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Question about Death Cap mushroom Amanita Phalloides Options
 
Mitakuye Oyasin
#1 Posted : 6/22/2018 1:24:49 AM

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I have a very specific question about the Death Cap mushroom Amanita Phalloides. We know that both Amanita Muscaria and Amanita Pantherina will "resurrect" from a completely dried (presumably dead) state to a living state with the ability to multiply when placed in grape juice. The mushroom will use the grape juice as food and create the fleece or living bread. You can research this amazing ability of the Amanita mushroom to create the Holy Grail or Sacred Wine online. One good resource is http://ambrosiasociety.org/

Here is my question. Does anyone know if the Amanita Phalloides or Death Cap mushroom has this same ability to "resurrect" in fruit juice? My hope if that it does not have this ability and that could be one way to tell the difference between a deadly mushroom and an edible psychoactive one.

Any information would be appreciated. Thanks.
Let us declare nature to be legitimate. All plants should be declared legal, and all animals for that matter. The notion of illegal plants and animals is obnoxious and ridiculous.
— Terence McKenna


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
Mitakuye Oyasin
#2 Posted : 6/25/2018 5:30:05 AM

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Anyone here into Amanitas?
Let us declare nature to be legitimate. All plants should be declared legal, and all animals for that matter. The notion of illegal plants and animals is obnoxious and ridiculous.
— Terence McKenna


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
downwardsfromzero
#3 Posted : 6/25/2018 6:01:44 PM

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My reckoning is that some mushrooms of many genera will have this ability and only practical experiment would provide the data.

It would be better if A. phalloides and similar amatoxin-producing species were not on the list but it would appear we simply don't know.

Quote:
Anyone here into Amanitas?

I've kept some powdered fly agarics for a coulpe of decades now and never got round to testing them. It would be interesting to see if they "resurrect" after that long time period.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Mitakuye Oyasin
#4 Posted : 6/25/2018 9:40:29 PM

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"I've kept some powdered fly agarics for a coulpe of decades now and never got round to testing them. It would be interesting to see if they "resurrect" after that long time period."

Yes it would. Check out the videos on the Ambrosia website of Amanitas coming back to life and creating the bread of life when exposed to fruit juice. None of the psilocybin containing mushrooms have this ability.
Let us declare nature to be legitimate. All plants should be declared legal, and all animals for that matter. The notion of illegal plants and animals is obnoxious and ridiculous.
— Terence McKenna


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
downwardsfromzero
#5 Posted : 6/25/2018 10:37:53 PM

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Quote:
None of the psilocybin containing mushrooms have this ability.

That's a real shame. I've tried resurrecting psilocybin mushrooms from powder (not with juice) and can confirm that none of my attempts has been successful to date.


So, with the Amanitas is it any real fruit juice or is grape juice preferable?
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Mitakuye Oyasin
#6 Posted : 6/25/2018 10:41:43 PM

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Grape juice seems to be the preference for those who have tried. I'm sure other fruit juices would work, but I'm unsure about how important the pH level is to the process. Citrus juice might be too much.
Let us declare nature to be legitimate. All plants should be declared legal, and all animals for that matter. The notion of illegal plants and animals is obnoxious and ridiculous.
— Terence McKenna


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
null24
#7 Posted : 6/26/2018 2:57:52 AM

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Interesting topic.

My guess is that it is the sugars in the juice, and the instruction to use grape juice is because of Xian connections. I'm pretty sure that in Christian churches that use a sacrament -i.e. Catholic and Episcopal-they use grape juice in place of wine. Or it could possibly be because grape juice could be thought of as unfermented wine.

Haven't watched the link, but have seen the site, it is very religious in nature, obviously.

It's all good if you want to look at it this way, personally I just see it as superstition in a new gown and outside of some entertaining but most likely false speculations about the history of Christianity- and if i recall, some pretty cool art on the site- a waste of time on any real level.

"Bread of Life" is not a mycology term I'm familiar with. If you're wanting to talk about cultivation with this technique, now that's interesting, but could we veer away from the site specific religious terminology, please? What is the bread of life? A live culture of a. muscaria is my guess?

Btw, I'm a big fan of them, but mostly just enjoy hunting them.
null24 attached the following image(s):
PicsArt_06-25-06.57.03.jpg (32kb) downloaded 124 time(s).
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Mitakuye Oyasin
#8 Posted : 6/26/2018 7:22:15 PM

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Yes, I believe that the fruit juice is creating a live culture of either a. muscaria or a. pantherina. What I am curious about is will this same thing happen with a dried version of the a. Phalloides or death cap mushroom. I am hoping the answer is no, but I have no verification of this one way or the other yet. Thanks for your interest in this.
Let us declare nature to be legitimate. All plants should be declared legal, and all animals for that matter. The notion of illegal plants and animals is obnoxious and ridiculous.
— Terence McKenna


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
null24
#9 Posted : 6/27/2018 3:38:15 PM

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Mitakuye Oyasin wrote:
I am hoping the answer is no, but I have no verification of this one way or the other yet. Thanks for your interest in this.


Why? Would that confirm a bias for you that a muscaria is somehow 'divine'?.
Sine experientia nihil sufficienter sciri potest -Roger Bacon
*γνῶθι σεαυτόν*
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Mitakuye Oyasin
#10 Posted : 6/27/2018 8:38:43 PM

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null24 Why do you assume I think anything is "divine?" Just trying to find out if the death cap mushroom will create the same live culture with fruit juice as A. muscaria or A. pantherina. Leave your assumptions for somewhere else.
Let us declare nature to be legitimate. All plants should be declared legal, and all animals for that matter. The notion of illegal plants and animals is obnoxious and ridiculous.
— Terence McKenna


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
null24
#11 Posted : 6/28/2018 4:48:07 PM

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Mitakuye Oyasin wrote:
null24 Why do you assume I think anything is "divine?" Just trying to find out if the death cap mushroom will create the same live culture with fruit juice as A. muscaria or A. pantherina. Leave your assumptions for somewhere else.

Ah, i guess i read into your posts something that wasn't there. Assumptions as you said. If that is so, please accept this apology. I wanted to move the discussion out of superstitionif that was where it was going since it did potentially contain good novel info.

I read it in the religiosity of the wording of your posts.

I took away from your posts that your hypothesis was that if a muscaria "created the living bread" or whatever ( instead of simply live culture), and phalloides did nut, that it would demonstrate a special quality of muscaria that is relative to the religious/sacred nature attributed to them by the website and verbiage on it that you cited.

Since you couched your question within this context. I took it that it aligned with your world view and i find religiosity to be anathema to scientific discussion. I do recognize that a foundation of awareness of an invisible and immeasurable matrix that we as humans exist within, with our minds and bodies reflections of the in between state that we exist in cognitively is crucial to living a meaningful life. However i also feel that when we try to describe it and assign certain anthropomorphic attributions, all we do is (to paraphrase a man whose name i forgot whose wit is sharper than mine) is F the ineffable.
Sine experientia nihil sufficienter sciri potest -Roger Bacon
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Mitakuye Oyasin
#12 Posted : 6/28/2018 8:04:19 PM

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Thanks null24, much appreciated. Personally I do not like most organized religions. I think they are more divisive than inclusive. I have always been drawn to Native American spirituality more so than any of the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam or any of their offshoots or subdivisions.) I always questioned and rejected the Christianity that I was brought up with. I probably should have couched my question in a more scientific manner to avoid any confusion about religious association. I'll keep that in mind for future posts. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

My main concern is that the death cap mushroom is obviously really bad news for humans to ingest. I am hoping that it will not create a live culture in fruit juice like the A. Muscaria and A. Pantherina do so that humans are not accidentally exposed to these poisons.
Let us declare nature to be legitimate. All plants should be declared legal, and all animals for that matter. The notion of illegal plants and animals is obnoxious and ridiculous.
— Terence McKenna


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
Nicita
#13 Posted : 6/28/2018 8:43:12 PM

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Mitakuye Oyasin wrote:
that could be one way to tell the difference between a deadly mushroom and an edible psychoactive one.


It is a really really bad idea trying to make such a critical ID based on something like this.
Learn the characteristics of both species, ID the fruit body and only use it if you are absolutely certain of what you have.

Never ever ingest any mushroom that you can't identify for certain.

Also, even if Amanita phalloides did usually not regrow from dried tissue, there would always be the chance of some spores germinating.
 
AliRadicali
#14 Posted : 11/21/2020 3:18:05 PM
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Nicita wrote:
Mitakuye Oyasin wrote:
that could be one way to tell the difference between a deadly mushroom and an edible psychoactive one.


It is a really really bad idea trying to make such a critical ID based on something like this.
Learn the characteristics of both species, ID the fruit body and only use it if you are absolutely certain of what you have.

Never ever ingest any mushroom that you can't identify for certain.

Also, even if Amanita phalloides did usually not regrow from dried tissue, there would always be the chance of some spores germinating.

I think that's the more plausible explanation for the reviving amanita phenomenon: dormant spores getting activated and growing a new mycelium when they come into contact with the fruit juice. From the video it didn't look to me like the dried mushroom itself came back to life, it just soaked up a bit of the liquid and then new mycelium started sprouting from the cap, where one would expect to find some leftover spores. If this is indeed what we're seeing then other species of mushroom should be able to replicate it. Of course the method of drying might impact whether the spores survive, I.E. using heat would probably hurt the spores.

I concur with Nicita, if you can't tell visually whether you're dealing with a death cap or a muscaria/pantherina, don't eat it!

 
dithyramb
#15 Posted : 11/21/2020 9:16:51 PM

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The amanita fleece seems to have been proven to be a mold rather than amanita mycelium... And the drink is being questioned about whether it really replicates the amanita experience or if it is even safe.

https://forum.amanitares...h.com/viewtopic.php?t=35
 
downwardsfromzero
#16 Posted : 11/22/2020 9:12:00 PM

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Possible, hypothetical twist:
Amanita muscaria ends up being found to contain an endomycotic symbiont, a mould which is responsible for ibotenic acid production and can be cultivated in grape juice.

I'm not saying this is true or even likely, but it occurred to me as a possibility nevertheless. Someone said something similar on the ambrosia soc forum, so I guess it's a pretty obvious quip.

More realistically, the Mucor fleece could be producing any of an endless number of potential neurotoxins as metabolites, some of which may have effects similar to muscimol/ibotenic acid. The only sensible approach is to get thorough chemical analyses done on the fermentation products.

I'll be leaving this experiment up to some other interested party.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
dithyramb
#17 Posted : 11/22/2020 9:57:20 PM

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Seems like a sound hypothesis. I will also be watching any research done on this.
 
rOm
#18 Posted : 11/23/2020 7:31:00 PM

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null24,I read this question as safety concern, if someone misindetified amanitamsuc. or panth. and made the fleece ( or grape juice culture ), and did in fact used phalloïds, the question was, would this even work ?
Ok, we don't know the answer, so better not drink from some sketchy non certified shroom hunter. Or do it at your own risks !
Now inall fairness I don'tthinkthat doing some fleece is some usualy practice such as say,sharing weed or wine / beers.
But as for sharing amanita I always been show the dried specimen before ingesting them.
I wouldn't try a white or like washed looking amanita.
Now I'm not really sure at all the "fleece" is really amanita muscaria mycelium, and therefore contain or produce even ibotenic acid and muscimol in subsequent quantities and qualities but am not making any, if some doing it could analyze them or send them for analyzes am sure we couldbe a group of people interested and covering all the expense of a GC/MS analysis in due form.
PM me if you are familiar with the fleece.

Kind regard,

PS : NUll24 AGain, the terminology and recipes were taken out of the ambrosia society,thats how thety named it. so sorry if it irritates you to sort of take some biblical word to obfvisouly make them incarnated into some sort of fungi thing, but it'snot a big deal, if I said you crossed boundaries, you may also misinterpret it and say that it is very christian to talk about cross. it's all semantic and I do'nt think anyone is trying to do proselitism here.
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