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long noob solubility question: ethyl acetate and freebase cactus alks Options
 
someblackguy
#1 Posted : 4/19/2016 12:22:30 AM

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Hello, I'm new here. So new that this is my first post, so I hope that this isn't a "use the search engine" query. I have a very limited understanding of the organic chemistry of extraction and can't seem to find any info about the solubility of freebase trichocereus alkaloids in the solvent ethyl acetate—an ester compound produced in wine fermentation.

Here's all I know:
XlogP is a value which has _something_ (but maybe not everything?) to do the the solubility of a compound in a solvent. The XlogP of mescaline in the "Properties of Psychedelic Compounds" list is given at 0.7, the same as that of ethyl acetate. Mesc fb is soluble in organic solvents with much higher and lower xlogP (xylene 2.5, isopropyl alcohol 0.4) and insoluble in ether which is 0.9 xlogP. Assuming that any of that is accurate info, I still has no idea what that means.

I've heard that the freebase form of mescaline is nonpolar so that it is soluble in solvents like toluene and xylene, but not extremely nonpolar, as it is slightly (edit: "moderately") soluble in water and insoluble in some nonpolar hydrocarbons like light naphtha or cyclohexane*. I also heard-tell that ethyl acetate is also just slightly nonpolar. Forgive the scattered info, I have no idea what I'm talking about, just trying to present everything I know so far.

I've heard that ethyl acetate is toxic, but not extremely so, and not likely dangerous at the level of exposure that might occur during a typical acid/base extraction. I've heard that it's a popular solvent for alkaloid extraction, and is used on a large scale to decaffinate tea and coffee, and I think it's a cleaning solvent as well. I think it reacts with strong acids and bases to produce ethyl alcohol/acetic acid OR sodium acetate (assuming Na+ base) and ethanol. These aren't problematic compounds for the sake of crude extraction, and the reaction happens at a gradual rate which does not prohibit its use as a relatively common solvent for a/b extraction of alks...I think.

I've seen mescaline synthesis procedures that mention crystallizing the final product (maybe freebase?) out of ethyl acetate**, but I'm not sure how applicable that fact is to its use as a solvent for a/b extraction from plant material.

I know that it's more problematic than some other solvents but I have a very specific cactus extraction that calls for it. I need a solvent for cactus alkaloids which is not too toxic, not too expensive, doesn't smell too horribly, and will evaporate readily. In short I need non-soluble ethanol. Isobutanol (which has been tested to have the same absorption spectrum as EtOH of mescaline FB, whatever that means) would be a second choice, but it's slightly more miscible, slightly more expensive, might pull a lot of tar, and evaporate slower:



I would use ethyl acetate like one would d-limo in some of the more popular cactus teks for the following proposed recipe for an edible preparation of cactus medicine:

-Cactus powder is pulled with EtOH/water x3
-evaporated to remove the alcohol, reduce to an aqueous concentrate of small volume
-defat with paraffin wax x1
-base to 12 with lime or lye
-pull w/ethyl acetate x3
-carbonate wash
-evaporate to reduce volume, adding small amounts of dry ethanol to purge all the ethyl acetate
-to the dry** alcohol/freebase, add melted cocoa butter in the amount of one bite size square per 25-50g dry starting material
-evaporate remaining alcohol from cocoa butter with a magnetic stirrer set in a dehydrator on low
-add fine sugar, premium raw and dutched cocoa powder mix, and soy lecithin
-mix to homogeneous (about 12hrs) on low (50C/120F) in dehydrator
-pour into molds, set in the fridge

Freebase cactus alkaloids are said to be caustic/potentially irritating, but so are many essential plant oils (peppermint, oregano, d-limo) which are commonly consumed diluted in foods. While I am speculating about whether this will work, from previous efforts I do KNOW (as opposed to all his thinking) that 1/2g of cactus freebase dissolved in a dark chocolate carrier in a previous trial didn't taste like burning (Simpsons, anybody?). Thankfully it didn't taste that much different than dark chocolate.

**chocolate "seizes" in the presence of water, as the cocoa solids and sugar which are suspended in the fat are moistened and begin to turn to an ugly glob, I he will use dry EtOH add cocoa solids later.

So yeah... help.

editied for clarity: "swim"

added links to sources
*this info (mescaline fb not soluble in cyclohexane) is only informed by scatterd forum posts elsewhere and a single trial experiment I did that indicated that mescaline fb was very slightly if at all soluble in hot cyclohexane
**this statement about the solubility of mescaline fb in ethyl acetate comes from member 69ron "Washing Mescaline" (DMT-Nexus, 2OO9), this post "Trichocereus Panchoi and Mescaline" at another forum from the member psyhco_delic (hipforums, 2008 ) who reports moderate results of a test of ethyl acetate as solvent for cactus fb alks, another post (thevespiary, 2016) also lists EtAc as a solvent for mescaline fb but this was published after this thread)

Spellbreaking is the better part of alchemy, extraction, and the art of undoing—but a cocksure kind of lovingkindness, a clockwork clock, works time.

Nakhig lo shulun, Sharuku! Gorz nash!
“Where is your master? Where is he?”
Mig shâ zog... Undagush! Nakh
Atigat iuk no lighav wizard...
 

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pitubo
#2 Posted : 4/19/2016 11:14:19 AM

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Whoah! Yesterday I met this guy on the bus whom I totally didn't know before and he told me that his cat had a dream and it was somewhere on the internet and there was a sign and it said "no swimming."

 
someblackguy
#3 Posted : 4/19/2016 3:53:42 PM

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Sorry, disregard that previous post altogether. I googled it—turns out the answer is 42.

42, everybody.
Spellbreaking is the better part of alchemy, extraction, and the art of undoing—but a cocksure kind of lovingkindness, a clockwork clock, works time.

Nakhig lo shulun, Sharuku! Gorz nash!
“Where is your master? Where is he?”
Mig shâ zog... Undagush! Nakh
Atigat iuk no lighav wizard...
 
someblackguy
#4 Posted : 6/15/2016 10:00:17 AM

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Dried torch and bridgesii chips (80g)

100g CaOH and a small amount of H2O to cover chips


24 Hrs Later this was manually ground to a paste

Cactus plaster was dehydrated at 115f for 8-10hrs and ground to a fine powder, 1 tsp bentonite (aluminum silicate clay) and 1 tsp alum (aluminum sulfate) were added. This was pulled with EtAc x3.

This was washed with sodium carbonate water, placed into the freezer for 24 hrs, and filtered of precipitates and ice.

...evaporated for 6 hours to yield resin.

Resin was dissolved in 100ml ethyl chloride (medical grade), after which a white precipitate formed:


The ethyl acetate did not seem to pull much at all from the cactus, only a disappointingly faint, urine colored broth that evaporated leaving chlorophyll and some kind of yellow oil. The precipitate that formed after this was dissolved in EtCl (chloroethane poppers) did not appear in the EtAc and may be an insoluble salt remnant from the initial extraction or an artifact of the interaction between the haloalkene and the amine—the HCl salt of some alkaloid.

Overall disappointing but hopeful that some actives are present ether in the greenish liquid or the white precipitate... bioassay will follow soon.

meh...Neutral
Spellbreaking is the better part of alchemy, extraction, and the art of undoing—but a cocksure kind of lovingkindness, a clockwork clock, works time.

Nakhig lo shulun, Sharuku! Gorz nash!
“Where is your master? Where is he?”
Mig shâ zog... Undagush! Nakh
Atigat iuk no lighav wizard...
 
someblackguy
#5 Posted : 6/15/2016 6:39:49 PM

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t+1:30="+2"... active. On first assay there is a subjective distinction between the effects produced by the EtCl extract (dopey, anticholinergic type effects, mildly dissociative) vs those being produced by a subsequent H2O wash of the evaporation dish (distinctly bitter, initial stimulation, leading to visual enmeshment and patterning, body buzz, fleeting ideation, light sensitivity, mild euphoria...)

A more detailed write up will... yeah...Surprised
Spellbreaking is the better part of alchemy, extraction, and the art of undoing—but a cocksure kind of lovingkindness, a clockwork clock, works time.

Nakhig lo shulun, Sharuku! Gorz nash!
“Where is your master? Where is he?”
Mig shâ zog... Undagush! Nakh
Atigat iuk no lighav wizard...
 
Loveall
#6 Posted : 2/9/2021 6:11:06 PM

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Cool stuff. Any more info/update on this approach. I'm also doing tests with ethyl acetate.

Did you check or know if the carbonate wash removed any product?
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someblackguy
#7 Posted : 5/19/2021 10:45:52 PM

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I will try to find my notes and post it to your current thread—which already has some very good info btw.
Spellbreaking is the better part of alchemy, extraction, and the art of undoing—but a cocksure kind of lovingkindness, a clockwork clock, works time.

Nakhig lo shulun, Sharuku! Gorz nash!
“Where is your master? Where is he?”
Mig shâ zog... Undagush! Nakh
Atigat iuk no lighav wizard...
 
 
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