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The destruction of illusions Options
 
Northerner
#1 Posted : 6/1/2021 1:25:47 AM

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Before I touched DMT I might have considered myself a spiritual person. Things seemed to exist in a place between this world and many others. Once I started down the spicy road, over a series of deeper and deeper journeys, I met many manifestations that appeared to to me to be entities and even deities. I had harsher experiences as well, experiences where I died and was disassociated from everything I know to be and then that which was disassociated was destroyed as well. These sorts of things can leave one wondering about the fabric of reality.

After time and thinking all the dust settles. So I know that A, B, and C were illusions, they are clearly a manifestation of my mind. So what about D through to F? And someone else's ideas of G through to K? They're pretty popular ideas so they should be valid. But then again one doesn't have to look very far back into history to see that humans are perpetually wrong about almost everything and change their minds consistently. Noone else is able to shed any light on this for me either, I'll have to make my own mind up.

But I've created and destroyed so many realities myself. Am I to choose one or a group of beliefs I like the feeling of and blindly accept them as truth whilst subconsciously blocking out any information that contradicts my preconceived ideas? What is there to test the validity of any of these thoughts, ideas or beliefs?

And the answer I came to was nothing. Absolutely nothing.

And such is the process that DMT lead me to be borderline atheist. I know it's contrary to everything in popular literature that happens when people embark on entheogenic journeys. Or maybe it's just that but a different take on it. Maybe my realisations that the things that are happening right here in my life, in this world of consensus reality, are what counts at this stage in life and other esoteric musings are an unnecessary distraction that appear to be fantastical.

Though psychedelics are no less impressive now, there's not a jaded reflection that makes me doubt every moment of my experiences. Perhaps they are even better than ever because I'm not concerned about things I cannot know.
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
 

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Voidmatrix
#2 Posted : 6/1/2021 1:38:51 AM

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That was really beautiful (or is it my coming down that makes me think so? Hahaha).

A lot of what you've stated is why I am philosophically a skeptic in multiple degrees (even radical skepticism: I can't say I know you exist), and why I see paradoxes everywhere.

Thank you for sharing with usLove

One love
Question everything... including questioning everything...
There's so much I could be wrong about and have no idea...
The only safe place is the choice you make
All posts, responses, ideas and supposed experiences are that of an imaginary interdimensional being . This being comes to you with the proclivity and compulsion for delving in depths it shouldn't. That being said, everything posted must, perhaps, be taken lightly and with a grain of salt. 👽
 
shroombee
#3 Posted : 6/1/2021 3:03:28 AM

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Northerner wrote:
And such is the process that DMT lead me to be borderline atheist. I know it's contrary to everything in popular literature that happens when people embark on entheogenic journeys. Or maybe it's just that but a different take on it. Maybe my realisations that the things that are happening right here in my life, in this world of consensus reality, are what counts at this stage in life and other esoteric musings are an unnecessary distraction that appear to be fantastical.

Thanks for sharing.

My background is science and engineering. Before psychedelics, I did not resonate with spiritual ideas. After my first experiences I became what some would categorize a "spiritual person". But now after many psychedelic journeys and meditation practice, I don't consider myself spiritual or not spiritual. The term "spiritual" has no meaning for me. Same goes with conscious or woke or any of those terms that try to describe some alternative way of thinking and being. I don't find any of those ideas or labels to be useful to actually living a meaningful life.

Even so, I do have some past-life and after-life narratives triggered by psychedelic journeys that are fun to believe. But to your point, who knows what to believe? Who knows what's actually real anyhow? So I just believe what appears to be useful or convenient at the time. Works for me, and I'm very content with my life situation. Smile
 
Tomtegubbe
#4 Posted : 6/1/2021 6:51:27 AM

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I think the deeper you go, the less you can rely on premade concepts.

Atheism is answer to the question whether there is God or gods outside human consciousness, but what if we establish through experience that there are such worlds *inside*? Atheism in the common use of the term doesn't operate in such paradigm.
My preferred method:
Very easy pharmahuasca recipe

My preferred introductory article:
Just a Wee Bit More About DMT, by Nick Sand
 
shroombee
#5 Posted : 6/1/2021 8:16:32 AM

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Tomtegubbe wrote:
I think the deeper you go, the less you can rely on premade concepts.

Yes. Each journey strips away more of our past conditioning. And we end up developing our own unique perspectives on reality, informed less by society's conditioning and more by our own internal experiences.
 
ChristianMeteor
#6 Posted : 8/5/2021 4:52:50 AM

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Any belief that is claimed to be irrefutable is bold and probably wrong. I like to think of things more through the lense of limited perception and understanding. That way, conclusions I make are based in my momentary understanding instead of absolute assertions.

Try to be easier on yourself. It's okay to be wrong about things. Just saying "I refuse to belief anything" is cowardly, in my opinion.
 
Spiralout
#7 Posted : 8/5/2021 2:17:49 PM

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Edited: Syntax, grammar etc.

The fact that there are no definite answers is partly why I've stopped philosophizing, or more accurately, have been trying to confine myself to philosophy that is practical or beneficial. It seems to me to almost be a waste of time to think about these questions that we can never have the answer to, but maybe that isn't true: it seems very likely that wearing yourself out thinking about these grand ideas might be a prerequisite to understanding their futility. Philosophy is still greatly useful insofar as proximate and practical concerns are concerned. When we know we can't know the answer to a question, the reasonable thing to do (after deciding whether it is the question that should be asked) is to give estimates to the plausibility of the answers, and to give estimates to the implications on your life, and others, if you were to live as if it were true.

The likelihood that I would find incontrovertible evidence of a God(s) is low; the description of what God is is ambiguous and variable. It doesn't seem it is necessary for me to believe in one to have a good life. Some of the things people seem to garner from their religious beliefs (God beliefs)is a sense of humbleness, modesty, a striving to be better although knowing you will never reach perfection, and an amazement of life; among many other things. All, or most, of these things seem to be obtainable without belief in a God, or any specific doctrine, but maybe it is necessary to jump through the mental, moral, and philosophic hoops first.

Anyways, I'm moving away from philosophical thinking. I actually wish I had saved most of it for later on in my life and had done something practical over the last decade or so.



 
Tomtegubbe
#8 Posted : 8/5/2021 3:50:47 PM

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There are two kinds of philosophy. The first one is to enquiry the truth through logic and the second one is searching for interpretations and expressions for knowledge that is a priori experimental.

I believe mystical experiences can give true experimental knowledge about the universe, but of course you can also be misled by those experiences and your interpretations. Reading mystics or religious treatises can help you reflect your own experiences and hone your intuition.
My preferred method:
Very easy pharmahuasca recipe

My preferred introductory article:
Just a Wee Bit More About DMT, by Nick Sand
 
ChristianMeteor
#9 Posted : 8/5/2021 4:13:30 PM

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Spiralout wrote:
The fact that there are no definite answers is partly why I've stopped philosophizing, or more accurately, have been trying to confine myself to philosophy that is practical or beneficial. It seems to me to almost be a waste of time to think about these questions that we can never have the answer to, but maybe that isn't true: it seems very likely that wearing yourself out thinking about these grand ideas might be a prerequisite to understanding their futility. Philosophy is still greatly useful insofar as proximate and practical concerns are concerned. When we know we can't know the answer to a question, the reasonable thing to do (after deciding whether it is the question that should be asked) is to give estimates to the plausibility of the answers, and to give estimates to the implications on your life, and others, if you were to live as if it were true.

The likelihood that I would find incontrovertible that there is a God is low and the description of God is ambiguous and varied. It doesn't seem like it is necessary for me to believe in one to have a good life. One of the things that people seem to garner from their believes is a sense of humbleness, modesty, a striving to be better although knowing you will never reach perfection, and an amazement of life. All of these things can be had without believing in a God, but maybe you have to jump through the mental, moral, and philosophic hoops first.

Anyways, I'm moving away from philosophical thinking. I actually wish I had saved most of it for later on in my life and had done something practical over the last decade or so.



This post struck me rather uncomfortably. If I am understanding correctly, you are saying that you fail to see the benefit in philosophizing about reality and that you wish you had spent the previous years doing something "productive." There are a couple problems I have with this.

One is that your current state of mind is directly attributed to where it has been, or, put another way, regret is pointless because we act in the moment with the information that we have.

The other is deciding philosophy is not productive. There are countless books written on this subject matter, and entire college degrees dedicated to its study. You do mention however that you wish you had saved it for later in life, and I want to know why this is? Personally I think that exploring such things early is more beneficial to human life because it broadens perspective and possibilities. I would not be nearly as happy as I am today if I had not explored philosophy extensively at a young age.

To clarify, I'm not saying that I think that is the best way, but rather that it has been very helpful for me, and I want to know why you fail to see benefit in it. Specifically, what philosophies have you explored and have you tried applying them to your life?

I don't mean to come across as contrary. I am genuinely curious because your post takes a significantly different approach to philosophy.
 
Spiralout
#10 Posted : 8/5/2021 7:02:26 PM

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ChristianMeteor:

I edited that post for clarity (I wrote it soon after waking up this morning).

It's not that I think philosophy is useless, I guess I'm more unsure of what I think about it. I know for certain though that it is a waste of time in certain contexts, and beneficial in certain ones. So I guess that is what I mean (that it is context dependent). There are tons of terrible philosophies: many are non-productive at best, and nihilistic and unsettling at worst. These latter types of philosophy seem to have become more and more prevalent the further we look towards modern day. Some (or a lot) of the older philosophies (Plato, Marcus Aurelius, the Babylonian and Mesopotamians etc) may not have been as sophisticated as some later thinkers, but they were honest.

I spent most of my time thinking about "what-ifs" and much of this was catalyzed or enhanced by psychedelics (and other related, and not so related, drugs). Some of this might have been useful but a lot of it was just spinning my wheels or delusional.

Yes, it seems that your current state of mind must be attributed, to a large extent at least, to your prior experiences. So maybe I am better off than I would have been if I didn't go through and think through what I have. But I certainly could have done it in a more reasonable, tidy and productive manner. There is a koan (I'm not sure who it is attributed to) : "Before Enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water". Some of the Buddhist precepts also delineate rules which basically say not to think about what happens when you die, before you were born, and all of these other metaphysical type of things. Maybe, at least for some personality types, there is no way to not think about these things, and the only way is "through".

Anyways, I wish I had focused on practical things because now I am behind the 8-ball. It seems reasonable to me to learn practical, empirical things during the first half of life, so that you can apply them and make your life, and the world, a better place. Once you have done this you can rest. And when you rest, naturally you will have time to ponder the "bigger picture". Or, maybe by that point you will not want, or need, to ponder the bigger picture, because it will have revealed itself, implicitly, through your having lived a full life.

 
ChristianMeteor
#11 Posted : 8/5/2021 7:16:14 PM

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Spiralout wrote:
ChristianMeteor:

I edited that post for clarity (I wrote it soon after waking up this morning).

It's not that I think philosophy is useless, I guess I'm more unsure of what I think about it. I know for certain though that it is a waste of time in certain contexts, and beneficial in certain ones. So I guess that is what I mean (that it is context dependent). There are tons of terrible philosophies: many are non-productive at best, and nihilistic and unsettling at worst. These latter types of philosophy seem to have become more and more prevalent the further we look towards modern day. Some (or a lot) of the older philosophies (Plato, Marcus Aurelius, the Babylonian and Mesopotamians etc) may not have been as sophisticated as some later thinkers, but they were honest.

I spent most of my time thinking about "what-ifs" and much of this was catalyzed or enhanced by psychedelics (and other related, and not so related, drugs). Some of this might have been useful but a lot of it was just spinning my wheels or delusional.

Yes, it seems that your current state of mind must be attributed, to a large extent at least, to your prior experiences. So maybe I am better off than I would have been if I didn't go through and think through what I have. But I certainly could have done it in a more reasonable, tidy and productive manner. There is a koan (I'm not sure who it is attributed to) : "Before Enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water". Some of the Buddhist precepts also delineate rules which basically say not to think about what happens when you die, before you were born, and all of these other metaphysical type of things. Maybe, at least for some personality types, there is no way to not think about these things, and the only way is "through".

Anyways, I wish I had focused on practical things because now I am behind the 8-ball. It seems reasonable to me to learn practical, empirical things during the first half of life, so that you can apply them and make your life, and the world, a better place. Once you have done this you can rest. And when you rest, naturally you will have time to ponder the "bigger picture". Or, maybe by that point you will not want, or need, to ponder the bigger picture, because it will have revealed itself, implicitly, through your having lived a full life.



Immediately upon reading this response I realized how much I do agree with you. I too was caught up in what-ifs for a time. For a while, I tried to explore infinity by using the duality principle. As it turns out, you are absolutely correct. There are some purely useless philosophies, as well as severely destructive ones.

Most philosophies have implications, too, and I think this is where the mind can become lost in it. When choosing to accept a particular idea, there are many that come along with it, but they make take time to be realized. For example, accepting the big bang theory on 8/5/2021 may yield benefit, but theres no telling what kind of thoughts and conclusions will come as a result of that acceptance by 2022.

I think this is why I try to exercise a great deal of compassion for these sorts of thoughts. People don't always realize where certain philosophies will lead them. For example, I doubt the Aztec's original philosophy was to sacrifice people to appease the gods. Perhaps it was started as a much simpler philosophy such as give up some food each month to promote agriculturally ideal weather.

I also think that this is where wisdom comes in because it gives us the tools to identify potentially harmful philosophical "Seeds" before they take root. I don't think this is exclusive to the metaphysical realm either, as being skeptical of mental conclusions and extremes is beneficial in multiple ways.

In terms of it's application to you, using the analogy of the "mind garden" you are a more skeptical farmer now. You have tried many seeds and seen those plants to fruition, and identified many noxious weeds and unusable plants in the process. You may not have had the biggest yields in the past, but now atleast you know you won't be tending weeds.

That said, life seems a perpetual learning process, and thus perpetual weeding process. Those sorts of seeds still seem to work their way in in the most creative of ways, but the knowledge of what to and to not cultivate is one of the more valuable things in this world.
 
 
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