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Phragmites Research Options
 
king.tryptamine
#21 Posted : 6/21/2020 6:27:13 PM

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dithyramb wrote:
Hey king t. Thanks for your report.

Was this th first time you had failure with phragmites?

Did you harvest from a different spot or from reeds of different growth phase than usual?

Were they submerged in water?


This is only my second failure with phragmites. I did a few things differently this time, and a lot of the conditions were different too.

I harvested in the evening, and I had to wait longer for the plants to grow to their typical phase this time. I don't know why. It was in the same spot, but 2 years later. They weren't submerged.

I think I need to mix the solution more during the pulls. It seems like when an emulsion forms, it pulls better. I also am curious about how the alkaloid content varies over a several year period. I am going to stick to harvesting in the mornings too.
 

Trippy glass for trippy people.
 
dithyramb
#22 Posted : 7/17/2020 2:05:26 AM

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Hey everyone. I have bioassayed a crude extract of rhizomes with rue and it was a success.

I was able to get the opportunity to boil the rhizomes about a month after harvesting. It did not dry out completely in this time and started to show signs of mold.

I worked my way up to 200 fresh grams which turned out to be more than I needed but luckily the spirit turned out to be gentle.

There were no side effects.

It had the basic "poaceae" feel which I have become familiar with through various phalaris species.

Very open, fluid, energizing and arousing.

Not stimulating like P. aquatica; my heart rate / blood pressure remained normal all the way. No vasoconstriction.

Highly visionary.

Started off with sleepiness and I suspected this to be gramine: the same effect I get from Phalaris grass, but it might also have been my own natural tiredness.

The time dilation was profound: 30 minutes after drinking felt like I was in the experience for hours even though the visuals were still faint. Non DMT tryptamines were probably present but the general feel was always pleasant.

Close to two hours in and the visual colors and patterns were really in my face. And it was working in synergy with rue and not suppressing it like in my Phalaris aquatica experiences.

The taste was quite a surprise: extremely salty instead of sweet. I had harvested it a few hundred meters from the beach, that might be the reason. But apart from being hundreds of kilometers away from the phragmites which I had tested over 10 years ago, the morphology also has differences. I am sure that genetics/strain is an important factor for phragmites potency. I had recently discovered that there actually is a different species of phragmites growing close to my area.

I will be studying the rhizomes further to get to know this plant better. I will also test the flowers when they show up.

Cheers.

 
Triglav
#23 Posted : 7/17/2020 7:16:59 AM

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Dithyramb thanks for the report! And that is some good news. I found Phragmites australis very very close to the spot where I found Phalaris arundinacea, so I might try to work with it in the future as well.
 
dithyramb
#24 Posted : 7/17/2020 8:01:03 AM

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Thanks for reading, Triglav!

Ä° had tried up to 250g of another strain many years ago and got no hint of DMT. Ä° don't remember if I had harvested submerged roots. Ä° am excited to hear your results. According to rumor, after the middle of summer the roots lose their potency, so we don't have much time left this year.

Ä° think 200 fresh grams is a reasonable amount, a workable potency as this plant produces huge amounts of biomass.

My experience was not part of a diet and I need a long term proper study to be sure that this can be an ayahuasca analogue ingredient.
 
Triglav
#25 Posted : 7/17/2020 8:14:19 AM

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dithyramb

Do we have any clear idea about which rhizomes are better to harvest ? Maybe those under water, or are those on dry land also good to use ? Also there is the question of when to harvest - it seems morning is the best bet. This time you had great success with the grass, so how did you do it ?

Since the time is running out and still have a lot of work left with Phalaris and other projects maybe I will skip Phragmites this year and continue next spring.

Nonetheless, I will be following these explorations happily.
 
dithyramb
#26 Posted : 7/17/2020 11:10:55 AM

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Triglav, there is not enough data for officially established guidelines, but the rumors are that the rhizomes are more potent when submerged, in the morning, in Spring, and when fresh vs dried.

My rhizomes were a month old after harvesting already. Their fresh state could be more potent. And I had harvested in midday through the afternoon, partly from dry soil, partly from a swamp.

Good luck on your studies, brother.

 
dithyramb
#27 Posted : 7/19/2020 1:43:01 PM

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I have completed my second trial with rue and phragmites rhizome. Once again the experience was very gentle (independent from dose) and benign as well as visionary. I will refrain from concluding that this is a workable ayahuasca analogue ingredient before extensive experience and study.

In my experience, I somehow had the feeling that the leaves might be a better part to use. I am aware that the leaves are never mentioned in the psychedelic literature, also that a lot of these insights during medicine experiences can be mere brain-salad, especially when done outside the context of a diet. Anyhow, during the experience I was reminded of my experience with the roots of rue; that it was a potent carrier of beta carbolines but not suitable for psychedelic medicine work; the energy was closed, the spirit was mute. So far not feeling a significant intelligence in the rhizomes, I suspected that the leaves or flowers of the common reed might be the actual carrier of the communicative intelligence of the plant. Just maybe.

And then I encountered this interesting 1969 paper on Phragmites communis (now synonymized with P. australis) which states:

Quote:
on an overall basis the aerial part of the plant had
the maximum content of the alkaloid mixture. The submerged and underground portions possessed a comparatively lower alkaloid content.


On page 18 there is a table on the indole content of various parts of the plant, and on page 22 there is a table on the total alkaloid content. The paper does not explicitly mention DMT. But it is a study on one strain of P. australis which could hint at the possible alkaloid distribution in other strains. The strain I found definitely produces DMT in the rhizomes, so the possibility exists that it produces DMT in the rest of the plant as well. And perhaps in some strains where DMT is not detected in significant amounts in the rhizomes, the aerial parts might be a better place to look?

It also has information on when the alkaloid content was highest (May-July), in the entire plant.

Also came across a paper on the genetic diversity of Phragmites in Europe.

This strain which I have been drinking is from the Mediterranean coast, almost certainly a different strain (Genetic hyrbid with P. frutescens or P. mauritianus?) than the one that I failed to find dmt in many years ago, which was far away in the mainland in a different climate and with different morphology. I think we can safely conclude that there is much unexplored and undocumented in the genus of Phragmites in the DMT/psychoactivity context. Some strains might as well surprise us with the magic of their leaves/stems/flowers? I will do the best I can to find out this year and in the coming years.
 
dithyramb
#28 Posted : 7/28/2020 10:09:33 PM

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Ä° have made another harvest of Phragmites, including the leaves and stems which I intend to test also.

Flowering has begun and I have taken care to harvest only from stems that have not flowered yet. This experiment will also show if the threshold for significant drop in alkaloid content occurs after flowering (which I think is most likely) or with simply approaching the end of the summer.

Also last time I had boiled the rhizomes a month after harvesting... We will also see the difference of boiling soon after harvesting now.

Ä° have three experiences with prhagmites rhizome and rue so far. My impression is that it is very safe, gentle and workable. Ä° am pretty sure it has 5 MeO DMT in it, but I never felt that this posed a problem. The onset brings a strong somnolence and it gradually resides after the experience starts. Ä°t does not have the physical side effects or the unconsciousness which I experienced with Phalaris aquatica.

Experientially it feels like a light/glow is added to rue which it really lets through (which is very good!) but I have not felt a contributing intelligence to the medicine so far. Visually it has been giving ambiguous patterns. Let's see how fresh rhizomes will be, and also the rest of the plant! Ä° would love to see that it is more potent when fresh...
 
dithyramb
#29 Posted : 8/1/2020 4:34:29 PM

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Here is one "historical document" on the efficacy of phragmites as an ayahuasca analogue.

https://bibliography.map.../default/resource/13099

I wanted to note that I actually can't verify whether the non DMT tryptamine was 5 MeO DMT or bufotenine or both. All I can say is that it feels like DMT is not the only tryptamine present.
 
dithyramb
#30 Posted : 8/1/2020 11:37:58 PM

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Experience report.

This is my 4th experience with oral rue seeds and phragmites rhizomes.

First of all, this brew turned out significantly more potent than the brew from my previous harvest (100g fresh now was stronger than 200g fresh before). I assume it is because I processed and boiled within a few days after harvesting rather than a month as in last time. So fresh is much more potent, that seems confirmed.

Also, the time of year (end of July) and that the reeds had started flowering is noteworthy. There are reports (both anecdotal and scientific) that the alkaloid content drops significantly at the end of July and also when flowering starts. Ä° had harvested only from stalks which had not flowered yet. Perhaps that was key.

Once again I felt either the roots are not the right part, or the plant is not the right match for an ayahuasca analogue. Ä°t felt a little offscale and spiritually inert as with my previous experiences.

There was an abundance of visual activity mostly consisting of dark and ambiguous patterns. Some meaningful visions, but it felt like it was despite the reed (exclusively from rue) rather than with it's support.

Another thing is - I am sorry to say - there was a noticeable feeling of stimulation/blood pressure rise this time. I know this feeling very well from Phalaris aquatica. It was not to a degree that I would call disturbing as was with aquatica, but I reckon it should be taken as a warning sign nevertheless. Hordenine is an alkaloid also noted to be found in phragmites.

 
dithyramb
#31 Posted : 8/13/2020 9:37:10 AM

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Ä° have tested a different strain of Phragmites from a very distant area as an ayahuasca analogue and the experience was a nice positive...

Ä°t felt like DMT (bright visuals) + 5 MeO DMT (intense meltdown of mind/ego surpassing the intensity in the visual field) + Beta carbolines (unusual clarity and smoothness in energy flow). I did not feel any side effects, no rise in blood pressure (no hordenine or other tyramines) and no "distancing" of visuals or sedativeness, which I hypothesize are the effects of gramine.

Masculine, firm spirit. It felt like a preferable version of Acacia confusa to me. Very compatible with singing.

 
dithyramb
#32 Posted : 8/23/2020 9:11:28 PM

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I've been having great success with phragmites used as an ayahuasca analogue lately... Definitely not classic with the presence of 5 meo dmt, but a very agreeable overall effect with plenty of dmt visuals, a feeling of cosmic connection, and no side effects. Seems to be especially purgative from the bowels; this might be related to the "promoting production of bodily fluids" effect according to TCM.

I have even shared it with some friends in a circle and the energy was very powerful, very masculine and forceful though very gentle and smooth at the same time. It is unique and in time as my studies mature it will take its place among possible rue admixtures. So far liberty caps, Phalaris brachystachys, and phragmites have proven themselves to be potential local tryptaminic counterparts to rue.

It is interesting how the visual style of the local phragmites and brachystachys are similar with spirals and "stairways."
 
Triglav
#33 Posted : 8/24/2020 2:08:05 PM

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I always love to read about your experiments, dear dithyramb. Thank you. Thumbs up
 
dithyramb
#34 Posted : 8/26/2020 11:54:54 PM

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Cheers brother, thank you for reading 💚
 
king.tryptamine
#35 Posted : 8/27/2020 6:39:48 AM

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dithyramb wrote:
I've been having great success with phragmites used as an ayahuasca analogue lately... Definitely not classic with the presence of 5 meo dmt, but a very agreeable overall effect with plenty of dmt visuals, a feeling of cosmic connection, and no side effects. Seems to be especially purgative from the bowels; this might be related to the "promoting production of bodily fluids" effect according to TCM.

I have even shared it with some friends in a circle and the energy was very powerful, very masculine and forceful though very gentle and smooth at the same time. It is unique and in time as my studies mature it will take its place among possible rue admixtures. So far liberty caps, Phalaris brachystachys, and phragmites have proven themselves to be potential local tryptaminic counterparts to rue.

It is interesting how the visual style of the local phragmites and brachystachys are similar with spirals and "stairways."


Thats awesome dithyramb! I'm happy to hear my lead was promising.

I find it interesting that your local sources are connected. Could this be some kind of hint toward the connection of nature and the importance of setting when tripping, like how different places have different vibes, and for what reasons that might be? Either way, Im happy to hear about your experience.

Sorry I haven't been very active in my research. I just started working, and I've really been focused on getting my life to where I want it to be. Ive also been working on myself and experimenting with different psyches.

I smoked some dmt recently, Im thinking its 5-meo. It reminded me what its like to truly be alive, and this was a fantastic wake up call for me.

I kinda missed this season for it, but I plan on prioritizing research with it next season. I figured out that my naphtha was old and I just need to get some fresh naphtha.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing more about your experiments. I may actually attempt a late season extraction sometime soon because I attempted a year or two ago, but didn't finish it due to potential trouble someone could've caused.

I will make a post if I do end up doing so.
 
dithyramb
#36 Posted : 8/27/2020 7:39:24 AM

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Hey, King t! Thank you for being a catalyzer for me to take another look at phragmites.

I have assumed that it is flowering rather than directly time of year which brings down alkaloid levels and either I have been confirmed or the phragmites around here is super potent in the spring - I continue to get success harvesting from submerged, and unflowered reeds (the vast majority have flowered).

Based on my experience with other DMT containing plants and the information on their potencies, I am estimating the potency of the reeds here to be around 0.1 - 0.5 percent (taking into account a certain potentiation with a lesser amount of 5 MeO DMT in the plant).

Good luck on your spiritual journey!
 
king.tryptamine
#37 Posted : 8/29/2020 11:23:57 PM

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So, Im looking into cultivation for high alkaloid contents as well as trying to find how soil nutrients affect the content and how the soil varies in composition over the years too.

Given the lack of research for phragmites in these areas, and Phragmites similarities to Phalaris, I am using phalaris as a research starting point and will further my research from there.

I found on article talking about cultivation for optimal alkaloid levels which I will link to this post.

PDF file
 
dithyramb
#38 Posted : 8/30/2020 1:45:53 PM

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For me phragmites is practically a kind of "phalaris," biologically, and in energy/effect/spirit. A remarkably wise one.
 
dithyramb
#39 Posted : 9/6/2020 12:41:45 PM

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Here is an example of an unfamiliar strain of Phragmites I have come upon in my recent travels. Really short - growing a meter or two, and has incredibly dense and magnificent panicles. I will try this also some day.

I used to think "the future is Phalaris." Now I feel the future is more so Phragmites.

dithyramb attached the following image(s):
IMG-20200905-WA0003.jpg (72kb) downloaded 43 time(s).
 
king.tryptamine
#40 Posted : 9/16/2020 6:24:33 AM

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dithyramb wrote:
Here is an example of an unfamiliar strain of Phragmites I have come upon in my recent travels. Really short - growing a meter or two, and has incredibly dense and magnificent panicles. I will try this also some day.

I used to think "the future is Phalaris." Now I feel the future is more so Phragmites.



That variation looks pretty cool.

Also, I would have to agree. I've thought so since I originally started dealing with phragmites after having done a lot of research into phalaris. Phragmites really does just seem more viable, at least from how I'm looking at it.

I always look forward to hearing about your experiences. As always, its good to see your post.

My research is still going slow. Honestly, Im looking for a new job and its taking up a lot of the time I don't spend working. I will get on top of it soon though.
 
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