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Harmalas for Hypertension Options
 
King Tryptamine
#1 Posted : 9/11/2020 1:27:30 AM

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I was doing a little reading about the effects that harmala alkaloids have on the human body, primarily harmine, harmaline and harmalol. Looking at the cardiovascular effects of the three compounds, they all seem to produce vasorelaxation with rank order of relaxation potency, harmine > harmaline > harmalol. The primary mechanism for this being increased release of nitrous oxide from endothelial cells that line the internal surface of blood vessels. Another mechanism being attributed to their antiadrenergic interaction with the alpha 1-adrenergic receptors found on the vascular smooth muscle that form the blood vessel walls, controlling blood flow via contraction and relaxation. I'm assuming that the three harmala alkaloids function as either a antagonist or inverse agonist in this case? Anyway it is by these mechanisms are harmine, harmaline and harmalol able to decrease systemic arterial blood pressure and total peripheral resistance. In addittion to these effects there are also:

- Bradycardia.
- Increased cardiac contractile force and therefore pulse pressure.
- Increased velocity of aortic blood flow.
- Angiogenic inhibitory effects.

Looking at all these various cardiovascular effects and the mechanisms behind them it would seem that at first glance the harmala alkaloids could be beneficial in treating conditions such as high blood pressure and preventing CVD in those who are at high risk. However these are often always chronic medical conditions and I'm not sure if chronically dosing harmalas for a long period of time would be such a good idea. On the other hand using harmalas to treat acute high blood pressure during stressors like exercise for example might actually be a feasible idea IMO. Just my take on things, do with it what you want!

P.S. I'm not too sure how increased pulse pressure and peak aortic flow contribute to hypertension.

Reference - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih...mc/articles/PMC3841998/

 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
Elrik
#2 Posted : 9/11/2020 9:33:03 AM

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Just be aware that adding psychedelics to the harmalas may make them raise blood pressure instead Wink
That happens to me with mescaline + harmalas, I haven't noticed it with oral DMT + harmalas but I usually don't test blood pressure so I don't have a wealth of data.

THH has a much more useful pharmacokinetic profile, it stays in the blood longer. If you were to actually try to hold your blood pressure lower throughout a 24 hour period 2 doses of THH would maintain blood levels as well as something like 6 or 8 doses of harmaline.
When I'm sober I have great blood pressure so I haven't compared them.

Harmalol is the intermediary metabolite of harmaline. When you eat harmaline it turns into harmalol before being peed out and harmalol actually stays in the blood longer than harmaline.
Harmines intermediary metabolite is harmol. These are following a very old naming convention that I think leaves THH's metabolite being called harmalidol.

It's much more effective to lower blood pressure by radically improving the diet.
 
King Tryptamine
#3 Posted : 9/13/2020 1:02:54 AM

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Elrik wrote:
Just be aware that adding psychedelics to the harmalas may make them raise blood pressure instead Wink
That happens to me with mescaline + harmalas, I haven't noticed it with oral DMT + harmalas but I usually don't test blood pressure so I don't have a wealth of data.


That's a good point, it's important to note that the harmala alkaloids will also work against themselves by increasing the half life and bioavailability of psychedelic drugs such as DMT and perhaps mescaline, both of which induce moderate vasoconstriction that'll override any hypotensive effects produced by the harmaloids.
 
AiL762
#4 Posted : 9/13/2020 4:53:32 AM

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Wow I was always so hesitant about doing harmalas because I thought it did raise your pressure with the addition to the psychedelics.

Had to reread some stuff prior to commenting. All that speed reading screwed me on this one as now I stand corrected that the only issue is avoiding the Tyramine for the blood pressure. I would've done pharmahuasca sooooo many times if I knew the correction of this.

I for one have been working on my diet since I finally felt comfortable to experiment with DMT. It gave me the wake up call I needed as it had gotten to the point of almost needing medication. Was sitting around the 160's, now im finally down to mid 130's if I really try to relax, in as short as just a couple months. I'm sure would've never got so high and would be even lower now if I didnt smoke heavily, but yeah ill pass on that recommendation.

Don't mean to thread jack by any means, but does anyone know if taking syrian rue on the regular can have adverse effects? Any tolerance build up? I feel as most I find on google can be really misleading from so much anti-drug standpoints.

Since I saw this posted the other day I tried and read up some more on it and I'm tempted to do a very frequent month test. Maybe like 1 day on 1 day off to see what kind of improvements I may have in addition to the dieting.

Just would really like to some pros or cons anyone can point out before I do something stupid. Or better yet, I would greatly appreciate the help of this forum to try to work out a safe supplemental routine and report back my findings.

I'm willing to deal with the nausea if it means improving my health imo. I never worked out on psychedelics before, but I wonder if doing a lite 30min treadmill or stationary bike cardio workout during the experience would help as well? Obviously cardio helps with the blood pressure long term.

Just throwing out ideas as popping in my head and pretty much branching off your thoughts in the OP, please shut me down if I'm suggesting anything overboard and potentially could be really dangerous and dumb!

 
King Tryptamine
#5 Posted : 9/13/2020 4:30:57 PM

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@AiL762

Harmalas do increase your blood pressure if taken in conjunction with a psychedelic, especially a tryptamine like DMT for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Regarding the tyramine, harmala alkaloids act as a RIMA which in short means that dietary restrictions shouldn't be necessary. However as Elrik pointed out earlier, improving your diet among other lifestyle changes such as giving up smoking and exercising regularly is also a very effective way to reduce your BP with solid science backing it up.

Long-term syrian rue usage, from what I've researched on the net doesn't seem to pose any major concerns. When it comes to tolerance build up the opinions are more divided. Some people think it creates a reverse tolerance and others a build up. Me personally I believe the latter to be true since nearly all the drugs I know of produce a tolerance to some degree. I like to apply Le Chatelier's principle to the brain such that when a change is made to it (in this case a neurochemical change) the brain will alter itself in such a way to reduce the change being made to it by the foreign molecule. Normally this is done by increasing MAO's, decreasing or altering receptor sites, increasing number of monoamine transporters, etc...

Lastly exercising on psychedelics seems to me to be a detrimental strain on the entire cardiovascular system, especially the heart for the same reasons working out on strong stimulants is. These substances produce tachycardia and moderate-strong vasoconstriction, thereby further increasing your heart and bodies oxygen demand but reducing it's ability to supply that demand. This could cause serious problems in the long term and maybe even increase your risk of developing cardiovascular disease. I wouldn't exercise on anything stronger than a coffee personally.

P.S. Congratulations on lowering your BP! That's a pretty huge drop too keep up the good work and as far as I'm concerned if you're talking about a subtopic of the topic you ain't off-topic Cool
 
ShamensStamen
#6 Posted : 9/13/2020 8:11:41 PM
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Yeah there's no Tyramine interactions, i've worked with Rue/Harmalas extensively/regularly, taking them daily/near daily for 4 years straight, then for 8 months straight, then for another 8 months straight pretty much. There doesn't seem to be any withdrawal effects or dependency, and there is in fact a reverse tolerance, which means that when Harmalas are consumed regularly, like daily or a few times a week, each dose gets stronger, so you become more sensitive to it or the bioavailability increases or the dosage increases from taking the same dosage. Also with regular use, the side-effects go away after a bit, so no more nausea or vomiting, the body load cleans up, the motor function impairment is reduced which makes it more functional/manageable, and as you get into heavier Harmala territory it feels a lot cleaner, like you can still tell the dosage is increasing but things are cleaning up. There is no tolerance to the effects of Harmalas except for the side-effects, the beneficial effects/properties stick around.
 
AiL762
#7 Posted : 9/13/2020 8:54:12 PM

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Wait, now I'm lost.

Youre telling me the constant disclaimers of the Tyramine dont apply?

Why is that? Is it simply a side effect of simply the pharama pill vesions of MAOi's? I know those are supposed to be a lot stronger and very dangerous.

Either way, please let this be true. Because damn, I have been missing out simply on the fact that I STRONGLY enjoy soy based products and so avoiding eatting Sushi, and etc has made me want to almost never do a MAOi. I personally dont care and could avoid eatting or drinking everything else just to be on the safe side.

After experimenting with Salvia a lot I strongly understand the reverse tolerance effect, and how I got plunged into ego death and almost stronger intensity on almost half my initial dosing. so wouldnt find it surprising at all.

But yeah I saw what you said about the tryptamine increase, this experiment I plan to not take anything, except maybe I will take shrooms or do DMT once a week or every 2 weeks. More to see if safely tripping on 3-5g of syrian rue for an extended period of time will speed up the process of fixing my blood pressure.

I'm all for the belief in the healing properties of these substances so feel I will have many positives to report back. I would love to hear more of your experience Stamen!

I absolutely will avoid the exercising while on it as you recommended King. I definitely can see that being something not worth the risk at all. I'll just continue to exercise on the off days.

So depending on how I feel after the initial day, I will continue 1 on 1 off, or I might go 1 on 2 off.

Just ordered a kilo of seeds the other day so hopefully by next weekend I can start this process.

Kinda very excited Very happy
 
King Tryptamine
#8 Posted : 9/13/2020 11:32:49 PM

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@AiL762

When it comes to MAOI's there exists a couple of varieties. Harmine and harmaline are classified as reversible inhibitors of monoamine oxidase A (RIMA) which is a sub category of MAOI. One which selectively binds to and inhibits the function of monamaine oxidase A (MAO-A) over monoamine oxidase B (MAO-B). Both enzymes are responsible for metabolizing tyramine but since the harmala alkaloids bind selectivly to MAO-A over MAO-B, the latter enzyme is still left free to break down tyramine so that the risk of a hypertensive crises occurring after ingesting tyramine rich foods is reduced.

On top of this harmine and harmaline bind reversibly to MAO-A. Meaning that in the presance of tyramine the harmala alkaloids will be displaced from the enzymes active site by tyramine allowing for it's breakdown by MAO-A as well as MAO-B. It is because of this reversibility and selectivity to the MAO-A enzyme that the risk of having a tyramine mediated hypertensive crises is reduced in comparison to MAOI's which bind to both A and B enzymes irreversibly.

I just wanna say I ain't bold enough to say that you should use harmalas to lower your blood pressure on a long term basis, all i'm saying is looking at the cardiovascular effects it induces it could be beneficial for acute stressors like exercise which temporarily raise your BP. It goes without saying that if you have a serious medical concern the NHS or whatever your countries equivalent is your answer. One of the reasons for this post was to speculate if there are other ways in which harmalas could be used beyond DMT potentiation looking at the medical literature available.
 
ShamensStamen
#9 Posted : 9/13/2020 11:43:29 PM
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What King said about the RIMA vs MAOI and Tyramine ^

 
AiL762
#10 Posted : 9/14/2020 12:26:07 AM

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Amazing! Thank you so much for the quick education. Thats fascinating stuff and EXTREMELY eases my mind now with my mental preparations for the future.

Just to clarify, I for one am not saying my sole purpose of attempting this is for lowering my blood pressure, but I been wanting to attempt and explore using strictly caapi or etc for spiritual reasons for some time now as found some of the southern Shaman tribes in the Amazon consider it to be the main teacher plant and the inclusion of DMT for Ayahuasca tends to cloud the experience in their opinions.

I hadn't attempted simply for the hypertension issues I had and the fear of the tyramine.

I do not recommend anyone to follow my journey, but I for one have been failed miserably by western medicinal practices as I talked about on my intro essay to here. Over 6 years straight battling extreme suicidal urges, and ignorant conflicting prescriptions that shouldve killed me in my sleep or put me into a deep coma every night during that time frame. So since then I had went cold turkey on all that crap and seeked pure plant medicines for my ailments specifically psychedlics and within less than 6months I have become a completely changed man on so many levels.

Edit:

Deleted others and cleaned up this post to stay relevant. Were right, was getting way off topic. Sorry about that.
 
ShamensStamen
#11 Posted : 9/14/2020 1:32:28 AM
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One thing though, it's not that the DMT clouds the experience, the DMT is what provides the experience, but the Harmalas are the most important factor as it's the Harmala side of things that provides a lot of the main teachings and experience but without the DMT there isn't really much of an experience. In my own experience of working with this stuff, and having taken Harmalas with and without DMT, i can say that there's medicinal, mental and spiritual value in the Harmalas themselves, but the real deal is with DMT in the mix, at least ime/imo. Though you don't really need too much DMT. Here in the west people tend to see the DMT as the primary ingredient, but it's really the Harmalas that's the primary ingredient, DMT is secondary but still very important to the equation. I find it's best to go for a low to moderate dosage of the DMT and using the Harmalas to potentiate it, so that you find yourself in higher to heavier Harmala territory with just enough DMT to "light the way" and bring out the Harmala teachings. Not to say that DMT doesn't have it's own things to offer, it does, but as they say here at the Nexus, the Harmalas are the force, the DMT is the light, you want to focus more on the Harmalas, but using the DMT to "light the way" and illuminate the Harmala teachings.

Each has their preference though, some people put more emphasis on the DMT, some put more emphasis on the Harmalas, both routes have their usefulness, but me personally, i started out thinking it was all about the DMT, but then i realized and learned that while DMT is very important, the Harmalas are more important. Harmalas on their own without DMT in the mix, have been beneficial in some ways, but it's nothing like what i get with some DMT in the mix.

There's no doubt reasons for why the traditional people in South America tend to go heavy on the Harmalas and light on the DMT, that's true Aya imo, but at the end of the day Aya is what you make of it and there's plenty of different ways to use it, various reasons to use it for, various combinations and plant admixtures, it really is a kind of art or craft and a practice, it's probably one of the most versatile and variable medicines there is.

For me personally, i'm of the opinion that one doesn't need a shaman, sure it could be nice to have a shaman, to practice their ways of doing things, to have their knowledge and guidance and wisdom, but it's in some ways better to form your own relationship to the medicine and go along your own path, learn your own teachings, go where the plants and your own body, mind and soul/spirit take you personally. I keep telling people that because that's what i feel, but lots of people out there are convinced (i would more correctly say fooling themselves) that the shaman's way is the better way, i say, do what you feel is best for you, all you really need are you, the plants, and the time/dedication/effort to practice, experiment, learn, observe, and let things unravel for you. At the end of the day, it's between us and the plants, we don't need any outside influence unless we choose or feel the need to have that, if you're serious about it and follow it, you pretty much have all you need right within yourself. Not to say that outside influence or other people's knowledge/insights/wisdom/teachings can't be helpful, it can be, but at least for me if i can do it myself and learn what's right and appropriate for and applies to my life, without outside help, that's what i do and i've done pretty good on my own. Some may require outside help, there's nothing wrong with that, but people should realize that nobody is perfect and nobody should be looked up to or treated as a guru or somehow more advanced, or superior, as they say the best "gurus" are the ones who bring you back to yourself and who don't put importance on themselves.
 
ShamensStamen
#12 Posted : 9/14/2020 11:13:44 PM
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Yeah again i'm not saying that Harmala-only doesn't have something to offer, i think it has it's benefits and there's ime some spiritual stuff there, but at least ime with as much as i've consumed both Harmalas-only and Harmalas+DMT, i'd have to say the real gold is indeed the combination, although that doesn't stop the Harmala aspect from being the more important aspect. Both the Harmalas and the DMT are very important, but the priority should imo be on the Harmala side with the DMT being secondary, but the synergy between the two is where the real teachings come from. Again, Harmalas for the main portion, DMT to light the way and illuminate the Harmala's teachings. Like i said, there's multiple ways one could go about working with this stuff, and that's one reason i like it so much because you can tweak/alter it to your liking and purpose, but true Huasca (regardless if you're using Caapi, Rue, or extracts) is high to heavy on the Harmala side, and a bit light on the DMT side, plus when you're using higher Harmala dosages even a little bit of DMT can go a long way due to the potentiation. A general rule of thumb is, the more Harmalas you use, the less DMT you'll need, the less Harmalas you use, the more DMT you'll need.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if one has access to an alternative MAO-A inhibitor, like Moclobemide for example, one can use that to orally activate DMT, and see what oral DMT itself has to offer without the Harmala aspects being in the mix. Harmalas have other properties aside from mere MAO-A inhibition, whereas Moclobemide purely inhibits MAO-A and is pretty transparent on the body so all you really end up feeling is the rise in Serotonin and Noradrenaline, maybe a little Dopamine, from the MAO-A inhibition, and then whatever effects/properties the DMT or DMT-containing plant induces. Without the Harmala aspects in the mix, you can see how different the oral DMT experience is compared to the Huasca experience, and how important the Harmala aspect is to the overall experience/kind of medicine you get when using the Huasca. Oral DMT using Moclobemide, while it still has some of it's own stuff to offer, no doubt, it seems kinda hollow compared to the Huasca experience, they are two different kinds of experiences although you can definitely notice some similarities.

Personally for me, i haven't dove much into other medicinal plants or admixture plants, but one plant that i almost always include with my Aya now, or any other Psychedelic, is Lemon Balm, it adds some relaxation to things, helps reduce some anxiety and panic, and helps smooth out the come up, and adds a nice "flavor/color" to the overall experience. I highly recommend trying it out, 3 to 4.5 grams of dried Lemon Balm leaf steeped in hot water for 15 minutes, filtered/strained, sweetened if desired and consumed at the same time as the Psychedelic, works wonders, ime. Another thing you can try with Aya, is separating the Harmalas and the DMT, timing it right, and then like sip on the DMT tea drinking it all within 10 to 20 minutes, that'll also help reduce the intensity during the come up, which i liked. I also smoke Tobacco, and used to smoke Cannabis, during my Aya experiences, each has their own specific synergy with the Aya, but Tobacco definitely seems to have some sort of synergy which i find almost necessary to get certain effects out of the medicine, and so i think i understand at least one reason why the shamans use Tobacco during their ceremonies. I haven't tried proper Tobacco snuff yet, so i just stick to smoked Tobacco. But as far as admixture plants go when working with Aya, there's a whole multitude of different plants, and even some supplements, out there that can be mixed with Aya to get different things out of it, it's certainly intriguing and worth experimenting around with if one feels the curiosity to do so.

Another thing worth checking out is Psilohuasca, using mushrooms (or 4-ACO-DMT) with the Harmalas, it gives a very similar experience to Ayahuasca, but slightly different. Also something to keep in mind is that Harmala extracts vs Harmala plants have their differences as well, personally i prefer the Harmala-containing plants over extracts, as it provides a fuller experience and offers a bit more than the extracts do, but as far as the Psychedelic side of things goes, i feel like as long as one uses the Harmala-containing plants, one can certainly get away with using a pure/isolated Psychedelic like extracted DMT or 4-ACO-DMT for a full experience. The most important aspect ime seems to be focused on the Harmalas, with the plants offering a different kind of experience than the extracts, and vice versa, it just depends on what you feel you're wanting out of it i guess.
 
King Tryptamine
#13 Posted : 9/18/2020 4:36:33 AM

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Alright I hate to be that guy but these posts are going a tad bit off topic such that the posts no longer fit the title. So before it gets taken down by a mod or the admin can we please stay on topic guys. Muchas gracias!
 
AiL762
#14 Posted : 9/19/2020 5:06:56 PM

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King Tryptamine wrote:
Alright I hate to be that guy but these posts are going a tad bit off topic such that the posts no longer fit the title. So before it gets taken down by a mod or the admin can we please stay on topic guys. Muchas gracias!


Yeah sorry about that I cleaned up since your post.

I do have something relevant though. I was sitting on avg 149/101-156/111ish. Spiking in the high 160s again.

Been trying this for a few days of adding a daily syrium rue tea. Cut down on cigarettes almost entirely. Limited a lot of salt. Eatting more dark chocolate, beets, pomegranate, pistachios..

and initial things noticed was from the upper sys reading, yesterday during the lite syrian tea I made have got it down to think was 117/98 So very significant!

Pulse went down a bit too. Oddly enough what didn't seem to effect was the lower Dia reading. That stayed the same and high.

Overall for such a short period of time my pressure is now at 129/84.

So my guess on whats going on is the medicine is allowing my heart to rest and the healthier choices are getting a chance to do more work in improving the heart. I expect great things continuing this process.
 
King Tryptamine
#15 Posted : 9/19/2020 6:23:40 PM

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@AiL762

I took some readings of my blood pressure too, both before and after dosing ~200mg of freebase harmalas at 5pm and the results were rather dramatic. What surprised me the most is how rapid the decrease was, the initial results recorded:

Date and time - 14/9 - 3:45pm
Sys - 129
Dia - 82
Pulse - 71

6hrs later the readings averaged 113/81 (sys/dia) and 68 for pulse 5hrs into the harmala dose. As you can see there was a significant drop in systolic BP but the bottom reading wasn't affected much. Slight drop in pulse. If you notice these results are not dissimilar to yours, so we got some consistence. I also wanna add that i had coffee and cannabis present in my system at the time. The coffee was taken at about the time of the initial reading and 2 joints smoked in between the initial and final reading. So these substances are more than likely to have contributed to the final results.

P.S. Thanks for cleaning up the thread Love
 
 
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