13:57 AM

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More excellent work ava69! You cracked the transdermal code. Hey, don’t get discouraged by the limited participation in your thread here. I think there are a lot of folks like myself who are following along, but aren’t in a current position to be doing bioassays. I’ve yet to attempt producing THH, but have wanted to for many years, and I’ll come back and reference this thread when I have the time and other resources. I plan to take a little time for myself, earlyish in the new year, so hopefully a set and setting will present itself to duplicate your transdermal results. Thanks again for all your work Thumbs up
"We dance round in a ring and suppose,
while the secret sits in the middle and knows." Robert Frost

 
physics envy
#180 Posted : 12/23/2021 6:04:15 AM

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@Ava - Thank you for your responses. And I like the idea of trying the forearm DMT method over the spoon-in-mouth method! We have filleted fresh aloe blades and also used store-bought 100% aloe gel to make homemade lotions, but it is somewhat expensive. Not that a lot is used for this particular ROA, but I'm curious as to what you didn't like about the $6/gallon aloe juice that you previously mentioned?

I was planning on doing a couple of tabs for a Tool concert in late January. If I have time I'll try the sherry-LSD over new year's weekend as a first test to see if I notice any difference. I don't have any THH to mix in, so it will just be a straight sherry/LSD experiment. Regardless, I'll report my trials for those who care.

@Starway7 - would you mind giving some additional details regarding your experiment with aloe + spice? How much of each did you use? Where did you use it?
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
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