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nausea/vomiting and the purge Options
 
cruisinalltheway
#1 Posted : 11/23/2020 7:07:29 AM

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have had ayahuasca in peru before which was a life changing experience, and was considering trying pharmahuasca with extracted dmt and an extract of rue or caapi.

id like to avoid any sort of nausea and especially the purge if possible. will extract from rue or caapi help in that area?

if not what could i do to avoid it?
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
Nitegazer
#2 Posted : 11/26/2020 4:31:32 PM

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Of course everybody's system is different, but experiencing a purge on pharma is not uncommon-- the harmalas are more the culprit than dmt.

Using relatively purified compounds certainly reduces nausea compared to brews, however. My singular experience with a full spectrum brew was much rougher on my system than any of my pharma experiences.

The main 'tips' that I have come across:
- minimize the amount of harmala dosage in the mix
- consume the harmala and dmt in salt form (rather than freebase)
- take your dosage in a gel cap
- consume with a bit of ginger and/or lemon oil

Happy travels. All be out there later today. Big grin
 
Jagube
#3 Posted : 11/26/2020 5:08:30 PM

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IME the nausea comes from the leaf, not the vine.
Some leaf gives me nausea, some doesn't. A cleaner preparation (e.g. cold soaks) can help here.
I've never felt nausea from just caapi, rue or harmalas; adding the leaf creates the potential for nausea, and the more leaf, the greater the chance of nausea.

FWIW, the purge is often considered a desirable element. But since I don't purge, I can't take a stance on that. I would imagine, however, that nausea and the purge are related.
 
ShamensStamen
#4 Posted : 11/26/2020 5:26:49 PM
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For me, the nausea/vomiting comes from the Harmalas, even pure Harmalas, sure Harmala extracts will lessen nausea, but vomiting can still occur. Extracts are cleaner, so there's less of a chance of nausea/vomiting, but always be prepared in case you do vomit. I've tried everything to counteract the nausea/vomiting, nothing but Limonene or Lemon EO (which Limonene is a main active in Lemon EO so i choose to use pure Limonene) has seemed to help, Limonene/Lemon EO seems to definitely remove the chances of nausea/vomiting even when using the actual plants. Ginger, Peppermint, Zofran, and some others, have not worked for me.

You can try a light to moderate dosage of Harmalas and a moderate to high dosage of DMT, but keep in mind you may still vomit. Too much Harmalas creates a physical purgative effect, too much DMT causes a psychological purge which can then manifest into a physical purge. DMT seems to bring out some of the effects of Harmalas, including the purgative effects, so it's not really the DMT that causes nausea/vomiting, the DMT triggers the Harmala's purgative effects. But plenty of people have purged just from Harmala extracts or Rue seed, Caapi on the other hand, i'm sure in high enough dosages it can cause you to purge by itself but Caapi is generally gentler and less of a purgative than Rue or Rue extracts, i'm thinking because Rue/Rue extracts have Harmaline and Harmaline is a stronger purgative than Harmine, so you might try pure Harmine.

The only for sure way i've ever gotten rid of the nausea/vomiting without the aid of Limonene/Lemon EO is by taking the Harmalas regularly for a few weeks which will build up the reverse tolerance and do away with the side-effects including the nausea/vomiting, but also cleans up the bodyload and reduces motor function impairment.

The only other thing i could recommend would be to use Moclobemide as the MAO-A inhibitor instead of Harmalas, to orally activate DMT, that way, there's no nausea/vomiting although you may still vomit from an intense dosage of DMT but i found it's rare to vomit when using Moclobemide. But, when using Moclobemide, it's no longer the Huasca, but is instead orally active DMT (or the DMT-containing plant if using plants). So i prefer the Harmalas because i'm looking for the Huasca effects, but orally active DMT using Moclobemide can be cool too.
 
Elrik
#5 Posted : 11/26/2020 6:27:32 PM

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There tends to be confusion in many people in the issue of nausea/vomiting and purging.
Vomiting means stuff coming out of your mouth. The purgative effect is blasting the medicine out of your ass. Purging can also be used to describe vomiting, which is what I believe causes the confusion.
Harmalas alone cause minimal to no nausea in reasonable doses, and no diarrhea at any rational dose [I've gone up to a gram of isolated harmine•HCl, it doesnt loosen the bowels even at that dose. Do not take a gram of simple rue harmalas, you wouldn't like that much harmaline.]
DMT alone has never caused vomiting or purging [diarrhea] in me.
Orally consuming harmalas and then smoking DMT can cause nausea and doing so on mescaline can be messy if your not ready. Trust me Laughing But still no purging.
Orally consuming harmalas and then orally consuming DMT is very likely to cause nausea and frequently results in vomiting. I just try to not vomit in the first 60 minutes so I dont loose any of the drug, beyond that I wont fight it. Vomiting will just send you into the peak faster. Still no purging.
Ayahuasca has a TON of tannin. The liquid is saturated with tannin and the mud in aya is precipitated tannic acid and DMT/harmala tannates. Tannins are tissue irritants that your body really cant do anything with, so if there is still lots of tannin in your that your body cant rid itself of by vomiting it tries to flush it out the other end. Promptly. This is the purge, and it is why all other routes spare you the effect.
The purge caused by the caapi tannins is believed by many to be an important component of ayahuascas medicinal action, but it is not psychedelic.

Edit for a practical detail: Get a designated vomit bucket. I have a little bucket I use for all kinds of household and lab things but among its roles is that of my vomit bucket. I spend more time using it to bail coolant for solvent distillation, or hand cleaning small clothing items but this bucket has been with me to see universes Explode! It's been with me as I shattered my mind and put the pieces back together, as I tore open long shut doors letting me rediscover love and beauty so whatever I use it for it will still be my 'vomit bucket'. It and I are friends, and by extension I've come to peace with vomiting. Vomiting is just a frequent part of a wonderful process and it is due a little respect. I never try to vomit but when I do vomit it's just a part of the healing. And I know vomit bucket will be there for me.
Love Vomit Bucket Love
 
Nitegazer
#6 Posted : 11/27/2020 12:54:33 AM

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By way of followup...

I usually go heavier on the harmine, but thought I'd experiment with less, in the spirit of trying a purgeless journey. I weigh 78kg, and in a gel cap took 160mg harmaline and 90mg of DMT fumarate (note: not freebase; a freebase dose would be less) chased with half a banana. When I started to feel the onset of affects, I ate 1/2 tsp of fresh ginger root.

I experienced some stomach discomfort, but did not have nausea, and did not purge. I didn't fight it, it just didn't happen (fighting doesn't help anyways). This was the first time I didn't purge.

I don't think it made the experience any better or worse. Purging can be a very positive experience; it's just a bit, well, stinky, which I can find distracting when immobilized.
 
tatt
#7 Posted : 12/15/2020 2:53:33 PM
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cruisinalltheway wrote:

id like to avoid any sort of nausea and especially the purge if possible. will extract from rue or caapi help in that area?


I've never purged from freebase vine alks, though freebase alks from rue at the same dosage put me very close to grabbing a bucket. Though overall I think I prefer rue alks and extracted dmt over vine alks, personal preference. I prefer to mainly to just brew vine if i'm taking it.

Rue alks/dmt for me has always been beyond jaw dropping in terms of the visual dimension/s, landscape/s I end up in relative to vine alks/dmt.

Though I feel they're two somewhat different experiences, both equally powerful and beyond beautiful.

Best of luck Smile


 
Jees
#8 Posted : 12/15/2020 4:10:00 PM

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cruisinalltheway wrote:
...if not what could i do to avoid it?
Lie very still, this helps a lot.

Pharmahuasca: when there is a part of the experience that I consider not-a-pleasant-feeling more than usually, I don't care too much and go with it for a while, but when I decide that it has been enough like wanting a change of record, then I go vomiting on purpose (finger in throat style just to get it started) and lo and behold 9 out of 10 it really feels like entering another atmosphere of experience after that.

It can be an instrument ally for real, and when I do it then I focus on all misery, sources of sickness, heaviness, not just for me but for all and the world, I drag it into my vomit session and symbolize vomiting it out. You'll feel extremely exhausted after but that restores fastly. One can load the simple act with meaning and purpose. As said, the success rate is speaking for itself, it near always shifts the experience for the better. But then it is not about a premature purge, yet more intensity galore.
I've seen the most terrible horrific yuck coming out, not reproduce-able by any other means Laughing . I'm not alone, have seen bitumen alike sticky mass from others, god knows what that kinds stuff is.

 
Tomtegubbe
#9 Posted : 12/15/2020 4:21:36 PM

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Do you have any ideas on how to force vomiting besides fingers in the throat? I've experienced the euphoria after throwing up, but usually I just can't do it.
 
Jees
#10 Posted : 12/15/2020 5:47:57 PM

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Tomtegubbe wrote:
Do you have any ideas on how to force vomiting besides fingers in the throat? I've experienced the euphoria after throwing up, but usually I just can't do it.
Make some aya brew vine only (no light bearing plants), evap volume enough so it starts to become more viscous, it is simply an emetic in all of it's own rights.

More watery caapi brew is possible (less concentrated) but then one has to drink just more of it. I've never had that kind myself though.

I'd rather drink a caapi emetic shot than a rue based emetic shot, all that bark tannins works a treat and is 'medicine' after all. There will be that sickening stage though but all will clear up after....

Thinking of it: there are the caapi brew pastes, thick concentrated pastes, to be diluted to make it drinkable. Never had those but sounds like a good instant solution to have at hand.

I've heard of lukewarm water + salt to work also but I've no experience with that, curious what others have to say.
 
bismillah
#11 Posted : 12/16/2020 12:36:26 AM

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My only advice is to suck on some ginger and lie back on something soft, preferably at a slight incline. I have never thrown up on any oral brew, although sometimes I felt like I got close. I think that's just part of the experience and there's no way to make it go away. Regardless, just keep a bucket handy.
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downwardsfromzero
#12 Posted : 12/16/2020 10:00:24 PM

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Jees wrote:
I've heard of lukewarm water + salt to work also but I've no experience with that, curious what others have to say.
I've used this (with HBWR) and it was highly effective. I had real trouble getting any vomit out on ayahuasca. I'm rather a... downward purger (no pun intended).
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Jees
#13 Posted : 12/17/2020 9:10:37 PM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
Jees wrote:
I've heard of lukewarm water + salt to work also but I've no experience with that, curious what others have to say.
I've used this (with HBWR) and it was highly effective. I had real trouble getting any vomit out on ayahuasca. I'm rather a... downward purger (no pun intended).
Do you happen to remember the salt concentration/volume used? It seems to be very personal how one reacts.

After some googling some mention about a salt poisoning possibility if the purge stays out, worth noting.
Some mention that drinking some salt can alleviate nausea as a side effect. Bonus.
 
doubledog
#14 Posted : 12/18/2020 10:10:51 AM

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Btw Salt water is used in yoga cleansing procedure called Shankhaprakshalana, which is really effective purging exercise.
 
 
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